Old Heavens Gate bashing article by Christian w/Sawyers comments to date

I, Sawyer have responded to the following article:

Article begins:

A Christian’s Reflections on the “Heaven’s Gate” Cult
by T.L. Hubeart Jr. Basfaulty@aol.com
© 1997 by T.L. Hubeart Jr.

——————————————————————————–

In late March 1997, stories of a mass suicide by members of a California cult called “Heaven’s Gate” exploded onto the national scene.

***Sawyer correction:
They were not a California cult as they were only living in California for about a year at that time. They spent most of their time in Texas.
***
Thirty-nine cultists, including cult leader Marshall Applewhite, ingested a deadly mixture of phenobarbital and vodka, and were found lying in bunk beds and covered with purple shrouds in an estate north of San Diego. Videotapes and notes found after the suicides showed that they believed that they were shedding their bodies in order to meet a UFO purportedly hiding behind the Hale-Bopp comet. Facts later emerged indicating that Applewhite had been organizing a religion around himself and his wife Bonnie Nettles since the mid 70s, using an eclectic mixture of ideas and terms from Christianity, New Age thought, and the world of computers.{1}

***Sawyer correction:
re: “shedding their bodies to meet a UFO.” They never said this thus more media hype/misinformation. They had considered whether a spacecraft was hiding behind the comet but on their website, heavensgate.com they said it did not matter whether there actually was a craft as the comet had served as a “marker” or “sign” of the timing of their “exit”.

re: Applewhite and Nettles relationship:They were never married, nor were they ever sexual in any way, shape or form according to both their testimony to their students & observations over 10+ years in their presense. Applewhite said he wondered upon first being befriended by Nettles if she was interested in him in a romantic way but soon realized she wasn’t. Also, he said, at that time he was never physically attracted to Nettles. So whoever the source of this misinformation is either ill-informed or lying.

re: Applewhite organizing a “religion”. A religion is generally defined as a “system of beliefs”. All the worlds religions started as a result of politicization of what the Kingdom of God did. Every religion started in objection to whatever
“religion” had become traditionally accepted before it. Religions all seek to accumulate more and more membership. Applehwhite and Nettles sought to diminish the numbers of followers starting in 1976 a year after their initial public presentation in L.A. March of 1975.

They actually exploded onto the “INTERNATIONAL” scene, reported world wide for every eye to see that had at all been in touch with the global media.
***

Some of the outreach of Applewhite, who called himself “Do,” was done via the Internet, and at this writing much of the material posted by Applewhite and his disciples was still freely available by that means. This material affords a case study in the way that such cults operate and achieve dominance in the minds of prospective disciples.

*** Sawyers comments
Though there is lots of evidence how some cults and even most acheive dominance, it would be a stretch to refer to Ti and Do’s group w/that term. Had they wanted to dominate propective disciples why did they make it so hard to stay in the group,not by telling students it would be hard but by constantly doing things that made it easy to doubt the authenticity of who they said they were. For instance,when they decided to tell us that we needed to give our will to them, we learned from Do, after Ti left her body(died from cancer of the liver, that maybe started to surface in the eye, two years prior) that she thought telling us that, would mean half of us would leave the group in response. Before that Ti, in April of 1976 said publically at their Okahoma City that the “harvest” was over, referring to the time period in which they and their current students would be going around the US giving public meetings to gather their “sheep”. When she announced this, it was also changing Ti and Do’s previous view that they would be killed in what they called a “demonstation” according to the surface interpretation of Revelations Chapter 11. Thus when they did this, their students were in fact “tempted to doubt” Ti and Do’s authenticity as the two witnesses, yet another proof of their lack of wanting to dominate the minds of prospective disciples. I have a dozen additional examples. Now I know this is much different than perhaps all other organizations termed cults though all the current traditionally started untraditionally and thus as cults and all these traditional organizations are actually far more engaged in seeking to dominante and hold onto their followers. This is a prime evidence of how Ti and Do’s organization stood out among all others.

Also to describe what Ti and Do did as “outreach” shows they are thinking of it as many Christian organizations do. It was strictly a blowing of the horn, an announcement. The meetings I gave generally began with an announcement that The Two Witnesses are here, the return of the same family that was here 2000 years ago in the person incarnate in the physical vehicle named, Jesus. When Ti and Do determined that the announcement was made sufficiently for all those who were looking for them, as that was largely planned ahead of Ti and Do’s incarnation, then they ceased blowing the horn and went to phase two, the “overcoming process” – aiding the students to overcome their human limitations while forming a genuine bond with the incarnate Older Member(s) as they referred to existing elder members of the Level Above Human, previously spoken of as Kingdom of Heaven/God.

