Sawyer’s response to Christian bloggers post – “The Heresy of the Heaven’s Gate Cult”

The following is my response to Henry’s post “The heresy of the Heaven’s Gate Cult” on his Christian blog, “Spirit of Discernment”. I responded in depth to each opinion and accusation to the best of my ability. I was temporarily stumped by his reference to the the order in which he said the Two Witnesses would arrive based on the various Revelation’s depictions of the 7 Seals and the 7 Angels with the 7 Trumphets and 7 angels with the 7 vials, so it gave me cause to dig into the entire book of Revelations more thoroughly, something I have been meaning to do for a long time now, and in so doing, I saw where he was making broad assumptions of the events depicted leaving one less reason to scripturally diqualify Ti and Do as having fulfilled the role of the Revelations Chapter 11 Two Witnesses as one of several depictions of the promised return of the Kingdom of God for the harvest of Souls and the discernment of which souls might be “saved” for the next Earth based “Soul Garden” civilization, following a thorough recycling period when as Jesus said pertaining to a temple in Jerusalem, “There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down”. I don’t repeat this last quote to sound like I’m reissuing a punishment to the sinners as religionists and many Christians do and gloat over thinking they are somehow going to fare well being with Jesus in the clouds. I add it only because it’s a fact of life on Earth. Life is temporary on EVERY level even all that exists on the surface and recent science continues to prove that fact in the times, however many, the globe has heated and cooled, flooded and dried, etc. with or without the stimulus from the human population and their technology. It seems so apparant that the timing of each cycles end coincides with humans, many of which have had it so relatively easy for even a number of generations that expands their “head” beyond the reality of their own tiny affect and control, simply because they have become the product of their own illusion whether in a religio-spiritual or secular/scientific frame.

But before I start a little introduction and suggestion I gave to Henry:

Henry, I have included below a post I’ve made on my blog for the sake of the tiny amount of people that read my blog. My response here is quite long but as you were addressing and accusing me as a witnesss to the Two Witnesses it’s only right that I do the best job I could do to round out my responses with detailed examples from my experiences that are vast in this regard. You have warned me as most Christian bloggers eventually do before they cut me off entirely or do as L.A. Marzulli has done and disable comments, that you won’t allow me to “promote” Ti and Do in my responses. I guess there is something here that you fear, yet can not point out even ONE thing Ti and Do said or that I said Ti and Do said and did that can not be fully qualified by a number of scriptures but primarily by the words of Jesus found in any red letter bible but that a great deal of collaboration is found in The Book of Revelations and certain of the disciples letters. Even Paul said a few things that cross reference with something Jesus said. It’s the tendency of those who hate(detest)(not love less) the Real One True Kingdom of God and their representative, which of course many atheists and new age spiritualists have their way of doing, and religionist teachers as well, to see things completely black and white. Now it’s true in the end days (now) and in particular during the battle for souls, NOW that will conclude by the final return of Ti and Do and their crew of graduate 24 elder students and whoever else they wish to bring in the way many Christians actually expect it, but instead of seeing a bearded long haired white robed, or on a horse or sitting on a cloud with a sickle and a harp they will see the face that was before millions and millions for over a month on ALL the news stations of the world. Do’s FACE and wow will some freak when they see that however that is projected and evident so all will be FACED with the real deal. Thus for those that prepare for that event now, they will still have a chance to be saved. Otherwise many will die of shock and their spirit will be suspended in that shock until their spirit is recycled but will seem like an eternity. So you can disallow my comments and that’s fine with me. I don’t wish it. I’m sad if you do but it’s not about me, but you won’t be able to not see Ti and Do when they come. I also suspect the dead will also be faced with Do’s FACE and will respond with the same horror as if they programmed hatred of Do, then that hatred will be directed towards themselves because Do will not accept it. It will just bounce off of him.

Now it’s not too late to at least do one thing. Allow my posts, all of them for the benefit of others who read your blog since you leveraged the attack and convinced them, you are pulling them into the same eventual horrific condition. That is the only forgivable sin, which is why I suggest you allow my comments and then save yourself to some degree I hope by saying somethign to the affect, but I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, just want to be clear about my suggestion…but be honest..and express it. “You don’t know if Ti and Do are who they said they were for a fact” so it’s up to each reader to make up their own mind. If you don’t believe it, of course that’s your choice but at least it doesn’t drag others into that very shaky place of thinking you know more than God the creators of the planet and all it’s lifeforms.

In 1975 Ti and Do told those that didn’t know how to think about what they were presenting to ask the Kingdom of God about it, about them, about what their next best step is and they cautioned that there were Luciferians that were responding to calling on the name Jesus, as they declared themselves to be after jesus left to Paul and later to others, to date. They said to sidestep the Luciferians project your questions and petitions and prayers as far away into the deep heaven’s as you can imagine. The Luciferians can’t capture that. This is also what Jesus taught in the Lords prayer. He said to pray to the Father. For those who knew him personally, and for those that were alive and believed for a time after he left, they could ask things in his “name” – then Jesus but He knew that name would not be used upon his return which he said but the scriptures are hard to get that from, so I may be wrong about those scriptures, but I’m not wrong about the fact that in REvelations it says, paraphrased He would have a new name” that only his sheep would know.

(If you want to read his blog I’ve posted the address at the end of this post but here is what Henry initially wrote that I address point by point.)

Henry said:

The heresy of the Heaven’s Gate cult
September 21, 2011 by Henry

I first encountered the heavens gate cult when I read a news article about how the brother of the Star Trek actress Nichelle Nichol’s (who played Lieutenant Uhura in the original series) committed suicide in 1997 in what was a mass suicide conducted by the Heaven’s Gate group to coincide with the passing of Hales Comet by the earth.

Sawyer says:

Actually it was Dstody, aka Destin as in Destiny (what he felt joining with Ti and Do was for him), (his name choice) who was Nichelle Nichol’s, in Star Trek, Lt. Ohura’s brother, Thomas (perhaps his middle name but one he used for jobs in the world that we had) Nichols, whom I interacted with a great deal over 19 years in the Ti and Do’s experiential overcoming classroom, who was one of the 38 students who laid down his physical human life in March of 1997 and who came to me in a dream in late October, or early November of 2008 and all I got from his presence was “Obama”. Dstody had a African American “black” vehicle and that was the only dream I’d ever had with him, though I’ve had three with Ti, three with Do alone, and two with Do while observing him with classmates (some of the first dreams I had in 1998 or so) and various students since 1997, but never before then. At the time I took it to mean Obama was a good vote so I voted for him a week or two later. Less than a month later I was reading Revelations and came to Rev. 6, the 4 horseman and when I saw the “black horse” a light went on as I thought, “Oh, Dst in the dream was telling me that Obama is the black horse”.

I’m going to divert to bring some scriptural detail to the idea that the black horse represents a dark skinned human body/vehicle.

In scripture a horse can represent a human. Look at these two segments of scripture that say a red horse talks.

Zec 1:7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

note: So we have 1 rider on a red horse and then red horses, speckled and white without riders mentioned. So there are at least 1 rider and 3 horses, 1 of which is red-ruddy and the other ones red-ruddy, speckled white depending on the comma placements.

While we are at it, I believe when a horse is used to indicate a human physical body as in the few scriptures I am citing, (and of course Revelations chapter 6, a “rider” is a Soul as to ride one’s horse(vehicle) was to be in control of it and that is a big part of what a soul is taught to do, to be worthy of membership in the Kingdom of God’s crew. That control is what has been referred to as having Overcome or conquered one’s humanness but is worthless to do for self advancement. We must grow to want to do it for our Heavenly Father, “…thy will be done on Earth” which is why various religious pathways, though they look good don’t work because the giving of one’s will is put to the test the next time a member from the Kingdom of God comes to be with the selected horses and we are ready, willing and able to recognize them despite looking like an ordinary human, because of the quality of their mind, and leave everything of the human kingdom behind to “follow the lamb wherever he goes”.

Now this idea of a rider being a soul, some could wonder about, as are not all humans Souls or so we’re told? But if all humans were souls then why did Jesus differentiate humans that received “seeds” from those who had not, “to those whom much is given, much is required” (some arn’t given as much) and of course in the parable of the Kingdom of God as a seeding operation Jesus is describing how some seeds are devoured by birds and some fell on rocky soil…and some yield fruit. In other words, seeds are souls given to some as a gift that they must have been asking for somehow as the Kingdom of God created free will so we’d be the chooser, what to ask for, what to seek, what door to knock on and hope to find, as Jesus said was the “way” (we get on the receiving end of such a “gift”. If all had souls already where would be the need to plant seeds and what would become of those that don’t take full advantage of that gift. After all, what made Adam into a “Living Soul”? It was the “breath of life” he breathed in though his nostrils that came from his Lord God. Notice in the previous chapter of Genesus, “The Elohim created man, male and female and said be fruitful and mulitply and subdue the Earth”, which means conquer/overcome their human earthiness animal nature.

I also want to add at this point that in one of the only analogies Ti and Do gave over 19 years that I heard about was in describing the Kingdom of God, what they called the Next Level, (because it’s a human’s next evolutionary step from the human kingdom level), as ranchers who round up a group of wild horses and offer them a chance to be of service to the ranchers, that entails a training program. Those that take to the training are kept and assigned various tasks. The rest are let go and never have a relationship with a higher, more evolved kingdom level. So the Next Level are the ranchers and humans are like horses. Ti and Do, to my recollection or in writing never related this idea to Zecheriah or Revelation’s references to horses as human beings.

And here is the indicator that these horses are depictions of humans bodies:

(as the Spirit and/or Soul is as fruit from the body’s choices in life, of which if they are given the gift of a seed (soul), a part of which holds the recognition of it’s origin (the Kingdom of God), thus a measure of faith, that fruit is from a “good”(useful) tree as opposed to a “evil” (or trouble making/deceitful/manipulating) tree, thus a tare as opposed to the Wheat sown.)

Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
Zec 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
Zec 1:11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Note: These are sent by Lord to walk through the earth, and They talk thus not realistic to expect they are horses as in the animals.

red = hebrew 0122 ‘adom {aw-dome’}
 from 0119; TWOT – 26b; adj
 AV – red 8, ruddy 1; 9
 1) red, ruddy (of man, horse, heifer, garment, water, lentils)

speckled = hebrew 08320 saruq {saw-rook’}
 from 08319; TWOT – 2294a; n m
 AV – speckled 1; 1
 1) sorrel, reddish, tawny, bay

white = hebrew 03836 laban {law-bawn’} or (Gen. 49:12) laben {law-bane’}
 from 03835; TWOT – 1074a; adj
 AV – white 29; 29
 1) white

For any that think making reference to Zechariah are questionable data to quote, it’s always to be taken for what it’s worth. We do have record of Jesus referring to Zechariah and how he was stoned to death due to his work for the Lord. He was visited by messengers among which we get the TWO olive trees and TWO lampstands which are said to be both “annointed ones” which is one of the definitions of a Christ, thus the Two witnesses are both Christs (annointed), thus are the next or so called second coming of the task assignment called Christing or Christening.

That task entails teaching youngins how to become a “christ”. It is task that is never accomplished without an existing Christ taking us through the difficult birth canal of cutting all our Earth/Human roots, likes, dislikes, etc. and is never a task we then are assigned to perform for others until we have worked for a long time in various apprentising positions to gradually prove our trustworthiness. (So I am not saying any student is at this time a Christ. That’s not at all mine to determine or even know about. I am simply trying to de-mystify the task. It’s a task, an important one and a huge one for a huge HOLY MINDed Soul that wants to someday perform in such a task capacity thus must meet the strict requirements of their Older Member who had performed such a Christ task many times before to which they graduated to being a “Father” from which is depicted in Rev. 12).

(There’s a lot more to consider in this Zechariah connection, but I’ll leave it for another time).