Of course those who fear even considering that Ti and Do might very well be the only genuine “next coming” of that family of Holy Souls (pneuma=spirit,soul,mind) see any evalulation of Ti and Do’s group as a study of them as just another of the many “cults” therefore predetermining/pre-judging any new group and especially so if they use terminology or talk about concepts and ideas they’ve been brainwashed to look at as taboo.

***

In their book Cult Watch: What You Need To Know About Spiritual Deception,{2} John Ankerberg and John Weldon remark on some “common characteristics” shared by cults. For one, “Cultic religion is often less than frank concerning its real beliefs, whether by design or ignorance.”{3} We need not therefore be surprised to find out that “Heaven’s Gate” attracted potential recruits to its lectures with posters that were “misleading, making it appear that the discussion was simply about UFOs.”{4} Also, even though the suicide of its members gives it perhaps an unintended irony, the cult’s web site continues to carry a paper entitled “Our Position Against Suicide”! Nevertheless, even this paper shows how malleable definitions can be in the hands of a cult: “The true meaning of ‘suicide’ is to turn against the Next Level when it is being offered.”{5}

*** Sawyer’s comments:
It’s always interesting to see people write books about new movements, lumping them all into a category of “spiritual deception” while I’d bet all the mainstream organizations go nearly completly unevaluated by the same criterias.

re: Ti and Do’s frankness re: their belief and alleged misleads: If they had read the first posters they used in 1975 that were the only posters used during their very brief(less than 1 year) public offerring of their information, they would have seen the statement, “This is NOT a discussion of UFO sightings”, thus they were WRONG in saying they used such to attract. Actually Ti & Do did not approve of the use of UFO on their poster. Their students from the first meeting in LA chose that poster design and did not check their decision with Ti and Do, but once it was in use, they decided to continue to use it. Re: Ti & Do’s defintion of Suicide stated, this is completely in alignment with what Jesus said, that if you try to “save your life in this world you will lose it in the next”. Also Jesus said that in his decision to “lay down his life” for his sleep, that today would be classified a “suicide” as he voluntarily gave himself to his captors KNOWING and forcasting that they would KILL him BUT that it wouldn’t kill his real nature, his SOUL. If Jesus considered his most real nature the Soul then the sin of suicide is willingly allowing oneself to suffer the death of their Soul.
***

Another characteristic in Ankerberg and Weldon (one which overlaps with the lack of frankness mentioned above) is “the rejection of biblical teaching,” often because these have supposedly been superseded by new revelations.{6} In the “Heaven’s Gate” cult, there was a convenient selectivity as to the use of the Bible. On the one hand, the cult made the following statement:

*** Sawyer’s comments:
To the exact 180 degree contrary that I have scores of proves of going accross virtually every Christian denomination, Ti and Do were 100% referenced in their behavior and ways to the total body of at the very least all of the record of what Jesus said. I don’t say this just to support Ti and Do. I suggest anyone go to heavensgate.com and look at the section on bible versus to see the range of scriptures there and those were only the very tiny tip of the ice berg. What you won’t hardly see at all are Paul’s writings as Paul was to anyone with eyes to see clearly a Luciferian plant – false prophet even directly related to Jesus prophecy that when he left many will come “in/using, His NAME (His names was Jesus), saying they were the Christ with great signs and wonders to fool even the elect (if the Next Level didn’t protect them). So who comes to Paul, but a mystical and shocking Paul Blind light that blinds him physically for a time and talks to him and says they are Jesus, exactly as Jesus predicted. Now I’ve written papers on this as well so I’m going into this in debth here. But look under sawyerhg.wordpress.com for my articles.

Also in fact next to zero Christians quote even 1/10 of the total of Jesus quotes. Now Ti and Do though using the new testement as the last record of the last incarnation as a reference material, they didn’t use it exclusively nor without further evaluation and intpretation.

Re: so called New Revelations: they really did not have many if any of these. In fact most of what they said was a repeat of what Jesus said, but in “plainer” talk, no more parables, as Jesus said would happen upon his return, “talk plainly of the kingdom”.

***

We hope you won’t misunderstand our use of these Bible quotes. Though most people think of these records as religious, they are for the most part, in spite of their many inaccuracies, the only historical record we have of periods when the Next Level was relating to man. A great percentage of the materials have been corrupted by mistranslations and councils of so-called scholars. . . .{7}

At the same time, this “corrupted” Bible was repeatedly referenced by the cult, both by allusion (e.g., phrases like “those who had ears to hear” and “speak in tongues”){8} and directly:

We can’t blame you for “buying into” the “Luciferian” program. What else has been available during those periods when no Representative was present? Almost nothing – save some warnings in the Scriptures, i.e., Luke 20:34-36, Luke 21:23, Mark 12:25, and Mark 13:17-19. Check these out. {9}

The fact that such scriptures as these–

Mark 12:25 (KJV) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Mark 13:17 (KJV) But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

–lose their meaning when taken out of context is, of course, part of the cultic design. In fact, it would have been well for their souls had Applewhite’s disciples read the verses surrounding their leader’s citations.{10} They would then have found out that the real “Luciferian” was Applewhite himself, a “false Christ” (Mk. 13:21-22) who, unlike the true Christ (Mk. 12:24), downgraded the scriptures because they did not testify of him (cf. John 5:39).

*** Sawyers comments:
re: bible mistranslations. If anyone has looked up any and/or all of the words used in any one scripture, you will find that it can be said many ways. But for transators who didn’t know of their REAL context, they were driven to come up with their best shot which was often far off the mark.

Interestingly that this writer and/or the book writers don’t say what was taken out of context with the useage of these above quotes. What is the alleged correct “context”. All too often Christians lacking understanding the context make up a context and the very fact of making it up becomes the law for other Christians to repeat. Thus is the story of the “camel through the eye of the needle”. jesus said, it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god in the heavens. So how do all the aristocrats and the leaders of the churches with their vast wealth justify that. Well some say, that the “eye of the needle” was what they called a certain archway in Jerusalem and that camel’s loaded with supplies on it’s back needed to kneel to get under this arch so it was very hard. But the term wasn’t related to arch, it was related to sewing. But then some think, but Jesus also said it wasn’t tottaly impossible but they don’t understand the context in which he said that as he wasn’t in the egotistical cement of thinking his Father couldn’t make an exception so he said, even that would be possible though such would be an extreme longshot and far more than a slight difficulty but like so many Luciferians stimulated ideas, they reduce the truth to make it more easily digestible by the average person so a leader of a group can grab more membership.

Note the writers accuastion that Applewhites followers did not read his own citations which is far from the truth as I can testify in my 19 years in the group.

Also, citing a scripture of false prophet identification and saying this speaks of Applewhite but NOT saying HOW/WHY is typical of the many Christians I talk to. They say, Applewhite is a false prophet and by saying it, gives their followers something to grab onto just like occurs within many governmental branches when they are trying to hide or avoid the issue at hand or fear their consituencies not buying their books anymore or going to their web sites or churches/synagoges,temples, etc.

If they want to make such an accusation then state the facts. Remember that saying “the devil is in the details”. Maybe I’m misapplying that saying, but I’d say the devil is in the generalization, the avoidence of the details.

***

Yet another characteristic from Ankerberg and Weldon is “an authoritarian element leading to spiritual intimidation and often the suppression of independent, critical thinking.”{11} Much of this factor can also be traced to the Jonestown, Guyana cult of Jim Jones, which led to the mass suicide of 912 people in November 1978.{12} One of Jones’ flock who survived Jonestown described the surrender of her will to Jones:

You voluntarily chose not to question. You voluntarily chose to allow someone else to make your decisions. Then you kind of turned off this logical portion of your mind which people use to make everyday decisions. You stopped using it. And eventually you lost the capability of making decisions. {13}

The “spiritual intimidation” mentioned before appears very clearly in the following Applewhite statement:

The next statement that we will make will be the “Big Tester,” the one that the “lower forces” would use to clearly have you discredit or disregard us. That statement is: Unless you are currently an active student or are attempting to become a student of the present Representative from the Kingdom of Heaven – you ARE STILL “of the world,” having done no significant separation from worldliness, and you are still serving the opposition to the Kingdom of Heaven. This statement sounds – to humans who have been so carefully programmed by the “lower forces” – arrogant, pompous, or egotistical at the least – as if by taking this stand we had something to gain – as if we were seeking recognition as “Deity” or as self-appointed prophets.{14}
*** Sawyer’s comments:
This Jonestown person does present a certain parrallel. When I joined, though it wasn’t spelled out, I knew I was looking to the TWO, then Bo(Do,Marshall Herff Applewhite) and Peep(Ti,Bonnie Lu Truesdale Nettles) as my teachers thereafter. Up until that point I guess I could have easily proven myself to be quite the independant thinker, as I refused to join with the Marahishi Mehesh Yogi, nor with Sri Chinmoy, nor with the Sufi’s I danced with, nor with the Jesus freaks who took care of me when my truck broke down in Yakima Washington,and fixed it and who I debated a great deal with, as I was a Jesus believer just not in religious terms and found there to be many what seemed like contradictions in the New Testement. I had also tried to homestead in British Columbia, Canada but did not aquire a green card nor visa to work legally,to where I was arrested and deported because of,which is why I was in Yakima Washington. Nor did I feel compelled to join the Hare Krishna movements that I often ran into. I had moved away from my parents where I had a relatively good upbringing, though that didn’t stop me from getting into the hippy scenes in the early 70’s,right out of high school where I’d started using marijuna and LSD a bit, (which by the way never led to heroin addiction as I was told would in high school). I was also expected to be drafted out of high school into the Vietnam war and I remember saying, “there’s no way I’m going to the other side of the planet to fight someone else’s war” which was not the result of hearing anyone’s anti-war retorick – I just knew that was far, far away from anything I would do, quite the independant thinker I guess. And I remember saying I would go to Canada rather that get arrested. Perhaps that seemed like big talk for a high schooler but I ended up just 1 year or so later hitchiking from Long Island, NY to Montreal, Canada, then to Vancouver, then to Tijuana Mexico and then back via the same route over a summer with my girlfriend. We were robbed once, picked up by an active bank robber and were threatened several times. Before that I’d been to antiwar demonstrations where there were always some very strange characters who also at times threatened people and my girlfriend and I ended up shacking up together against our parents will as she was jewish and I catholic but we still made it work and I have lots and lots of stories to tell about how great was my indendant thinking and believe it or not, many of those who joined with Ti and Do in the 1970’s could tell similar variances of stories that would demonstrate that their group was jammed packed with very independant thinkers who had rejected much of the status quo worldliness. And many were not hippys either. There was a judges son who was a evironmentalist (ollody, cabot van sinderen), college grad, a computer programer, a technical writer both college grads, and lggody (John Craig) was a successful rancher, on and on and on I could describe the student body. I’m giving this tiny shapshot to say that…although we all did agree to give our will over to Ti and Do,which can appear to be the same as with Jim Jones, it may well be that Jim Jones and ALL the other cults were the Lucifer created facsimili’s of the planned Kingdom of God (Level Above Human) motis operendi as taught by Moses and Jesus (the greatest commandment was to love(give service to) the Lord your God with ALL your heart(emotions), ALL your mind(thoughts), ALL your body(actions) and ALL your strength(efforts).

***
The cult leader thus appeals to those who may not be well-grounded in their faith with a statement possessing biblical undertones. For example, Paul had said of the true gospel:

1Cor 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

*** Sawyers Comments:
To use Paul as an example of anything is blasphemy. He never KNEW Jesus personally. He was given apostleship by Jesus nor by Jesus apostles. He was self declared. It was a spirit or space alien who technologically blinded Paul and then told Paul he was Jesus speaking to him, (what Jesus had just warned would happen after he left, thus fulfilling that prophecy). Now that does’t mean all Paul said is off track of what Jesus said. Paul did probably hear things from Peter and other disciples as he at first sought after them to persectute and banish and even kill them, as Paul was a pharasee and hated these until he was blinded and appears to have been converted by, which is NOT the way the Kingdom of God convinces anyone because it takes away their free will to believe by performing “signs” – magic to woo someone into belief.

So what Paul is saying is that discernment of things related to the Holy Spirit(MIND/Soul/discarnate Greek:pneuma means all four) is GIVEN to some while those not given such, thus are still in their “natural” unaware state see those who are given this “gift” as foolish, as this Christian writer seems to demonstrate towards his evaluation of Applewhite and Nettles.

But in using this Paul quote I suppose he is suggesting Ti and Do’s students were the ones without discernment yet I knew nearly all of the 39 very well over many years, though not their human history but knew them for who they were then and there is little to no evidence of naivity, or being easily led – to the contrary, most were very stubborn and hard headed in some ways.

Furthermore, Ti and Do required us to periodically (like at least one time each year of the 19 I was with them) take at least an hour to not have any distractions or other’s company (as we mostly always did things in twos and crews) and try to think about what else in the world we might still want to do.