Then when Obama came into office and almost his entire presidency was on the heels of the huge (biggest in the history of our civilization), financial “crisis” that is clear to many was a manipulation and/or at the least a blatent disregard for ethical business practises for the sake of windfalls of profit for a few as the robber barons gambled away any benefit ordinary citizens get from the huge amount of taxes they give and the financial crisis that has insued in the US has a ripple effect that is to date breaking the backs of countries but isn’t proceeding without strategies as there certainly is a conspiracy afoot here, even layers to where one layer doesn’t know of the other layer. Thus one way to define this verse is that the one sitting on the black horse is a “balancer” between opposing sides in a conflict and at a time when commodoties, wheat and barley are affected while oil and wine are not “hurt” is really “unjustly”. More specifically…

Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say Come and see And I beheld and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances (beam of the balance, thus what takes on the stess of what’s being balanced, thus a great yoke &/or burden) in his hand (to work on, his job).

and what is causing that stress:

Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Matters of commodities(foods given: Wheat and Barley), commerce (how much a penny buys) & thus finance.

Note: Now this is not saying he who sits on the black horse in Rev is related to someone sitting (or riding) on that horse(human vehicle) is acting consciously for the Kingdom of God. However the sit/rider is a Soul but is most likley a “fallen angel” Soul as are many if not all of those who have a great influence on humanity but don’t demonstrate the rules of behavior put forth by members of the Kingdom of God. But on the other hand, Obama himself, the human genetic vehicle that may have his own soul implant/seed, given to him sometime ago, if he was a seeker, like in his youth, which he indicates he did experience, may still look to the Kingdom of God and could have been why He read psalm 46 at the 2011 10 year anniversary 9/11 memorial in NYC, that says:

Psa 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
Psa 46:2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
Psa 46:3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.

Note talk of the” “Earth being removed and mountains carried into the sea(earthquakes), waters roar(tsunami) &/or waters = people roaring and troubled.

Psa 46:4 There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
Psa 46:5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.

Note: Interesting that this “River” is like the trunk with Branches, it’s streams – that fullfill all those in the city of God and this River is referred to as a “she”, which I can’t help but relate to Ti, The Father.

Psa 46:6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psa 46:7 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
Psa 46:8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.
Psa 46:9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
Psa 46:11 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

Now, of course there are many scriptures he could have chose and this choice to use this psalm, could have been a political one, as most things are for politicians who wish to get re-elected. By reading from pslams he is demonstrating his Judeao-Christian orientation vs the Islamic as some of his critics say he really is, though Islam recognizes Moses and Jesus and the book of Psalms is kind of neutral and it does coincide with the “shaking” often termed in the New testement as an earthquake, that occurred on 9/11/2001.

*** end of segway regarding horses = particular human beings ***

Henry said:

It was believed by those who were involved that the comet would take their souls to heaven. From a Christian point of view this of course is preposterous but what should be more surprising is the fact that this group claim also to be followers of Christ and cloak their beliefs in scripture. I personally have not studied the beliefs of this group extensively however from what I have learnt about them I know enough to designate them as a cult which promotes false doctrines.

Sawyer says:

Why is it not possible that the LORD could come in such a way that to us on Earth would experience as a comet? Where are the scriptures that rule that out? There are none, but there are quiet a few that rule it in.

But before addressing that idea, lets be clear about what Ti and Do and students believed. Do never said the comet would take their souls to heaven. They initially heard the underground reports that there was a object way beyond the so called orbit of Pluto showing erratic behavior. I was there when we first heard some of those reports. Then after I left them, as I’ve learned from having researched it, the Hale Bopp comet was reported to have had what became known as a “companion” object following along with the comet body. This was when people on Earth could see both the Comet and the companion with binoculars. This is also when photographs were taken by a Japanese Astrological team. Their picture showed the comet and the stars around it with an oval shape, which is part of the way the time lapsed photography so far away works, but the companion object didn’t have this oval shape which was certainly puzzeling to them.

Meanwhile there was a picture taken in the US that also showed the companion object but then when analysed by astronomers in Hawaii it wasn’t evident. There was something fishy there and some suspect it was airbrushed out for public release. I’m not being as thorough as I could be right now but there is documentation and much of the contravsery surround the late Art Bell who hosted a radio show out of Las Vegas, Nevada, whom among other things Do and crew were observing, as they were observing everything all over the planet.

We even lived in the Phoenix dessert in tent corridors and trailors with generators and huge 7 foot across mobile satelitte dishes we built the stands for that we could get satellite feeds for that provided news at the same time the various network news shows got them. And with those satelittes we picked up many Christian evangelists and a short time later had computers before the internet that we used to dial into various “bulletin boards”, one of which was called Paranet, which reported on much of the ufo related reports. I say all this because if anyone could be seen as an “observer” of what the Kingdom of God might at any moment instigate that could serve as a clue to the groups next step pertaining to information or to whether we might be better located for pickup, Do was an exquisit example. It wasn’t for entertainment.

However, then the comet with the alleged companion went behind the sun thus out of Earth’s eyeshot and when it came around the other side, back into view had no sign of a companion though still looked very, very different from any other comet viewed till then. It had two distinct tails which scientists in an effort to explain it, said it has a binary nuecleus. There are a number of photographs that show the two tails as these were easy to see even by amateurs. The previous photos never showed the two tails. These are facts not fiction or hearsay but then again everything these days is morphed in and out of reality so it’s no wonder so few have the stamina to keep digging. Most want to find what they consider to be a safe niche for their world view be anywhere from fringe to mainstream religio-spiritual to scientifically atheistic or not engaged at all.

Meanwhile the group, now Do and students were observing some of this contraversy. They had been looking for “pickup” since 1975 and were always concerned with being in the right place at the right time, never assuming the Next Level Above Human would spell it all out for them. They always took the point of view that they needed to themselves continue observing, watching all events, considering what they observe together with the degree of overcoming of the human world of their students, the primary reason they came, for them, to take them though their graduation/wheat harvest of the fruit. They knew they were given new information and guidence in a step wise fashion in accordance with the progress of the student body.

A case in point…In 1975 They initially thought the pickup would be months away but when pressed by students for a more definite time frame said they caved in to them some and said, “no more than 5 years away”. Interestingly, it was about 1980 that Ti set a date for pickup. We were all in San Antonio area at the time, still living outdoors. Perhaps it was before 1980 actually. We were camping at a place called “Cave without a name” in Bourne, Texas, actually the same town where Ti and Do had gone after leaving Houston in a type of whirlwind, setting out to tell others about the task they felt they had together.  I’d guess there were 45 to 48 students left then from the 96 who first gathered in Wyoming some 4 years prior. Ti and Do has a great deal to do with that number as in 1976 they had 19 of the students seperated from the larger body and told us who remained we made the “first cut”. (3 of those 19 ended up finding their way back to the group some 6-7 years later). Anyway, we prepared to be picked up by a spacecraft from the Next Level. They had us nearly fast that day and we got some early rest so we could stay up for as long as possible that night. The night passed without a pickup and we learned from Do that Ti felt she had “egg on her face”. However, looking back on that it was clear to Ti and Do that some members of the group were simply not ready to go as a number dropped out nearly immedieatly after that failed pickup time, as if they were staying there just for that event, missing the entire point to the task…what Ti and Do called the metamorphoic process of changing from a human (catapillar) to a above human (butterfly) which required bonding with the Older Member (present Heavenly Father) who would serve as a midwife for that real Soul birth (Jesus spoke of), that would become manifest as overcoming/conquering our vehicles human thoughts, ways, behaviors, past, relationships and even particular likes and dislikes.

Thus one can see the so called failed pickup as a Next Level way of vetting the serious minded students from the not so serious minded students as getting a ride on a UFO was never a draw for the serious minded students, though many of the students didn’t even know how big a draw such an idea might have been. I have lots of examples of how Ti and Do got info/tasks in steps that were just slightly ahead of the students ability to absorb/apply them.

Yes, it is true that Do and Students thought of this “companion” as a spacecraft that was manned by Ti and Ti’s crew coming to pick them up as they by 1996 even knew they had exhautsed all they were here to do. They had by then spelled out the information Ti and Do brought in 6 distinct and major ways, 4 of which received globalwide media. But when the companion was no longer visible, but perhaps even before that, knew that whether or not there was a spacecraft companion with the Hale Bopp comet or not was NOT important to them, which they posted on their web site what would be their 7th and last public offerring of the information.

I was with them for the first 5 public offerings and was included in what some might see as Do’s inner circle having an overseer task for the 5th offering and I only say this to provide some evidence that I was in a position to know a great deal about Do’s stepwise task operation. These public offerrings were never spoken of as a possible fulfillment of the prophecy of the 7 Angel’s “trumphets” or voices in Revelations. It just happened that way though Do was taking his lead from his Older Member, Ti who was at that time in “Heaven”. That’s not to say they never came upon those scriptures. I know they did and would have certainly seen that prophecy and recognized that they were nearly fulfilling it. I’m not actually saying these 7 offerrings were in fact the 7 angel’s trumphets. The angel’s we know are a messenger task. Thus it’s altogether possible this is the way the informational portion of the task was unrolled. Ti and Do never had much vision into the future in terms of how their task would/could play out. It was 1996 when Do felt “laying down their vehicles was likely” and decided to plan accordingly but he also said, if the Next Level didn’t feel this was the best next step then he felt they would pick them up in a spacecraft.

Here are the 7 public offerrings I’m considering to be the 7 messengers voices/trumphets (They may not correlate as there is no way I’ve seen that they do, except in the fact that there are 7):

1) 1975-6 (initial prophecy and only offerring they did together – public meetings by both Bo(Do) and Peep(Ti) that lasted 3 1/2 years (give or take a few days) but hit the news media in 1975,

2) 1988 by Do’s booklet we bound called “’88 Update – The UFO Two and their Crew” that we sent to a bunch of people like Walt Andrus of MUFON and Whitley Streiber, etc. (UFO was never a focus of the group. It became a catch phrase because some students designed the first posters used in 1975 with UFO in big letters. Ti and Do said no one checked this with them and that they would not have used that abbreviation, but as it became known accepted it as a media indentification).

3) 1991-2 12 hours video tape series of Do and student called “Beyond Human, The Last Call, of which I, as Sawyer was one of Do’s helpers/teleprompters.

4) May 27th 1993 with USA Today’s National and International Editions consisting of a third of a page information/ad (not selling anything) called, “‘UFO Cult’ Resurfaces with Final Offer”, (as “UFO Cult” was the name the Media gave the group in 1975-6).

5) Starting on 1/1/1994 our group who had been housed for the years since campgound living into the early 1980’s, sold everything again and outfitted ourselves to travel to once again deliver in a face to face way the information of Ti and Do. We set out in 4 groups that grew to 6, so we were in total 7 as Do and his two student helpers traveled together. We held 64 public meetings in many western U.S. cities that seemed to be hubs of thirsty souls over 9 1/2 months.

When we set out we had only 25 members, (including myself) of the group who had been there from 1975-6 though there were others in more of a half way situation that from the 1994 meetings rejoined. And there were some who still had occasional contact. (I suspect these are the 24 Elder Souls/Saints who took those human vehicles).

6) The sixth voice/trumphet went out to the world wide web to 95 UseNET newsgroups entitled for the religious tongued, “Undercover ‘Jesus’ Surfaces Before Departure” on September 25-26, 1995 and then a generic translation entitled, “’95 Statement by an E.T. Presently Incarnate”.

7) The Seventh and final offerring had several phases the first being an ahthology of all the materials published in a book entitled, “How and When ‘Heaven’s Gate’ (The Door to the Physical Kingdom Level Above Human) May Be Entered” which was put on the web as which is still maintained along with another mirrored site called where the book can be downloaded freely. The second and last phase of the 7th public offerring was in syncronization with their decided exit of their physical vehicles, aka human bodies, containers, suits of clothing, horses to learn to ride/control, overcome/conquer. They decided to “lay them down” voluntarily and document it for the world to see. They wanted to make a world wide splash as opposed to exiting with no media involvment. This was in a real sense pertinent to the media and all who saw them in 1975-6 a rising from the public commons (media) grave for the UFO TWO, The Two, The Two Witnesses, Bo and Peep now Do and Ti, for They and students had been silent for 17 years while the students were doing the hard work learning to be a spoke in the wheel of a Next Level Older Member’s crew on board a spacecraft/laboratory.