And some did leave thereafter such instructed self exam times. In fact in 1976, 19 believers who had maintained their desire to be in the Ti and Do group following a year trapsing around the country holding public meetings were seperated from the larger group by Ti and Do who said to the remaining 72 that the 19 did not make the first cut. How strange that is for a cult leader to instigate some leaving against their will. This came after some had been reported to be still having sex and using marijuna, both of which were prophibited in Ti and Do’s group. But one of those who had had sex, was not among the 19 and was one who stayed in the group til their exit in 1997, thus it wasn’t cut and dry that any degree of sexuality with self or with another constituted dismissal automatically which I have more examples of.

Part of my points here are that there were many, many chances to leave Ti and Do’s group because they really, really did not want anyone there who did not want to be there AND that was evidenced by their desire to follow Ti and Do’s RULES. No one was ever, ever held against their will (though there was 1 situation 1 time that lasted for a couple weeks where one member who was Ti and Do’s first disciple,who had made Ti promise her (flxody, Snelson (who is on a youtube video supporting ti and do) that should she want to leave their discipleship they (ti and do) wouldn’t allow her to. In around 1982 or so, flxody did want to leave and she was evidencing strange uncharacteristic behaviors that I witnessed, so Ti and Do created a situation where she was restricted to one room during maybe a week’s time at most. She was not deprived of any comforts or food and was never physically restrained though her door was locked and she was kept away from anything that she might use to hurt herself, as she was acting unpredictably and did say she wanted to leave. After that week, Ti said, she could not keep her from leaving any more and that she regreted making her that promise so TiandDo bought her a plane ticket to Rolla, Missouri where she had once lived and still had relatives and gave her some money and each of us in the group said farewells to her and she had tears in her eyes and was taken to the airport. Years later when the doors to membeship were opened for the second time over then nearly 20 years she, whom we’d still had a way of contacting her, asked to again be of some service to Ti and Do. Thus in 1993 a partnership was sent to her home and as a result she decided to join us again and this time with her husband ablody. Both were in their late 70’s and came to live with un in California but it becamse apparent that she wasn’t going to be happy keeping up with all our “procedures” and “ways” we’d adopted and expected everyone to abide/thrive by,so she was given a task to have a type of half way house back in her hometown and she and abl seemed happy to do so.
***

However, the proclaimers of the true gospel had encouraged and still encourage the seeker to use his intellect to determine the truth or falsity of Jesus’ claims. The church of Berea, for instance, “received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). Jesus Himself urged the searching of the prophets as a verification of His Person (Jn. 5:39), going so far as to link belief in Moses’ writings with belief in Him (Jn. 5:46-47).

*** Sawyer’s Comments:
Since when was Jesus quoted in “acts”. Perhaps he was, I’m not sure but what I do know is that Jesus had no problem with anyone’s using their intellect, however he did say that he was thanking God for revealing the truth to the simpler minded as intellect can often get in the way. He compared a believer with a child in that the term belief was really akin to being trusting and even naive. But then if one is trusting and naive and because of it is misled by a false prophet then what we have are religions because the Leaders in the Kingdom of Heaven prepare ahead their prospective “seeded” membership, those who take to the nourishment of their seed as seen in Jesus parables, being those who appear to others as being blind, naive, faithful because they SEE more than others as other’s were not so prepped to see and/or had their seed consumed by “cares of the world”. In other words a beleiver’s faith must EXCEED that of the learned. The learned mostly reley on their study of scriptures and one big problem in relying on them alone is that some of what it termed scripture was not from the Kingdom of God incarnate members. Case in point: Paul of Tarsus as we’ve described is hardly a good example of anything Jesus said. He was telling people to look to him for leadership. When did he Quote Jesus in his letters but following Paul was easy as pie, requireing only minimal belief with no action where Jesus said, if you believe/love him then you must “feed my sheep” and how do we feed his sheep, but by spreading EXACTLY what he said according to his vernacular. However, even this eventually over thousands of years become near impossible to do because of how much is lost in translations by people who just don’t really understand the best context.
***

Applewhite had no use for anyone with a searching mind. Rather, he looked for the type of people of whom Milton said, “There is not any burden that some would gladlier post off to another than the charge and care of their religion.”{15} His strategy, as seen above, involved shutting off the minds of his hearers by pretending to have a gnosis or hidden knowledge that those “of the world” cannot receive. The appeal for hearers of being among the few enlightened ones–to put it bluntly, a form of snob appeal–has been a great motivator throughout human history. Obviously, many of Applewhite’s victims felt that checking one’s brains at the door was a small price to pay to be among the “chosen.”