Now, back to the Comet talk…

As I’ve said, they actually never thought the comet itself was a transportation vehicle that would pick them up as they said and thus evidenced on They did definitely feel/know that it was the “sign” or “token” they had been waiting/preparing for even from 1975. And that correlates exactly with:

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Note: This is describing the event to come…”so shall …. be” forewarning those who read it that his coming as a “son of man” in other words in a new human body will have a heaven sent/displayed notification which a “comet” can certainly be considered to fulfill as it’s bright light and it’s visible to Earthlings along the ecliptic which travels the same path as the sun, moon and stars, east to west. Sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

Ti and Do actually thought the comet Kohotek was their initial arrival’s “sign” as the day near Christmas, was Kohotek’s perihelian and it had been touted to be a huge event/omen, etc. and that was December of 1973 while Ti and Do were renting a car in St. Louis, Missouri using a credit card they had been given by their first supporter in 1973, but whose husband, not a supporter reported as stolen which months later caught up with Ti and Do when they called the media in Brownsville, Texas intending to give them their story, but the reporter, being there was so much drug trafficing on the Texas/Mexico border thought was going to be a drug tip, so informed police who went to the motel where Ti and Do were staying and apprehended then and when they did a checkup on them found they unknowingly had used a now reportedly stolen credit card. And this arrest that resulted in dropped charges against Ti but 6 months in prison for Do, where he wrote “statement one” mailed to stimulate the first meeting in Los Angeles and giving him a “record” as a “thief” that was the basis of later “shooting them down” in the commons(national media) when Walter Cronkite exposed their hames and Do as a felon following an investigation as to who prompted 27 people to walk out the doors of their lives to join them to go to heaven on a UFO.

Their next huge public event coinciding with a huge bright “sign” in the heaven’s east to west was the Hale-Bopp comet.

Neverthelsss, here is the “sign”:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In this case though we have the sign first, then mourning which can be considered to be the response of many who had family and friends in the Heaven’s gate group but also for others the shock of what to them was most bizarre and disturbing to witness. Then some time later which can be quite later by human time frame, we see that human body again in the clouds of heaven, but this time not as an undercover of night but with power and brilliance (glory). This could be their last return. In other words Jesus said he’d return twice more. One time to…

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Note: The “angels” are His messenger servants disciples/students. When Jesus sent out the 70+ they were performing that task of delivering the good news of the Kingdom being at hand with Jesus’ physical presense. The United States was already he biggest new melting pot where all people’s had migrated.

…and next as a part of the harvest/judgement end of the human world as we know it.

The term “heaven” we see throughout the New Testement has mulitple levels of meaning as do most of what Jesus said and/or referred, thus to call this idea “preposterous” is ignoring/refusing to look/observe/watch what can be proof to the faithful who don’t skoff at God in saying what God can and can’t do.

It represents the overall dwellings of all members of the Kingdom of God/Heaven as it’s also inclusive of their condition that is both physically and mentally/spiritually eternal, no longer limited to cycles and planetary environments.
It represents that part of the spirit world where Souls are saved to, aka paradise, abrahams bosum, heaven.
It represents the sky.
It represents the firmament of the Sun and Moon and Stars.

Heaven nearly exclusivly used throughout the New Testement in greek origin is:

Strongs Concordance: 3772 ouranoV ouranos oo-ran-os’ perhaps from the same as oroV – oros 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):–air, heaven(-ly), sky.

Reference: 3735 oroV oros or’-os probably from an obsolete oro (to rise or “rear”; perhaps akin to airw – airo 142; compare 3733); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): -hill, mount(-ain).

Reference: 142 airw airo ah’-ee-ro a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare nasa’ 5375) to expiate sin:–away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
So yes, they were claiming that Ti and Do were the door or gate into the abodes of members of the Kingdom of God that has as it’s primary environment anywhere their tasks take them in outer space the literal heavens.

Also doesn’t the word you used, “cloak” mean to hide or disguise? So you say, “Ti and Do disguised their beliefs in scripture”. I guess you are saying they found scriptures to justify their beliefs that were not otherwise scriptural. If so, can you give me ONE example? Just ONE of the beliefs of Ti and Do and the scripture they used to substantiate that belief.

Actually, I’ll do if for you. But before I do, I’ll remind that Jesus sort of did that – took some action that it seemed he knew was simply to fulfill a scripture, i.e. riding an ass into Jerusalem, giving a speech on the temple mount (which would have qualified his blowing his trumphet…perhaps he even blew a shofar there as well, I don’t know of any record of that), and he said that Judas Iscariot’s betrayal was a fulfillment of prophecy, which he in part orchestrated and I’d bet there are more.

Ti and Do soon after meeting in Houston in mid 1972 soon believed they were both “from outer space” and were “here to bring updates and fulfill prophecy in the Bible”. They didn’t at that time in early 1973 know what prophecy, but less than a year later while studying the Bible believed they were the Two Witnesses from Rev. 11, and they believed in the word for word way in which those scriptures had been translated, that they would have their physical bodies killed and would resurrect for their enemies to witness and then ascend into a cloud with their bodies, a repeat performance they said of what Jesus did. So in a sense they took what they felt at first and believed it fit into the Rev 11 prophecy.

To their surprise when they sent out their written statement to religious and spiritual leaders which was shortly before April of 1975, they were asked to speak to a meditation group in Los Angeles, (city of (God’s)angels on the shore by the sea) and a packed house meeting and then the next day a yet bigger group, some wanted to join with them, though they coming into the meetings did not welcome the idea of followers. They thought they were to just prophesize and be killed. The scripture didn’t say anything about followers but they accepted that some wanted to, so met them at a campground, that they stayed at then and a few months later organized meetings in San Francisco and then Waldport, Oregon, the meeting I joined them from which is the meeting that brought their claims to the media. The new followers that escalted into the 70’s in number by Chicago then split up as it was hard to hide. The news broke around that time and authorities were looking for these two because some 27 people had walked out the door of their lives to join them, from attending the Waldport, Oregon meeting. One of these was the mother of two young children, who arranged to have their father take the kids as he lived less than 100 miles from them. That hit the press, a long story that I have personal awareness of, so the police got involved which is what brought the story to the press. Ti and Do at the time were told the children were abandoned which Ti and Do said they certainly would not have done.

But because of the national media and Walter Cronkite headlining the story that was covered by every major newspaper in the U.S. that linked going to heaven with boarding a spacecraft behind or inside a “cloud of light”, Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) Ti and Do felt the group needed to be broken up to smaller groups to continue holding public meetings. There were 6 or 7 groups counting 6 students that traveled with Ti and Do. By November of 1975 I was no longer with any group as the group I had been with sort of disbanned so I with the partner assigned to be with me decided to bring the message about Ti and Do to the east coast of the U.S.

It wasn’t until April that after asking God for help to know what to do next that I walked into a library where a meeting was scheduled by another group, that ended up being Ti and Do’s group and it was in Oklahoma City and just so happened to be where Ti announced that the “Harvest is closed”. This was April 21, 1976. Now, considering that Ti and Do thought they were the Two Witnesses and evidenced knowing the prophecy, wouldn’t they had timed their stated end to their prophecy to match the exact time frame in the prophecy of 1260 days (3 1/2 years)? And if they were cloaking their belief in prophecy wouldn’t they have to tell people what day they started to prophesize? The term prophecy means to publically talk about the future regarding the Kingdom of God. This would have been a very easy way to match up with prophecy. Just count back 1260 days and say this is when we began to prophesize. Well they never sought to justify this part of prophesy and as it happened they began to first talk about who they thought themselves to be in a public way officially on 1/1/1973 sometime close to midnight when they left their old lives behind in Houston, Texas. 1260 days later brings us to June 14, 1976.

When Ti made the announcement, the six other groups of students were spread out around the country and had already scheduled their next meeting so were told by Ti and Do to finish their last meetings. My groups last meeting was in Fayetteville, Arkansas. After that we were camped near Cape Girado, Missouri and some new students were supposed to rendevous with us there. Then Ti and Do told us to spend quality time, essentially every moment to individually commune with God to ask for and be ready for what was next. That was about 2 weeks prior to getting notification from Ti and Do to meet in Veedavou Campground in Medicine Bow National Forest east of Laramie, Wyoming. We all  arrived there by July 4, 1976 (by the way the Bi-centenial of the formation of the United States (melting pot – where angels had gathered souls from the 4 winds as prophesized) the location of the New Jerusalem “city of God” (Los Angeles) as well as the new Sodom (Las Vegas) Judea/Egypt, the new Babylon, the Beast that all the nations of the world are in bed with where Jesus said the Kingdom of God would be moved to a new nation where they spoke in a new tongue (paraphrasing several scriptures).

Thus this was pretty darn close to 1260 days and since Ti and Do, months before 1/1/73 set up two short lived “centers”, one in the basement of St. Thomas’s where Do was the choral/music director – whose favorite song was, “Lo How a Rose” (about growing fruit(a soul) out of the thorns of evil) but in a short time were asked to discontinue as they called it the Christian Arts Center and it was reported that they were not strictly talking Christian talk. The next center was called Knowplace. So these could be considered to be the start of their Prophectic period though I guess it depended upon what they talked about in the few meetings they had in each of those two centers.

My point is, that it may or may not have been an exact 1260 days, but it was pretty darn close.

Henry said:

Our Lord Jesus Christ warns us many times in His word that we should beware of false christs and false teachers who if it were possible would deceive the very elect. I fear that those who are involved with the heaven’s gate group are both deceiving and being deceived. For instance, where is it written in scripture that believers should commit suicide in order to attain to heaven or even that space objects such as comets would come to take our souls to heaven so that we should take our own lives to gain entry such a vehicle? Anyone who believes this must necessarily believe a different gospel than that written in the Bible. However, as Paul admonishes us we should test every spirit to see if they are of God, in like fashion as the Bereans who examined all that Paul had taught them against the word to see if those things that Paul claimed were so. The adherents of the heaven’s gate group would do well to study the scriptures daily to see if the teachings they received lined up with the Word of God.

Sawyer says:

Except you have no scriptural proof of this claim. Just “feeling” this way can easily be the instigation of a Luciferian trying to keep you from looking at it seriously. And if you were willing to actually look at what I am saying and the myrid of scriptures all over I have quoted and provided greek/hebrew backgound on and research, cross referencing work on, then perhaps you would see how exactly they really do match what Jesus said/did, but perhaps that’s what you are afraid of, so you just ignore and deny any truth to it.

So, “Where’s the Beef, Henry? Show me some scriptures that speak against anything Ti and Do actually said or did. Have you not read John chapter 14 carefully to see that Jesus actually “laid down his life, because his Father asked him to”. That’s what he said. Was he wrong as wasn’t he captured? And didn’t he tell his disciples they would have to “drink the cup” too and that some of them would be killed and all would be persecuted and not to be concerned about those who could kill the body but could not kill the soul and that the body was sacrificed, the reason for the beginning of that willingness in the camp of Moses to sacrifice what is otherwise our most valuble possession, especially when lamb meat was at a premium. Thus their laying down their lives should not really be a huge leap of faith to consider for the most devout should they genuinely feel they are physically with their recognized shepherd who they witness over many years to be pure of heart and soul – zero evidence of any wrongdoing at all, something no other so called “cult” leader or church leader can claim I’d bet. He didn’t even get the benefit of all that praise and glory and fine clothing and food and lavish surroundings and all that attention, self grandisements and self absorbsion even mixed with a certain amount of asceticism that the Luciferians love to tout as holiness used to create followers by.

Henry said:

Jesus Christ came into this world to die for our sins so that through Him – by believing in Him and His gospel message we might be saved and inherit eternal life. Paul writing to Titus said:

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Rather than committing suicide to accelerate our journey to heaven we are to earnestly continue in the blessed hope, waiting for the appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Moreover, when we die though we be in Christ we do not instantly go to heaven. Rather we remain asleep until the great and terrible day of the Lord when Jesus shall descend from heaven to gather the dead and the living who are in Him to Himself. See the following verses:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:16-18)

The heaven’s gate group however believes there is actually a different way to get to heaven – mass suicide. To them what is written here in the Word is not true but rather what their teachers tell them is what they believe to be the truth. However you cannot have it both ways – it is either you believe the Word of God as written in the Bible or you make it up as you go along or follow those who make it up as they go along.

Sawyer’s response:
No, this is a total misrepresentation.

No, suicide isn’t at all Ti and Do’s idea as the way to get to heaven but the fact is, for those that want to give ALL of themselves to the Kingdom of God, when it’s presented by a genuine member from the Kingdom of God, that only an individual can determine for themselves, then by whatever means, death of the physical body is required. I bet I could find at least 12 things Jesus said that directly indicated loss of one’s physical body “for the Kingdom of Heaven’s/God’s sake was part of the required formula.

However, it’s only applicable when the death is because the student/disciple believes with all their heart that they are with the real deal, a member of the Kingdom of God, in this case Two members in a female and male body named Ti and Do. AND the much bigger part of the contract is that the student must PROVE to the teacher they are wanting to go with them more than anything else in the entire human and geographical world and this can take years for the teacher to be persuaded to permit. It’s impossible to know how much effort both Ti and Do put into each student UNLESS you witnessed it or are willing to believe a witness like myself who has proved over years has nothing to gain by making it up. If I were to make something up, which would be if I wanted to try to make money or become more popular to have followers, I could easily tweek a few difficult to swallow ideas and walla I’d have a new religion. But that would be blasphemy against Ti and Do to not tell the whole truth as I experienced it.
Now, of course for someone who never had anything to do with Ti and Do, they would be expected to “test their goods” – examine their fruit to determine what tree it comes from. But most of the time that’s the last thing anyone cares to do. It’s much easier to just disqualify Ti and Do and move on. So in a sense Henry’s posting here is a breath of fresh air as at least he has kept the door open somewhat and has attempted to state the reasons for his belief that Ti and Do are heretics, which would make me one as well.

However, Henry’s attempt here is without any depth as to just throw out scriptures that we think prove Ti and Do can’t be the two witnesses/ “second” coming of Jesus is next to meaningless if we don’t have the broadest understanding of what Jesus actually said in non-religisized tongues, aka language/terms. It’s understandable that if someone like Henry has not dug into the scriptures himself to try to see what the translators decided to do with each word then of course he’s not going to see much more, if any more than the various translators saw. I always cheer when I see a Christian demonstrating the Greek and/or Hebrew roots to an English word as it shows more than a casual thirst to know what was said. And this of course is very hard mental work to bascially check and consider an alternate definition for a word or phrase but it cues one into every word. However all too often what the Christians who try to retranslate do is focus on scriptures that have little to no contravesy when there are dozens no one wants to touch as they are considered extreme thinking OR they find some meaning they can use to justify what they don’t want to otherwise believe. For instance, the “eye of the needle”. I don’t doubt that at some point that arch that camel’s need to kneel down to get under could have been called the “eye of the needle”, before or after jesus gave that analogy that:

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

If there was an arch that was called the eye of a needle that Jesus was referring, I’d bet a camel never was able to get through it but the way many Christians use it, it’s as if, it was hard for them to get though it but not impossible, leaving the door open wide to think having great possessions is even a bounty of a life filled with godliness that god blesses us with things. Talk about lies. This is from you know who, the “Father of lies”. The reason the rich can’t make it is because they will rely on their money when they have certain tests that they need to look to God to help them solve. If someone did join with Jesus and kept their money with them, they would have been kicked out for doing so as what we don’t know is that Jesus ran a tight ship financially. He had a “purser” that doled out the money for various needs. So he wasn’t a begger either. But this isn’t meant for us so much now when there is no member of the Kingdom of God physically present, though that too can be an excuse to just treat our money the same as everyone else mostly does, often hording for a rainy day or retirement while people all around don’t even eat that well or have a warm dry place to rest. I don’t tell people what to do with their money as that’s not my place to say. The rule we were given by Jesus was to “love our neighbor as ourselves” so a strict application of that might look like, a 50/50 split – I’d give 50% of my income to others and keep 50% for myself. Imagine if everyone did that. There would be noone homeless or hungry or without someone to help them. Of course when we entangle ourselves into debt so many of us don’t have anything to give away really.

But the point to these scriptures is that when the Lord is putting out the trumphet call and you hear it, then it’s time to hit the deck running in his direction or not.

At this time, the trumphets have all but sounded, though the last one they sounded is still reverberating all around the globe because of how loud a blast it was which was deliberate so the running to the Lord that we can do now is to accept their latest representatives and tell others about them and accept the ramifications. No groups to belong to, no meetings to attend, no tapes or cd’s or dvd’s to buy, no new practices or techniques to learn and master and then peddle to others as spiritual development. Just plain and simple telling what they said and did and that will probably eventually get us killed as we have not yet seen the 4th horseman of the apocolypse.

Actually contrary to what Henry said, Ti and Do didn’t talk very much about scripture and when they did there was no in depth analysis. What I am sharing in these blogs and on my sites is what I’ve come to understand from my constant in depth analysis because I want to know more about what Jesus meant and intended, which in so doing I learn about the outright mistakes made by many translators.

Henry says I or they are making up what’s in the Bible as I(we) go along, another unfounded accusation amidst many the ill informed use to avoid finding out what they don’t know when they want to think of themselves as knowledgeable and especially when others are reading/listening to what they say. The same thing happens with humans in any field. They become entrenched in what floats their boat, so don’t want to rock that boat so automatically disqualify something new.

So Henry, give me one scriptural interpreation that you think I “made up” and I will show you how I spent many hours with the greek/hebrew/aramaic to arrive at the most likley meanings. Of course I can make misakes but that’s why I cross reference a great deal.

Henry said:

The heaven’s gate group believes in two characters called Ti and Do who they claim are Jesus and God and at the same time the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. The first question we need to ask here is whether God can send witnesses who contradict His very word. Let us first of all briefly examine whether these two characters could actually be God and Jesus. Jesus came into this world a messenger of the Father to bring good news to the lost. Jesus however told us that He is going back but will come again to gather those that are His to himself (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12).

Sawyer says:

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Here Jesus is saying the “Son of Man” is coming. We often take word meanings for granted. Some think this was Jesus just using a phrase from an Old Testement prophet and it was used by Ezekiel and Daniel and in Psalms but, the big point here is what that phrase meant to Jesus.

man = greek from Strongs concordance 444 anqrwpoV anthropos anth’-ro-pos from anhr – aner 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:–certain, man.
reference:435 anhr aner an’-ayr a primary word (compare 444); a man (properly as an individual male):–fellow, husband, man, sir.
son = greek from Strongs concordance 5207 uioV huios hwee-os’ apparently a primary word; a “son” (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figuratively, kinship:–child, foal, son.
of = greek from strongs concordance 5259 upo hupo hoop-o’ a primary preposition; under, i.e. (with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)):–among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately.
man = greek from Strongs concordance 444 anqrwpoV anthropos anth’-ro-pos from anhr – aner 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:–certain, man.
reference:435 anhr aner an’-ayr a primary word (compare 444); a man (properly as an individual male):–fellow, husband, man, sir.
Thus in longhand including the full range of meanings Jesus was for all intents and purposes saying he was a male child, foal, son, kin of/under/by human being.

Can you dispute these essential meanings to what Jesus said he would return as a human being again. Here is a confirmation:

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

So He will come in like manner as you have seen him go. What was that like manner? “he was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight.

But perhaps we don’t know the authority of who these are: “two men stood by them in light/bright/brilliant apparel” as they don’t say any more about them.

white = 3022 leukos {lyoo-kos’} from luke (“light”); TDNT – 4:241,530; adj AV – white 25; 25 1) light, bright, brilliant

Here is another strong collaboration in the way Moses said the next coming would be and if Moses was also God the Father’s servant, would there be a strong likihood that his saying how they’d see the next coming:

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

From a Bible dictionary: Son of Man = In the New Testament it is used forty-three times as a distinctive title of the Saviour. In the Old Testament it is used only in Ps. 80:17 and Dan. 7:13 with this application. It denotes the true humanity of our Lord. He had a true body (Heb. 2:14; Luke 24:39) and a rational soul. He was perfect man.

Thus the reference to his coming is in human flesh, correct, not as a spirit. So the question now is how will we experience his coming and will it be everyone on the planet and if so how will it be interpreted. Will everyone know it’s Jesus. Will he come with the same flesh he had before?

The evidence is that He certainly will not use the same name for if he was planning on using the same name why wouldn’t he have said, “I will come back…”. No, what he says is a human being will come back with a name other than Jesus because we are not to believe anyone who comes “in my name”

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Now there are two conditions he mentions here. Many shall come “in my name”, that’s the name he had which was “Jesus” but it’s those that use that name and also say they are Christ, so we can discount those humans who are born with the name, Jesus but who don’t claim to be Christ.

Did anyone come saying they were Jesus and directly or indirectly infer they were Christ, the annointed one?

Yes, absolutely and right on the heals of Jesus departure:

First account:

Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Second Account:

Act 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
Act 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Note: as we can see the stories are mixed up with those with him on the one hand “hearing a voice” and then on the other hand “heard not the voice of him that spake to me” (I might guess it possible that as there were more than one men accompanying him, one could have heard it and the other not).

Third account:

Act 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

So yes, false christs, false prophets whom he said would be in “sheeps clothing” in other words appear to be sheep which no other group can that apply to than those who wrap themselves in belief in Jesus and count themselves his elect than many Christians. That is sheeps clothing, so the false prophets will basically be Christian preachers and today that would include bloggers, though each must be tested by what they actually say to determine if they are saying things that are untrue/false.

Henry said:
Jesus knew however that when He left many false Christ would arise after Him to lead the people astray so He gave the desciples the signs to look for of His coming so that we are not deceived. We read for example:

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt 24:24-27)

Sawyer says:

So those that are looking for him, if they are told to go here or there, they will know not to find Jesus or the human being who is not named Jesus there.

Note: Regarding Ti and Do. No one is saying you can go find them, Father and Son anywhere and especially now as they have left their physcial bodies. And when they were here, on the one time period of 3 1/2 years almost to the day perhaps, no one knew where they were at any given moment until a poster showed up advertising a meeting. Thus there was never a time they had set up shop somewhere to gather people to them. In fact many looked for them and could not find them as they had no one place to lay their heads.

So now a big clue, I’ll repeat:

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

“AS lightning”

As = greek strongs 5618 wsper hosper hoce’-per from wV – hos 5613 and per – per 4007; just as, i.e. exactly like:–(even, like) as.
So it might be clearer to say:

“Just as lightning…” It’s not saying it is lightning. It’s saying it’s “as” or “just as” which means alike to in the way in which it is seen/experienced.