***Sawyer’s Comments:
I’ve already described how we hardly “checked our brains at the door”. Did he know of all the UFO books that were brought into our library in the 1980’s. And did he know of the major dietary study we did and all the health related programs we were a part of. Did he know that we started an organic produce company in San Diego and the health diet book we wrote, published and distributed which was all state of the art information about the optimum health for a human being. Then there was the video company in 1989 that was based on all the UFOlogy. Then there was the major 12 step program we tried to help sexahaulics with. And we had two or three computer companies, two of which I was a founder of, called Think Link and Word Wise where we employed a number of fellow students. We also started re-writing parts of the bible.I with srrody developed a application we sold to a Houston Bank that did batch credit card processing through Mcdonald Douglas computer system. We sold it for $1600.00 in 1988 or so. Then there were the outings to movies of all sorts throughout the 19 years I was with them. One outing went to an Eckencar gathering in a bank meeting room where we simply observed. We wern’t there to try to convert anyone, didn’t even want to. Then another time we went to a Theosopher meeting and again just observed. Meanwhile half of our group, so apprx 12 to 20 over most of those years were the members that held full time jobs. I learned to be a computer programmer making 20,30,40$/hr. at times. I learned to be a Sous Chef at Tascosa Country Club in Amarillo, TX and then a baker and Pastry Chef for the Bradford 5 star hotel in Austin Texas. We had a business in Amarillo called, Astrologics that gave lectures on all spiritual subjects from ghosts to ufo’s. We built two movie scripts that had bites from Brad Steiger and a Stanly Kubeck related office because one of our members worked with Howard Kurtz on documentaries. All of these organizations were run by students looking to Ti and/or Do (just Do after Ti’s vehicle died). We had satelitte dishes before there was an internet and we watched many christian televangelists, too many to mention, but included the Van Ipees (sp?), and even had a member working in the Crouch organization near L.A. We watched the Jews for Jesus guy, the 7th Day adventists, the crystal cathedral fellow and some theologian in arkansas as well as Copeland and many, many others. We watched news every day. One two occasions we visited family alone without shaparone. We were flown to wherever we wanted to go. I visited my mother and father and siblings in 1985 and 1987.

So how much evidence is there that we were limited in any way as we always could have left and had many, many opportunities and many did.

In fact, this was far more open an organization than ANY other I’d bet upon in a court of law, so this person is blowing smoke because he is afraid of looking at it all in any other way.

***

However, anyone who is “Rooted and built up” and “stablished” in Jesus Christ (Col. 2:7) realizes instantly that such cultic preaching as Applewhite’s of “another gospel” renders the preacher “accursed” (Gal. 1:8-9). A Christian firm in the faith sees through the cultic psychobabble and attempted manipulation. It is weak believers, “unable to distinguish cultic belief and practice from what they learned as Christians,”{16} or those who have been raised in a “Christian” culture but who have never really believed, who are the most susceptible.
*** Sawyer’s Comments:
Again, if Paul’s quotes demonstrate the roots and stablished ultimate belief and faith in Jesus Christ then they can call themselves Christians all they want but are far from realization of the true teachings of the person of Jesus. It’s interesting to hear the term psychobabble in relationship to Ti and Do when that’s what atheists call religious jargon and I have a TON of proof that that’s what the religious Jews thought of what Jesus said when all Jesus was saying was the same as what Moses and many of the prophets said. Of course Jesus also brought updated thinking/expectations requiremens for discipleship which the religious of any time period hate as it challenges them and makes them look insincere to their followers. The fact is that many Christian organizations should really be called Paulinians as they worship and quote most everything he said while he says little to nothing Jesus was quoted to have said and they at the same time hardly ever quote Jesus or if they do claim he couldn’t have meant what he said literally because it would be too hard for their believers to adhere to such extremes and they’d lose their big church empire budgets and outreaches.

***

The media has seemed very impressed with the ability of the “Heaven’s Gate” cult to lead thirty-nine deluded people to their deaths. But given the fact that these individuals were proselytizing actively and reaching out via the Internet, their final harvest seems rather pathetic. Nor are the hundreds who died at Jonestown much more impressive. Even the claims of groups who count millions among their adherents, such as the Mormons, are not so substantial when one considers that a “multibillion-dollar institution” with “vast holdings in real estate, insurance, financial services, broadcasting, and publishing”{17} propels the proselytizing. By contrast, to borrow the words of Spurgeon,