So lets really delve into this word used here as Lightning because of how many people are banking on this being the key description of Jesus return:

lightning = 796 astraph astrape as-trap-ay’ from astraptw – astrapto 797; lightning; by analogy, glare:–lightning, bright shining.
reference: 797 astraptw astrapto as-trap’-to probably from asthr – aster 792; to flash as lightning:–lighten, shine.
Reference: 792 asthr aster as-tare’ probably from the base of strwnnumi – stronnumi 4766; a star (as strown over the sky), literally or figuratively:–star.
Reference:4766 strwnnumi stronnumi strone’-noo-mee, stronnuo strone-noo’-o, prolongation from a still simpler stroo stro’-o, (used only as an alternate in certain tenses) (probably akin to stereoV – stereos 4731 through the idea of positing); to “strew,” i.e. spread (as a carpet or couch):–make bed, furnish, spread, strew.
Reference: 4731 stereoV stereos ster-eh-os’ from isthmi – histemi 2476; stiff, i.e. solid, stable (literally or figuratively):–stedfast, strong, sure.
2476 isthmi histemi his’-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah’-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):–abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare tiqhmi – tithemi 5087.
Here is a sentence comprised of the most well rounded definition I can come up with based on all the Strongs references to what the word meant.

lightning = lightning, bright and shining/flashing, a star that is strown, strewn or spread, even carpeting in a stiff, strong, stedfast way as to stand and abide, bring, continue, covenant, establish something over the sky.

This starts in the east and shines to the west.

So a bright star like object that spreads itself out over the area east to west it compasses.

Could that be a comet? After all, every eye can see that, right! It doesn’t say the human being will be hanging out of it or riding on top of it. The tail of a comet “spreads” and it’s interesting the play on words in the greek as we see many times the great word is very close to the english word. In this case I’m referring to Stereo in greek that to english means TWO. HaleBopp had two tails. Ti and Do were TWO (witnesses).

Henry said:

In spite of these clear warnings given by Jesus Himself that we should not go after another who is already on earth and claiming to be Him but rather to look for His appearing as the lighting flashes from East to West the heaven’s gate group rejects these very words. They claim that Jesus does not need to appear in this way but that His coming is phased and it is up to us to be able to recognize if when he is here. To reject Jesus’ words here and to say that Ti and Do are God and Jesus incarnate is nothing but a lie in the face of the Bible. Whom do we trust? The Bible, the revealed word of God or do we trust another who contradicts this very word?

Sawyer says:

Ti and Do and students are not on Earth now so I’m in no way telling you by considering who they are, to go someplace to find them, so will you please cancel out that accusation. They didn’t claim to be Jesus. They said Jesus was the name of the body, what they called a vehicle and that vehicle was not coming back. They said in 1975 publically that they were “from the same family as Jesus and his Father” so cancel out the second accusation in that paragraph too. No it didn’t say in this scripture “Jesus would appear as lightning”, It said “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be”. In other word his coming would be LIKE, or AS what is described. Even so, that’s his “coming”. If someone comes to visit you, do you automatically see how they arrive. No, you have to watch for them to see them and watching for them in the case of Jesus means watching for the “signs of the Son of Man”, which are in what he SAYS and DOES that will demonstrate full consistancy with what He said and did before, but in new “tongues” but that will come to us via some public announcement, the media, and will of course be mostly hated by all those that don’t have any of his Holy Spirit in them.

But say He comes in some type of godly spacecraft and he was inside it. Would it not fulfill this prophecy for him to come though no one could actually see what he physcially looked like as he was inside the spacecraft, thus another false assumption.

Regarding what I said about his coming being phased or in stages. I say that because of other scritures that say he will come as a thief, come as a “son of man” again but not named “jesus” so it has to be a mystery given there are billions of “sons of human”. Will he be glowing bright white light? Is that how we will know him. If so, how come he didn’t come what way any other time. Yet this is apparantly the “end time”, the “Last Day” or maybe that doesn’t seem to be so to you which would explain some of your blatent refusal and critical uninformed strong opinions/condemnations/accusations.

It’s just that these indicators of his return don’t seem to be describing just one major event and it is probably futile to try to demonstrate that to someone who is set against considering it, but you keep engaging me so I’ll keep responding.

And yes it is up to us to recognize him in his new human clothing as he told us to observe and keep oil in our lamps to be able to see when he comes. He said to Watch! If it’s going to be that obvious entirely like lightning then what’s so hard about watching observing? You said the idea that Ti and Do are members of the Kingdom of God serving as Father and Son is a lie, but have not shown anything I can’t easily with many proves shoot down in your reasoning and you cited no scriptures that disproves that it could very well be them. I know well this is very tough. Many are very programmed to not accept anything real as the return of Jesus. It’s just like politics and especially now. Not that I’m into Obama in any way, but the fact is very clear that anything he does is and will be met with great opposition just for the sake of opposition, though there will always be a myrid of justifications because no one in his oppostion wants him to get any credit for changing anything for the better as it would then cost them their next election. It’s all exceedingly broken but that is just one of the many Luciferian strategies to program humans with every form of opposition to anyone’s recognition of the Kingdom of God.

You trust the Bible you say, but the evidence in many of our conversations is that you don’t understand it’s words very well, yet you trust your misunderstanding enough to condemn and call a liar someone who does provide a great deal of detail scriptural and commonsensical contextual understanding of scripture using well documented Greek to English dictionaries. Again what is the contradiction you speak of? A contradiction as I understand the definition is a juxtaposed view and negates what we say we think or believe, and when we should know we are doing that, then we should be willing to admit our hypocrisy. I haven’t heard you site the contradictions. Just because you say it doesn’t make it so except for those in your corner of the ring who want to cheer you on no matter the value of what you say.

Henry said:

Could these two therefore be the Two Witnesses of God – not if they contradict the very word of God they cannot be. More importantly they do not fit into neither the prophesy nor the criteria to fulfill the prophesy surrounding the ministry of the Two Witnesses.

Sawyer says:

I agreed that they don’t fit if one just looks at the King James Translation of Greek to English and takes things metaphorical as strictly literal, though I do believe and have faith that everythng the Kingdom of God provides us has a literal application and practical way to understand it. I know well there are some Christians that ONLY use the King James and would say changing even one word in the translation is sacreligious and herectical. But I’m not the one that gives a bunch of ways to interpret apo-kteino. In some places in Revelations it’s “slay” and in other places it’s “murder” and in others “kill” and in it’s roots, “kill in ANY WAY, as the contraction indicates a haulting, or stopping as the core meaning. I’m not making that up. It was interesting that in your previous post that we began this back and forth, the very commment I posted that translated much of Rev. 11, you failed at that time to approve while saying that you were all for talking scripture.

Henry said:

The Bible makes clear to us that the Two Witnesses complete their ministry during the opening of the 7th Seal at a time when the 5th angel (of the seven having the seven trumpets and the last seven plagues to judge the earth) sounded. These events occur after the 6th seal when the heavens were opened and when Jesus gathers those that are His to Himself. We know this because in Revelations 9 the 5th angel sounded and released the angel of the bottomless pit which I believe is the same beast of the bottomless bit which made war with the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11 and killed them following the end of their ministry.

Sawyer says:

You stated inaccuratly re: the “bottomless pit” statements being the “same”.

“Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.”
And here is the Rev. 11 scripture you said was the same reference:

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill(greek apokteino = also means to stop/hault, kill in ANY WAY) them.

In the Rev. 9 example there is no mention of a “beast coming out of the bottomless pit”, though I would venture to say it may be of the same affect, as it appears to be some type of weapon of war which would be part of the beastial empire, whereas in Rev. 11 it’s said as a beast though that beast needs to be personified somehow to do a killing.

overcome = 3528 nikaw nikao nik-ah’-o
 from nikh – nike 3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):–conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.
3529 nikh nike nee’-kay
 apparently a primary word; conquest (abstractly), i.e. (figuratively) the means of success:–victory.

Side note: Do and crew wore “Nike” tennis shoes to their laying down of their physical bodies event. The moto of Nike is “Do it” which sounds like Do (as in the name of Ti and Do, so Doe it – do it like Do. “Thy will be Done” what every student must embrace to convince the Older Member of their sincerity. This was no Jim Jones event by far. That was a facsimili, the only way a Luciferian can do, which is why it was such an confused, mixed up, deceitful and manipulative horrific event that included children that could never have decided to take that action and they were prodded and pushed and even threatened with death by gunshot if they didn’t go along. Some were hunted down by Jim Jones henchmen. Why did they have armed guards anyway. Perhaps that was a dangerous area to live in, thus justified having some weapons but as they were under investigation and Jim Jones had already been accused of crimes, to him he was primed by Luciferians to stage such an event. Also on this side note that probably had nothing to do with their Nike choice. The word Overcome in Greek is rooted in the word, nike:
3529 nikh nike nee’-kay
 apparently a primary word; conquest (abstractly), i.e. (figuratively) the means of success:–victory.

I know this seems like a big stretch but though this is not a comical event by any means and especially to those who still counted these 38 their loved ones, but one of the ways the Kingdom of God does sort of play, is to line up language development in such a way as to have what seems like coincidental spellings and meanings that hold over into another language. After all, all the languages have the same root for each civilization and the Next Level uses language as a way to sort Spirits/Souls into grades in the overall school. Those that know how lacking languages all come to be, are not often convinced of anything by words alone and they often seek the simple, practical minded, even common sense ways of seeing any situation which in the case of history requires some digging to the origins of the words used and their context, both physically and mentally.

These 38 students had overcome their humanness by voluntarily and gladly exiting their human bodies with their Older Member. They had accumulated enough of the mind from their Older Member’s Ti and Do to KNOW laying down their body would not result in the death of their essence, the Soul gifted to them that they strove to fill with only Next Level mind, in seeking to do everything their Older Member gave them to do, which is how the Older Member knows they are free from the rebelliousness of the Luciferians. These students had become “as little children” in their trust of Do though to the world who can not or do not want to know Do’s voice, it was a bizarre cult manipulation and a tragedy. Not all the loved ones actually saw it like that. Sure most hurt from their loss of someone they loved but some knew this was what their loved ones wanted and had actually worked to stay a part of. It’s of course harder for the loved ones of those that were only in the group 3-4 years and in one case less than a year. Ti and Do told us as we walked out the doors of our lives in 1975 that the loved ones we left behind would receive extra help to deal with our leaving them behind. Even so, I suspect those have to accept that help to benefit from it and it may never translate as help to their physical body/mind. They must reach for that help and when it comes embrace it.

But there were many humans who when they observed that event or read about it, knew there was something very, very different about this group that seperated them from anything else they had heard about that entailed anything that sounded like religious fanaticism. I know this as I’ve met people who have told me that. It doesn’t mean they are pursuing the basis of such a feeling but it may be an indicator of who some of the 144,000 true overcomers are, those that were given Souls during the generations since the late 1940’s.

But regarding the “beast ascending from the pit” example used, If we weren’t so engadged in proving/disproving these implications I wouldn’t harp on this difference but it’s far too easy to make very large assumptions, even thinking they are educated choices and then base what else we think, say and do on the initial erroneous state of mind.

The bottom line is that the Kingdom of God can allow as many things to come out of what is depicted here as the bottomless pit as they want. Smoke ascending from it sounds to me like a volcano. How do we know during the previous civilization on Earth’s end, saying for instance as it’s reported in certain mythologies and the story of Atlantis that may have some accurate points in it as most things do, the humans then did have significant technological development, so if they followed the course human governments and private corporations are executing as we speak and have been in earnest since at least the Reagan years, they are building underground facilities at an alarming pace, so when the Next Level comes for one last time that will not be in an “undercover” way, by incarnating into prepared human vehicles, as these governments will not be able to fight against them they will run and hide in the rocks and dens as it says in revelations and in so doing sort of entomb themselves in their dungeon for the next 1000 years. Then the Next Level can redo the surface as they orchestrate to where these humans and of course human equivilent Luciferian space aliens can not escape. That might be as easy as putting an ocean at their entrances. The humans no doubt have built many of these underground cities to withstand flooding but an ocean is another story. Yet another scenrio is to have a glacier construct and/or move mountains worth of rocks over their entrances or in some cases an entrance could be sealed with lave flows that then cool and harden or they could take a large meteor or asteroid and specifically aim it to hit the earth at each entrance which is composed of diamond materials that then are hit again to drive them deep so that no human tools to try to dig out are possible. What we do know is that the Next Level certainly has ways to seal up those they want to allow to stay alive for a while, so they can be brought back again for a new stage in the next harvest to be advasarial so students will have the appropriate challenge to grow their mind muscle from.

While I’m at it, in the next few key verses (that by the way are designed in such a way as to be useful to be accurate applicable at more than one time. For instance the first prophecy is the actual Two Christs, but then when they leave, those remnant that believes they were the rep and ask them for service then will be witnessing to these Two and thus could be called the TWO Witnesses all over again and the Kingdom of God can give these student workers the powers outlined just as the Father did to the Jesus disciples after Jesus left.:

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall (lie in) the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Note: Here “dead bodies” is treated as one greek word, ptoma which directly means, a ruin, fall, failure, defeat) and then the words, “shall lie” were entirely added to I suppose round out their interpretation in line with Kill and dead.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

dead bodies = greek: 4430 ptwma ptoma pto’-mah
 from the alternate of piptw – pipto 4098; a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion):–dead body, carcase, corpse.
4098 piptw pipto pip’-to,
 peto pet’-o; (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to petomai – petomai 4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally or figuratively):–fail, fall (down), light on.
4072 petomai petomai pet’-om-ahee,
 petaomai pet-ah’-om-ahee, or contracted ptaomai ptah’-om-ahee middle voice of a primary verb; to fly:–fly(-ing).
4431 ptwsiV ptosis pto’-sis
 from the alternate of piptw – pipto 4098; a crash, i.e. downfall (literally or figuratively):–fall.

There are clues here that suggest this is no an ordinary killing/stoppage of these two. As how are nations going to see their dead bodies. Logic would say, there was a media involved. Thus a televised large meeting could have been a possability. Ti and Do told us to be on the lookout for a large meeting advertised as television cameras are certainly not going to come to the small meetings we held unless there was already a great deal of publicity surrounding the event.

Then another point…these cameras are going to be trained on these dead bodies for 3 1/2 days? Even if that wasn’t non stop wouldn’t authorities have a hard time with allowing that in a public place. When does a dead body begin to smell. Now if it was set up ahead of time as an event they needed to plan for, like for a magic trick, one could understand it. They could put the bodies into some type of enclosure that was see through, like a glass coffin for instance so when they awoke they could simply open the door, but this would take cooperation and what would be the motive for such cooperation unless they were paid to cooperate. But these Two witnesses are dressed in sackcloth which is the clothing of either a poor person or the clothing of a mourner, if that was the picture John was trying to relay so their having funds to pay for cooperation seems unlikley and as with Jesus, he certainly didn’t seem to be interested in nor holding of monetary wealth as that was even against his nature and task to be identified with.

It’s interesting that Ti and Do never talked with us about these other interpretations. When they cancelled having public meetings with Ti saying “the harvest is over” on April 21, 1976, they later said “the demonstration” (as they called being killed and resurrected) “was cancelled because the students weren’t ready to leave” and then later said that they felt the mission “shot down/killed” when Walter Cronkite announced their human names and said they had some criminal record on national TV. You would think, when they were not being public anymore and when it seemed less likly that anyone would “kill” them, their students would have thought they were charlatans for saying they would be killed. They did expect such, though they never cherished the idea. And some early students no doubt did leave in part because that didn’t pan out as they initially said, but their core students, it didn’t phase as they were not engaged because of the scriptural prophecy. They just knew their voices. That was my response. It was after leaving them and then after their “exit” in 1997 and my reengaging my application to be in their service that I began to examine every word of that and other prophecies. All along, though they didn’t want believers to leave their following, they didn’t hesitate to deliver information or foster events they felt were “instruction” from their unseen helpers, Ti’s Heavenly Father and/or the angels assigned to assist them, that they knew would test many of the students resolve to stay the course. I have many very concrete examples of how they were unlike any other group in this and many other regards, traditional or cultish.

I don’t disbelieve that two references to the Bottomless pit have their similarities. For instance maybe the US drones are these “locusts”. The beast is personified in governments as governments are never, no matter what they say servants of the Kingdom of God, individual are, if they choose to be. And since most humans are under the influence of Luciferian programming and misinformation, deceit in many ways and have constant governmental waring they could certainly be considered to have been let out, “the luciferians who stimulate this human behaviour” from the bottomless pit. I could be all wrong about the locusts identify but I doubt they are literal insects in this example.

Now the other aspect that is noteworthy to your scriptural backed claims against Ti and Do being the Two Witnesses because you say, “Jesus gathers those that are His to Himself”.

Perhaps you are referring to this scripture that is following the opening of the 5th seal:

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

…and this is followed by what appears to be one of a number of depictions of the “last day”, as it says in 6:17 “great day of his wrath” that may be a very short time and may for us extend over some years. That might depend on the time needed for the 144,000 to be sealed. The Kingdom of God knows who they are but they each need to find a human vehicle/body that is enough of a thirsty seeker/observer/watcher to want to become a student in the next Next Level Classroom that begins when they decide to give their allegience to Ti and Do (which will always be in degrees but degrees that will grow because there is no resting on laurals):

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

or you might be referring to the sealing of the 144,000 and their being harvested “dieing in Christ” as depicted here:

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

I say the song is Ti Do. They chose the identity of musical notes, perhaps to fulfill prophecy as I’ve pointed out Jesus did at times though they do so in their own way according to what they feel is their instruction from their Older Members, the way it always works with younger members looking to older members, not at all wanting to be see as the head honcho with all the power and control.

But for the record another song that only those who are willing to believe in Ti and Do will sing that we did sing in the classroom, individually whenever we wanted to ourselves as a type of prayer, petition for help and service:

Help me have no human ways
No thoughts of self
No faults to see
only the ways of space

Now I know my heart is fast
In my Father’s path at last
Only the Ways of Space
Only the ways of spa-ace

(This is sung to the melody of the song by Bach, entitled, “Jesus, Meine Freund”)

And here is one of the many depictions of the standards to be “born of spirit/soul” that we must do while taking control of an assigned by God human flesh body:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins(means=have ceased having sex). These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile(deceit): for they are without fault before the throne of God.

OR maybe you were referring to:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude(many people), which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation(pressure), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

There are quite a few examples of those who find favour with the Lord and Lamb, Father and Son(Jesus), who overcame their humanness keeping the commandments of the Father/Lord God and Son/Jesus Son/Moses a big part of which is keeping their vehicle’s mind clear of discarnate(dead human) evil(trouble making human behavioral/mammalian, carnal level/strata/condition/programmed) influences aka spirits/ghosts.

Then yes the Rev. chapter 11 prophecy of the Two witnesses takes place following the 7th seal that instigate a silent period in Heaven. The problem with looking at all this as a precise order in terms of time is that the entire sequences are like watching a movie with big sections that are out of time or are complete overviews from a particular perspective.

However, in general the first appearance of the 7 angles you know have 7 trumphets and it’s during the sounding of the 6th trumphet that the Two Witnesses are depicted which coordinates with the 2nd woe. Thus if we are looking for the events depicted in the first 6 angels with trumphets to occur in a way we can be certain took place, then that is putting a stumbling block in front of yourself and not opening your eyes to the larger picture. For instance when you examine the 7 angels who have vials to pour onto the earth and people with the mark of the beast it’s very, very interesting that there is no trumpets there, no prior announcements. The announcements already took place before that time and that time is after the Two Witnesses have exited into the Heavens from whence they came.

In other words the entire start of Revelations is geared to announcing, declaring, crying out, sounding the trumphet, prophesizing, waring with the two edged sword of the Father and Lamb’s tongue. And it’s not until after the first harvest, those who are given white robes and are with the lamb around his throne that the next phase kicks in that will include the most tribulation in the area of the world where the Next Level had been physically most active. And this would be what some see as the pretrib rapture – the rising from the ashes to a new life for the cream of the crop, those who gave, their all, washed their robes (bodies of human mammalian ways sufficently), and thus overcame and followed the lamb wherever he went and had no guile, anger or deceit, were like children in their trust, had bonded sufficiently with their assigned Older Member.

Then all who remain get the chance to make sense out of all this and decide (the judgement time) whether they will give their overall allegience to Ti and Do, who no longer have a physical presense so can’t be worshipped except by seeking to adapt their ways to themselves or not. If not then there is no Next Level live in them and they just take their evolutionary course of perishing while some are preserved for the start of the next civilization went these remnant souls who were “saved” are brought back for their next “trimester” of school/birth.

However, I have attempted to address all this in detail:

I have studied the related scriptures re: the 6th and 7th seal, 5th angel and two witnesses as you suggest show that the two witnesses have not yet come, as well as all the contextual scriptures around these. And I have looked at others have said about these and I am well aware of the many views, some of which declare that the Book of Revelations as a whole does not fit into a strict chronological depiction of God’s interactions with the Earth/Humans in Their promised return and the Last “Judgement” Day. However, as you may know there is a chronology of events essentially surrounding the 7 seals, 7 angels with 7 trumphets and later with 7 vials, mingled with the 3 woes, the 4 horns, 4 angels with the 4 winds, 7 spirits/eyes over the 7 churches, etc. However, it is also evident that there are types of seeming repetitions of events. We must pay special attention to the fact that John is being shown these things that all pertain to the future, though reference the past, as with the first three chapters that speak directly to each of the then existing 7 churches whom he is instructed to send what he is being given to.

Then there are the “players” so to speak to consider, the Lord who sits on the throne who evidences being the Lord/God the Father, the Lamb, “Son of Man”, Jesus, The four living beings that are labeled with the english word, “beast” which is a big mistake as it’s not the same word as the beast from the bottomless pit, the former working for the Kingdom of God and the later reflecting wild beastial acting humans however organized into governments, etc. Then there are the 24 elders that were born into the Kingdom and have their own “seats” around the throne which brings to mind Jesus saying to his close disciples, (paraphrased), “in my Father’s house there are many dwelling places…I will go to prepare a place (seat/task) for each of you”. Then there are those who died apparantly giving their personal testimony of their experience with Jesus and those who are still “giving their lives, physically and mentally” to God the Lamb that will result in their dying “in Christ”. Then there are those who are “sealed” which is also a term called being “marked” as both the Kingdom of God and the Human Beasts have a way to mark their own. The entire “jugdgement time” is based on who we each decide to give our allegience to, God vs Mammon, which is to the Kingdom of God through their representatives sent to us vs to Humans which includes the human equivilent Space aliens that are often depicted as “birds” (flying dragon/(even reptilian) serpents/hissers – deceiving manipulators of the truth about the Kingdom of God). And finally there are the false prophet players who are those that appear to be prophets but are wolves in sheeps clothing and this is very clearly all who are the leaders and speakers preachers, evangelically active prostelitizing humans that most often are associated with any number of spiritual and/or religious organizations (sects/cults).

Not having the ability to see the actual manuscript chunks and fragments that were analysed and formed into “books” of the Bible and in particular the Book of Revelations, I have no way beyond evaluating each part whether the order given us is the order of these visions/dreams as they were received by John as I doubt he got all 22 chapters all in one experience.

The Book actually seems to clearly demonstrate various vantage points, even each with their own overview that has a start and a finish. For instance chapter’s 1, 2, 3 addressing the current groups of believers in Jesus (at the time John was still alive in a physical human body), 4 and 5 introducing “players” on the Kingdom of God side and related to the Book of Life, 6 and 7 (chronology of events starting with the Lamb (white horse and rider) but including overall overview), 8,9, and 10 the 7 angels with trumphets, 11 the Two Witnesses(Christs) prophecy arrival and departure, 12 an entire overview, 13 a focus on the human beast like organizations, 14 the overall harvests of overcomers, the cutting of the wheat which we know takes place after the weeds have been removed (according to Jesus in his illustration of the Wheat and the Tares growing together), 15 and 16 the angels/events of the 7 angels with vials (the physical execution of the events depicted by the angels with sounding trumphets), 17 and 18 the downfall of Babylon (the new one), 19 details in the war for souls, 20 the actual judgement of the dragon and false prophets and all those not in the book of life, 21 and 22 the Temple of God the Father and Son physcially with those who graduated and were saved for a future graduation opportunity and a new heaven (not talking about the abode of members of the Kingdom of God) and new (reconditioned) Earth will all the weeds/tares removed/recycled.