*** Sawyer’s comments:
Where is there an example of media being “impressed with Heaven’s gate ability to the 39” they judge as “deluded” to their deaths? Was it the fact that they covered it at all? Did it boggle their minds? Well,those are honest responses. Sounds like this Christian is jealous of the attention they got. The reason they made their chosen exit public was to leave a splash and a splash only the real Kingdom of God could make. Even the Jonestown massecur didn’t make nearly the splash for as long followed by more documentaries and no former members having any evidence of wrongdoing amoung the leaders. Jim Jones group held guns on people and lambasted followers to kill themselves and hunted down and shot some who fled. Plus there were children a big no no for the heaven’s gate group – Why? Because a child can not decide to “overcome the world”. Additionally no other group I’m aware of were actively engaged in being removed from ALL worldliness and all human ways and behaviors in a practical way minus all the reliosity or mysticism that characterizes virtually all other groups.

And to characterize heaven’s gate group as proselytizing is another misunderstanding. Yes, they blew their horn in a face to face way in 1975-6 and then in tiny non-face to face ways starting in 1988 which was a “testing of the waters to see whether Do felt right about doing another face to face offerring”. That testing the waters resulted in putting ads in newspapers like usa today international edition and various alternative minded papers in Australia and Germany and France and England and Canada and the US and to prisions to which we did acquire interest and sent many the Beyond Human video tape series that can to date be found on youtube.com under channel name: 1riverofangels. But the result of nearly 6 months of this effort was the return of nearly a dozen former members who we had loose contacts with, who up until that moment weren’t offerred rejoining. One of these was stlody  whom actually was one of the 19 sent away in 1976 who rejoined us in about 1986 by a so called chance meetign with drrody, another of the 19 who was actively looking for us for years to try to rejoin and who bumped into nrrody and sngody who worked at the hospital in Amarillo, Texas where we were all at the time living in large travel trailors in a outdoor city camping facility. (We had three large trailors then for students and Ti and Do in their own smaller trailor. Each trailor had 12 members but could only sleep 6 at one time so we had two shifts of sleeping arrangements).Anyway we had shrunk down to 25 students I believe by the time nearly 12 rejoined which included Tllody, stlody, ablody(new member-previously flxody’s husband), flxody, evnody(new member and physical sister to stlody),jhnody from venezulua who accidentally (so to speak) happened to see the Beyond Human series played on satelitte in Venezuala and a few others who slip my mind right now. Then in 1994 we started a second face to face public meeting offerring. I was an overseer of one of the four initial groups. When we got to Chicago, and held a meeting in the University of Chicago we had two interested parties speak to us (me and my partner evnody) as I was one of the prime speakers at the meeting. When I told them we were traveling and had no money so were living off of donations day to day with no buffer, which meant we ate whatever we were offerred which we also asked for and included fast food places, these two who were strict vegans said they couldn’t eat meat. Perhaps wrongly I told them, this was one example of how they would need to drop all preconceived ideas of what they could eat as we looked to our older members for such decisions and to date that meant eating whatever was offerred us (though that wasn’t to be taken to an extreme, as we were not permitted to “dumpster dive” (as some of us had done in 1975-6). So they decided our group wasn’t for them. Some in our group thought I was making a mistake to face them with that choice but Do didn’t find fault with it. As a result of 9 1/2 months of what grew to 5 groups of about 6-8 members each, we had grown to about 48 members but then some dropped away fairly quicky when we began talking more seriously about whether or not we were willing to take it upon our selves to end our physical body’s life. Before the 1994 meetings,Do had been, actually all along seeking to know how we would exit. Were we to be picked up by a kingdom of God spacecraft? Were we going to offend some religious fanatics who would bump us off somehow. Were we to take a boat out into the ocean or gulf like cocoon to get picked up or sink and drowned or were we to drink a poison concoction. I know this is bizarre for the average person who wants to live in the world, has things they want to live for that are of the world to think anyone can be in their “right” mind to be willing to take their own life. But it shouldn’t be a surprise for anyone of any faith to believe in life after death of the physical body, somethung we will all experience thus it was simply a choice of how and when that would happen.

This was quite consistant with what Jesus did and what he expected of his disciples to be willing to “lay down their physical lives” to take up a new life in the Kingdom of God.

So this was NOT prostelitizing the way ALL other groups do it.
***

Look at the saints in the martyr age. In the early days of Christianity, when this great thought of Christ’s exceeding love was sparkling in all its freshness in the church, men were not only ready to die, but they grew ambitious to suffer, and even presented themselves by hundreds at the judgment seats of the rulers, confessing the Christ.{18}

The gospel spread throughout the Roman Empire and the world without the benefit of television advertising, web pages, or any other technical wonders. It required no flashing “Red Alert” graphics{19} or posters calling people to a UFO discussion that was really a camouflaged mission effort. These attempts to resuscitate the stillborn message of men pale in comparison with the Breath of Life that fills the true gospel message: the living Son of God, Jesus Christ. Have you heard the message of the One who died for you?