But before a detailed analysis of the Seven Angels with trumphets and later with vials parts of Revelations, I’ll correct what you said.

The only references within Chapter 11 that contains the Two Witnesses prophecy referring to the “angel sounding (their trumphet)” are here:

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As this is saying the “second woe is past, and the two witnesses prophecy is right before this, I think it fairly safe to conclude the two witnesses were related to the second woe that just past and the 6th angel’s sounding since the 7th and last sounds AFTER the two witnesses came and exited.

And with this introduction here is my 7 angels overview, a lengthy work that I will publish seperatly from this post: I apologize that there is some repetition here with what I have just written about. It still needs lots of work but there is a ton of information here that anyone who has interest in the Bible should be able to gleen something from even if they don’t end up believing in Ti and Do.

* seven 7 angels with seven 7 trumphets:

Note these 7 angels spoken of in Rev. 8-11 all have trumphets and sound the voices of their trumphets. In other words they communicate, having information to deliver. This isn’t reflective of magic, except in the way humans don’t understand the mechanics these depictions actually represent. The term “angels” are not winged cherubs. They are depicted with wings because they are said to “fly” through the sky(heavens) but before there were flying forms of transportation, birds and insects were the only evidence of any ability of something living to fly thus these “angels” were illustrated by artists with “wings”. (eg “Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,…”)

It is of special note that these 7 Angels are not depicted as flying. A flying angel if it was able to be seen by humans with or without technology would usually appear with a “natural disguise” like a cloud or asteriod or meteor or comet or star. I am aware that the Kingdom of God can show us whatever they want to show us and They may at times show some one thing while others another.

An angel in the Greek and Hebrew had the same meaning:

Angel = Greek: 32 aggelos {ang’-el-os} from aggello [probably derived from 71, cf 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

Angel = Hebrew: 04397 mal’ak {mal-awk’} from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; TWOT – 1068a; n m AV – angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1; 214, a messenger, representative

Thus these 7 angels are simply communicating, the method of which isn’t indicated clearly except in saying they are sounding their trumphet.

A trumphet is mechanism to make an announcement, the reason the early Jews, even many to date have in their brains that the messiah would come blowing a shofar, a lambs horn on the Jerusalem Temple mount. It’s a public way of making a loud announcement. What is being announced is the messenger’s VOICE.

Everything in the Book of Revelations, though figurative has a literal manifestation that human beings are the intended audience for. Messenger(s) sent by the Kingdom of God to deliver a message of what’s to come is both informative and a call to consider changing one’s mind (repentence), as no matter what we think about our relationship with the Kingdom of God, it can always be improved upon. When we adopt more of the thinking and behaviors given to us from the Kingdom of God through their messengers aka ambassadors or representatives, we are in a real sense swapping out our human, carnal, mammalian ways of thinking and acting for the examples provided us through the representative(s) sent to us (as a human genetic tree) in times past, passed down and providing that trees current leaves to choose to implement or not.

Now, some may wonder, why the Kingdom of God doesn’t just broadcast as with a loudspeaker or some sort of concrete way to deliver to each human the message rather than operate with such secrecy. It’s because that would be manipulative of us. We would not have a chance to build our recognition and the faith that comes with increased recognition and because many are not asking God to receive what’s next for us to understand and do. Others who are asking in a way would have a hard time understanding and relating to their lives what is being transmitted as few want to change to a greater unknown while everyone is in a slightly different place of understanding and desire to have moreorless a relationship with the Kingdom of God. So the Kingdom of God periodically sends a trusted representative in an undercover way that we can’t clearly identify as having come from the Kingdom of God. This is the best way to provide those who are asking a huge opportunity, but one they must be willing to take a “leap of faith” to embrace fully.

“Undercover” is to come as one of us, as Moses said, …the return would be “just like me”, “born of flesh” aka a “son of huMAN”. The Soul of the sent representative literally prepares a particular human body who is asking or if still a baby one that would not otherwise survive to start interfacing with gradually until the time that they need to begin the task they came to do. In the case of Jesus, that task began formally when he began interfacing with the public starting with John the Baptist at which time John witnesses the Kingdom of God’s soul body entering more fully into the body Jesus. This way Jesus could spoon feed new updated thinking and acting to those humans who were also prepared to receive him and would in turn also become a willing host (though they didn’t know it, to a student Soul being given their next best opportunity to move closer to an eventual graduation into membership in the Kingdom of God.

Now in a large way when a representative is sent, they bring with them Their consciousness, or a certain amount of it, from the Kingdom of God which translates to the human kingdom as upgrades to all behavior and ways and at the same time stimulates advances and exploration in every department of the human environment. The bursting of new ideas are not met with enthusiasm by those that were not born at the time when the main burst of Kingdom of God representative “holy” Mind/Spirit is provided so it’s presense also stimulates the negative to become stronger to hold it’s ground.

Thus when you see large shifts in advancements, more open mindedness to new ideas, more willingness to status the status quo in any department of life, even if there are life or comfort level threats to doing so as well as trends in behavioral change and extremes, then we can know that the Kingdom of God representative(s), as they operate in crews though most are hidden from human view, is at “hand” – in other words, the representatives are in the area, within the Earth environment and are even operating through human vehicles they prepared ahead of time to receieve their more advanced MINDS. (Advancement is different for a member of the Kingdom of God and for a human).

Also when it’s said that an angel sounded, the term angel is not a singular term as the Kingdom of God operates in partnerships and crews, as Jesus had his Father (though hidden) with him and John the Baptist who recognized him, who was sent ahead to “prepare the way” as prophesized and the 11 of his closest disciples were as Jesus said, paraphrased, “given to Him by His Father, which he kept 11 of the 12” and Moses had the Lord in the cloud who would visit him and Aaron who the Lord also gave tasks to and Miriam and Joshua as his student helpers. Remember how Jesus sent out his 70 disciples in two’s and said, paraphrased, “where two or more are touching on any one thing in my name, I am in their midst. It’s more efficient as the two operate as “check partners” one for the other, helping them to be more objective to better discern and choose behavior and ways the rep from the Kingdom of God teaches regarding their task assignment.

Thus these 7 angels, messengers’ voice that is designed for human comprehension goes thru the incarnate representative assigned the task of interfacing IT to their student body and in process to all those who are given the Kingdom of God seed, to have the opportunity, some, in some way asked for, so to begin to become part of a future student body that could eventually lead to production of “fruit” for the Kingdom of God’s sake, as that’s why the “garden” and all it’s life forms are developmentally created.

The present incarnate representative takes the message, that actually has mulitple facets to it, a snapshot of which can be seen as the reason why Rev 18. references to the 7 angles who don’t have trumphets having a slightly different context and application detail, but the same core as demonstrated below, and applys it to their task priority which takes shape as a public delaration of shedding more light on what The Kingdom of God really is, why They are hear and what the requirements are to be included in a program that is focused on training to be a trusted member on their crew, actually performing tasks, some of which may be to be a messenger and another an observer/watcher and another in transportation, another in a laboratory for instance.

To think that the Kingdom of God isn’t many times more intricately organized and involved in a hands on way with every single aspect of the “creation” is like saying a corporation that makes computers doesn’t have their hands in every aspect of their product. To see the Kingdom of God as a strictly spiritual dimension that somehow willed into existence what we call “nature” is a generalization that was enough to understand for the early leaves off the human genetic tree, but as all things progressed and humans via technology advancements began to see and understand more of what was previously unable to be clearly detected and seen, more of the actual reality of the Kingdom of God’s design mechanics could also become seen and understood by those who were pressing for it, which renders those that still clung to the generalized understanding in a type of comparitive illusion.

However, person to person, it’s a continuous choice to cling to the past in understanding and ways or build upon what was given to us by the Kingdom of God in times past. The religions in general cling to the past as if there can be no updates, thus when the new representatives arrives and sounds the trumphet, it is met with anything but open arms from the religious leadership who often dictate to their followers how to think and act. These then become the “false prophets” as they look like “sheep” trying to adhere to certain aspects of the past information brought by the Kingdom of God and insisting that others must do so as well or else they are evil and condemned to the second death in the lake of fire as it has been prophesized. Little do they know, the humans who think of themselves as sheep of the Shepherd, or disciples of Jesus, their minds are being commondeered by the “wolves”, those predator “fallen angels” who are allowed by the Kingdom of God to be loosed to provide a testing criteria to all those who wish to proceed towards harvestability aka their Soul’s literal birth into membership in the Kingdom of God, what the Luciferians have convinced many will happen automatically by simply living by the 10 commmandments and paying homage/tithing to a religion and/or by belief alone, as we can witness in what’s been called the “born again” movement/mindset.

So these announcements and the calamities that follow in degrees of application are also the ways the Kingdom of God gives ALL humans many chances to “change their mind” from human “mind” to Kingdom of God “Mind”. In other words, the way the Kingdom of God works is to use their representatives on Earth, in physical human bodies as the mouthpieces, so for these angels to have sounded means their representatives are physically incarnate to do so, though those representatives don’t stay around for the calamities as that’s not their lesson material to deal with. (This is why some Christians argue that the “dead in Christ who rise first don’t experience the “tribulation” period. They don’t. The problem with this thinking is, that those who deam themselves the “dead in Christ” however they define “dead” did not estinguish all their human forms of sensuality which includes the sense stimulus of a mindset as in being religious or spiritual, or even intellectual as well as those forms of sensuality having to do with human sexuality and human family root systems. And even if there are some that to the best of their ability have tried to estinguish these fires, if they had not had a chance to do that while in the physical company of a present representative from the Kingdom of God then they would not have transferred to the new Kingdom of God family tree. In other words this is why some say you can’t earn your way into Heaven, as you can’t UNLESS you are literally and physically under the tutoring of the ONE true Older Member from the Kingdom of God sent to us to be our midwife, or shepherd or spouse. They are absolutely needed to give us the step by step process that has been termed “overcoming” the human condition/world. And this is what the sounding angels will be indicating the timing to be expressed. The voice will not be a threat so much as a notification of who is talking and what’s needed to reap the promised rewards. But then what of the calamities described in the sounding of each angel’s trumphet?

Calamities essentially provide people the choice to seek God’s help, in whatever language they think about God, or not and based upon that response the Kingdom of God will at times help those whom they determine are sincere to even physically survive the calamity or will keep that spirit or soul safe from being recycled(second death), so the Soul can be nurtured towards further growth. This is much like a pruning process of a gardener. They have to cut part of the plant off, killing some aspect of that bush in order to allow it to recover and come back stronger to produce the fruit it’s intended to produce. It’s not like the Kingdom of God promised anyone anything by allowing them to grow in the provided environment. Thus any life at all is in reality a gift to each of us. To curse the creator’s Kingdom and whoever the Admiral and Captain are at the helm of our particular garden experience is showing how little appreciation they have for even one day of life. Life becomes fully taken for granted by many. And this is also part of the garden experiment’s design to allow humans to become and think about whatever they want to become and think about regardless of how far off the reality track it is. But when humans begin to thrive off the backs of other humans to a degree that they begin to affect the production of fruit, new memberhip to the Kingdom of God, then it’s time that all the weeds be erradicated. The 7 angels demonstrate the process of that eradication of the weeds. Of course the weeds don’t think they are deserving of being pulled up and burned.

To follow are the scriptures regarding the “7 Angels with/without the trumphets” in Reveations.