*** sawyers comments:
So is this person saying that God would not use technology to spread their message and are upset about flashing words? How petty – “swing at a gnat swallow a camel” Jesus said which may apply here but if not, this writer still says nothing, gives nothing Jesus said that can tend to prove anything Ti and Do taught and did was against what the Kingdom of God taught over the entire record we have, with the exception of upgrades as jesus provided since Moses and that Jesus said would occur upon his return – to tell us “more plainly of the kingdom and no more in parables” and other things.
***

——————————————————————————–

John 4:14 (KJV) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

***sawyers comments:
What does Jesus mean by “drinketh of the water he shall give him that springs up into everlasting life”?

Could this “water” be related to the “water” Jesus offerred the samaritan woman at the well? Might this have something to do with Jesus saying that “you must be born again OF WATER”. Thus what would it mean to “drink” that water? Is it perhaps like “eat his body”, like consume him. Did he want us to be canibles? Could to consume be a figurative way to say, “take it all into yourself, embrace his will for us, eat up every moresel from the masters table, meaning listen to and adhere to every word out of his mouth, his “water” body and do as HE did in a willingness to “give his body for his sheep” as when we enlist in his service we produce fruit by our sharing what he shares with us, with others so others have a chance to also become fruit and spread that fruit seed to yet others.

I wish I had time to look up all the scriptures I’ve referenced. There are many and that’s and understatement but it would be good for anyone reading this to search the scriptures for themselves using the keywords. Everyone can become their own translator as best we can with what we have and it’s enough. Though humans have tampered with what the Kingdom of God delivered to us, that Kingdom did not leavve us without the needed core truth about their kingdom and our potential to one day have membership in it. But it does take some digging and asking Ti and Do how to understand every verse subscribed to Jesus.
***
——————————————————————————–

References

{1} See William Booth & William Claiborne, “Cult Group’s Leader Among Suicides,” Washington Post, 3/29/97; Marc Fisher & Sue Ann Pressley, “Founder Sought to Purge Sexuality Via Cult,” ibid.; Ed Timms & Jeffrey Weiss, “Cult began in Houston in mid-’70s,” Dallas Morning News, 3/28/97.

{2} (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House, 1991).

{3} p. iv.

{4} Frank Bruni, “A Cult’s Two-Decade Odyssey of Regimentation,” New York Times, 3/29/97.

{5} Emphasis original. The cult’s materials are cited from a mirror site by Spacestar Communications, Eden Prairie, Minnesota, and from files made available on the Washington Post’s web site.

{6} Ankerberg & Weldon, p. v.

{7} “Heaven’s Gate Documents — Appendix B: Bible Quotes.”

{8} “Overview of Present Mission.”

{9} “Do’s Intro: Purpose – Belief.”

{10} In fact, the testimony of one former cult member (in Bruni, “A Cult’s Two-Decade Odyssey . . .”) that “We were told not to watch television or to read anything but the red-letter edition of the Bible” (emphasis mine) suggests as much, in my opinion. Since the Bible quotes posted by the cult (“Heaven’s Gate Documents — Relevant Bible Quotes”) are almost exclusively short quotations from the words of Jesus, the cult leaders may have told their followers to concentrate on these–with anything in Christ’s words inimical to their teachings being explained away as something “corrupted by mistranslations and councils of so-called scholars” (see above).

{11} Ankerberg & Weldon, p. vi.

{12} Flo Conway & Jim Siegelman, Snapping: America’s Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change (NY: Dell, 1979), p. 229.

{13} Ibid, p. 244.

{14} “Do’s Intro: Purpose – Belief.” Emphasis original.

{15} John Milton, “Areopagitica,” in M.H. Abrams et. al., eds., The Norton Anthology of English Literature, 4th ed., Vol. 1 (NY: Norton, 1979), p. 1405.

{16} Ankerberg & Weldon, p. viii.

{17} Ibid, p. 9.

{18} C.H. Spurgeon, “Alas! I Can Do Nothing,” in All of Grace (Electronic version published by Ages Software, Albany, OR).

{19} A feature of the “Heaven’s Gate” site was a “RED ALERT!” animated graphic that swelled and receded at the top of the introductory page.

(March 30, 1997)

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