Note the examples that follow the Angel’s sounds are physical changes to take place on Earth sometime in the future. It says in verse 8:6 that they “prepared themselves to sound”, and when the first angel sounds it says “there followed hail and fire…”. “follow could be 40 seconds to years our time, for example. In verse 8:8 the third part of the sea “(begins to)become” blood, as in 8:11 “became wormwood”, indicating a process, so it’s altogether possible some of these are in motion as we speak or that we on Earth have had some hints and examples that by paying attention to can alert us to how prophecy is being fulfilled that could bring us on a more open minded seeking of how the representatives may well be present or perhaps were preseant. Anyone that assumes they would KNOW when “the son of man from the Kingdom fo God” would return may in fact be the last to know, but at least as long as they are in a human vehicle they have a chance to still look.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Note: Thus servent(s) of the Lord at the disciple level and in particular the writer John will prophesy again…that means once again have a physical body (born of flesh is necessary to be born of Soul/Spirit/Mindtalk to people) spreading the information given him from a member of the Kingdom of God, in this case the Soul that was last using the human (son of man) vehicle named Jesus.

Now for reference I have included Rev. 11 as the last place we see evidence of the 7 Angels, with 7 trumphets, the last three of which are woe’s described: (I will re-translate using the Greek to English word origins from Strong’s concordance/dictionary a little later to show how Ti and Do and Students fulfilled it all, down to every verse.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Note: Again the seventh angel sounds and there are voices in heaven that declare who the King is. Heaven in this case just might be the electronic/satellite connected media and internet whose signals go thorought what has always been spoken about as a “heaven”, the sky, etc.

Then we have the seven angels appear again but this time with Vials:

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Below is a comparison between the 7 Angels with 7 trumphets (5,6,7 also have Woes) in Revelations 8,9,10,11 and the 7 Angels with Vials in Rev. 16 showing how they evidence being the same 7 Angels, but the Rev. 8, etc. all “sound” (the voice of the Trumphet thus has an announcement to them, thus are not implemented until the depiction of the 7 Angels with vials.

The vials are defined as wide shallow bowls or saucers and as we saw before contain some ingredients that when poured onto certain areas of the Earth environment stimulate a type of fumagation process. In other words, it kills whatever it’s directed to kill and in this case the garden is being weeded, so it is killing all those that a thriving but devouring even the fruit that the Kingdom of God planted, the reason for the Earth and life to begin with thus needs to be erradicated. Of course the weeds don’t see themselves as weeds and in some cases don’t know any better but it’s just a matter of a short time before they all die off anyway so the Kingdom of God is simply deciding to escalate that otherwise normal process so they can move on to the their next phase of beginning to plant a new garden plot. So here is the comparison:

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Note: that some of these seem to be what was depicted in various scriptures from the 4 gospels and previous Revelations scriptures.

First Angel: Both speak of affecting the Earth(land) and resulting in bloodshed:

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled(mixed) with blood(shed), and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

These sores could be any number of diseases that afflict humans. The reason only those with mark of the beast are afflicted is because those that seek to be in the keeping of the Kingdom of God are asking for help whenever they have a problem and the Kingdom of God, depending on their sincerity, that the Kingdom of God knows, as being in the keeping means asking the Kingdom of God regularily to be in their service with a willingness to give their lives physically and mentally. Thus they get help to steer away from those things that stimulate the breakdown of the vehicle’s immune system to stave off diseases. It doesn’t mean these don’t also experience difficulities. They simply put it in the kingdom of God’s hands while seeking solutions the kingdom of God might provide that might be a nutritional program or ceasing certain behaviors and/or using certain techniques to help the vehicle adapt to new mental attitudes.

Second Angel: They both include the Seas being affected:

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Third Angel: Both affect the Rivers and fountains and bring death to humans and other creatures. When something becomes blood it’s because of bloodshed, same meaning in Greek:

Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Note the reference to “fell a great star from heaven” one of at least two depictions:
 Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Forth Angel: Both of these affect the Sun, possibly to cause lots of sun spots that send more heat to the Earth. Sure a certain amount of global warming is recorded but here is the biggest reason for it, not human pollution as bad as that is. Many humans don’t have any desire nor perception of the creator’s kingdom so do/say anything to justify what they otherwise have zero control over.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Note: This also seems to relate directly to:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
So the seals go hand in hand with both the warnings sounded of events to come and the events themselves, the seals pertaining more to the reponses of those who experience the warnings and events.

Fifth Angel: Both have to do with the (SEAT of The) BEAST(2342 therion = beastial(wild) humans) and the bottomless pit, where the BEAST is said to ascend out of, as seen in the references below:

Scriptural References where beastial humans are implicated:
 Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
 Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
 Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Referenced to “star fall from heaven”:
 Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Sixth Angel: Both have to do with the river Euphrates

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Note: This may be one of the “spirits like frogs” coming out of each of the mouth’s of dragon/devil (fallen Luciferian based space aliens), beast (human who act like animals as predators, even though it can look normal, like business as usual) and false prophet, the staunch religionists – “wolves in sheeps clothing”.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Seventh Angel: Both demonstrate a Voice that announces being DONE/Finished.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

By the time this seventh voice begins to sound, the “Son of Man”, the Lamb of God, The Son of the Father from Heaven, known 2000 years ago as Jesus the Christ, would have completed, at least the promised returned phase of coming as one of us again (as a Son of huMAN), though the time period as it says in Rev. 10:7, “in the days of the voice…” for humans is certainly of some duration, but spoken of in “days”, which in addition to the modern meaning of 24 hours simply means a short period of time, but in God’s time an hour is like nearly 40 years using the 1 day for God is 1000 years for humans formula that Peter spoke of.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I say this statement that “it is done, the MYSTERY OF GOD should be finished, according to the Present “servants, the prophets”, because John was told he had to prophesize AGAIN, thus referring to the last time he prophesized 2000 years ago, as evidenced by his letters and this writing which he may have distributed to some degree before his body died is saying that the Soul called Jesus must have completed what he said he would upon his return.

Whatever is the instrument of this on earth will be revealing, “show us plainly/directly of the Father”, no more in parables/stories so there will no longer be a mystery in interpretations. However, does this mean all those who are tossing around interpretations will recognize the Mystery revealed. It’s a case by case basis.

This seventh angel doesn’t sound until AFTER the TWO Witnesses have ascended back to Heaven/into the clouds(spacecraft)(NOT space alien) from whence they came as TWO Christs.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

kill is greek apokteino which together apo + Kteino indicates a haulting. There are other words for slaying someone or killing someone or murdering someone. The Beastial humans do overcome them when they announce on Network TV that they were no longer The Mysterious Two, as the movie title said, starring John Forsyth as Bo(Do), but were Marshall Herrf Applewhite and Bonnie Lu Truesdale Nettles from Texas and that they had both been arrested and Do spent time in prison. They were “shot down” by the press.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street(commons) of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

They felt stopped and felt they lost any credability, until they realized they never had any credability anyway which was some 3 days later. They also thought they would not be able to go anywhere without being arrested, accused of taking advantage of others, etc. But after 3 days they decided they must continue. They had about 70 something students then, and since the group had been infiltrated by Rob Balch and his friend, and en masse we’d be easy to notice/find in campground, they split us up to finish up the prohesizing that John was told he’d have to do again.

Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Their stopped bodies, were stopped in the national media commons/street and they were in Las Vegas then, (The SPIRITUAL area of Sodom and Egypt where Jesus was crucified).

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead(stopped) bodies to be put in graves(have a monument made for them).

The only way all these different people could see this is through the media and they and their picture was all over the news starting in October of 1975 and in every major news magazine and TV and Radio news program.

In other words no one wanted to memorialize them.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The people were glad to hear who they were as for nearly a month the reports were talking about this or that missing person and their rendevous with a UFO. They were accused of having something to do with cattle mutilations which we certainly did not. People were tormented by them, then and then again in 1997 as this causes the brain to spasm for many.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

So while in Las Vegas feeling haulted, they literally had to pick themselves up to face the music and did meetings for the next 6 months.

But as is common with the Kingdom of God prophecies, I believe this also can refer to their taking a stand once again as the Heaven’s Gate cult which really put fear into people to see. In either case, 17 years passed, a tiny period of time for the KIngdom of God…

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

That great voice from heaven, they only heard, no one else. That voice was the sign/token and instruction that approved their plan to exit that the halebopp comet w/companion verified. It was not by far the only evidence they had to leave by as they had 24 years of direction to this end/beginning.

They did ascend up to the sky/heaven, God’s abode, into a spacecraft (cloud). Humans just could not see their ascension. Their enemies watched them (on TV news and Internet videos as they left a bunch of testimonials by students so there could be little doubt they were acting on their own volition adn why – For Do, for the KIndom of God/Father, Ti’s sake).

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake(shaking), and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

I suspect this was the 9/11/2001 WTC Washington terrorist attacks. Many people’s bodies were completly pulverized so we may never know how many were killed and if that includes those who die from the poisons breathed in by the rescue crews on the “pile” plus this isn’t something the Kingdom of God will predict with an absolute knowledge of as they don’t have such control over this garden that they know how many will die when that exactly. However, there was an earthquake very near october of 1975 in China where 7000 families were reported killed.

(I have posted a much more thorough Rev. 11 interpretation with more documentation on my blog).

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Note: Again the seventh angel sounds and there are voices in heaven that declare who the King is. In other words, the Lord and his Christ are in full control over what’s to happen next. Heaven in this case just might be the electronic/satellite connected media and internet whose signals go throughout what has always been spoken about as a “heaven”, the sky, etc.

And with this we see on International television, radio, internet, newspapers, spoken word the witness of the Heavens Gate “cult’s” laying down all their physical lives representing the cutting of the wheat stalk of harvest.

Anyone can watch Do give his last message via video prepared just weeks before they layed down their lives. He is in full control though of course few will watch or consider he is, but that remains to be proven even to the scoffers and doubters upon his last return, but this time not to walk among us again. This next time he may still be visible to many in some way and may appear as he did on that last video for the sake of those who know his picture with is literally millions of people who say that video on the news in 1997.

**** end of 7 angels…insert ****

Henry said:

For the heaven’s gate group to therefore claim that the two witnesses have already fulfilled their ministry is again another lie in the face of scripture.

Sawyer says:

Again, what scripture, but I guess you need to examine my responses to speak to.

However, you are so quick to say someone is lying. What do I have to gain from lying, the fulfillment that I’m doing the right thing, am right with God by believing in Ti and Do? I hardly need you for that, someone I never met and probably never will who can offer me nothing except a chance to look at your perspective which I don’t get anything new from so nothing to consider further.

In any case how could lying help me believe? Wouldn’t that be like shooting myself in the foot. A lie is when someone says something they know is untrue is it not or that they can’t know is untrue. It’s actually impossible for any of us to KNOW what is NOT possible, except in what we are given by Jesus to understand that way, which is little.

Henry said:

This has not been a detailed study on the heaven’s gate group nor was it intended to be but I believe I have left the reader in no doubt about the deceptive nature of the group. Their purpose is clearly not to fulfill the mission of Christ even though they may have been deceived into thinking that it is. I only pray that those who encounter them will stay clear of them and those who remain in the group may see the light of Christ and be awakened out of their deception.

Sawyer says:

And what was deceptive exactly. What did Ti and Do say ever that was deceptive. Sure it’s not something you believe in but that doesn’t mean it’s deceptive. Again, accusations galore but no meat. Just banter! However, it affords me the opportunity to show those just how much meat there was to Ti and Do.

And Henry and anyone who reads this…THERE IS NO GROUP. THEY ARE GONE SO THERE’S NO PLACE TO GO SEE THEM OR STATUES TO WORSHIP. The only left is the records they left and people like me working for them in abstentia.

The mission of Christ has been so twisted that many think they fulfill it. They only have to read the gospels and take every word to heart as if he was talking to each of us, to realized how far short we all fall in living up to his commandments and ways/sayings that he said are what show the fruit of a true disciple. Of course it’s all in degrees and our successes and failures are all successes if we press on, seeking the Kingdom of God’s help and wanting to be in Their service.

I leave you with a final thought?

Where is one iota of heracy (talking or acting against) the Bible and any of it’s Kingdom of God representatives, their commandments and depictions?

You can follow Henry and his readers responses to date on:


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