Ti and Do vs Jim Jones

The following is an exchange on youtube re: diffences between ti and Do and Jim Jones.

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Youtube Ti and Do critic:
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Sawywer come on, you ask me to examine the evidence but you need to practise what you preach. When I refered to Jonestownn being the same as Heaven’s gate… well there is a huge similiarity. Two groups lead by the idea’s of one man. And both groups ending in the same result, the loss of human life before it’s time based on faith or the beliefs of that individual.
I can look at the human atrocities that have existed in my life time and surely will witness more as i grow older, but I can’t see how that will make me think any different of Ti and Do’s theory’s. The difference is I will look at the atrocities of mankind, war, famine,the weather etc have created and think “what can we do to make this better” or I can look at Ti and Do’s example which is “Let’s give up and do a runner”.
And the evidence you presented of space craft does not act as evidence to Ti and Do’s theories one bit. Even if there were guaranteed evidence of space craft that doesn’t confirm that we will board these vessel’s by killing ourselves.
I want to understand your way of thinking and I suppose I was to harsh with the comments I left on your page for which I apologise. I am fasinated by these theories Ti and Do made and I am fasinated with “cults” and human beliefs and behaviour which is why I looked them up on the net but my first reaction when I learned of their demise was one of horror and despair. I simply find suicide to be devastating.
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Sawyer’s response:
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Suicide is NOT an answer to anything. That’s not the Ti and Do message. If someone lives their whole life based on certain principles and let’s say they were the epitomy of a giving/loving person and then decides to take their own life, does that event define them. Now that’s not a good example really, but so many people think because they killed themselves they had no value or offerred nothing or had no good(useful) reason. Most assume it was evil to useless. But why assume anything? What does drawing conclusions accomplish? Why not withhold judgement. Isn’t it perfectly clear there are tons of huge things in this world we DON’T understand? Can one count on science to explain everything? No, we can’t. Science is just a process to try to get to understand how things work. We could never understand any of them and guess what, those things would still work. Nothing in nature is depentant on any humans unless humans force it to depend on them.
I really don’t want to convice you. It does me no good. I gain nothing. I dont’ go to other believers and say, “I got one to convert”. I dont’ even assume current believers are 100% a believer in what Ti and Do said/did. I will take my experience to the grave whether someeone believes in what I believe in or not. The deck is already very stacked against me in this.
Now to say jim jones and Do were the same because they were both “groups led by one man that had the same end result” is very inaccurate. First off, if you looked at Ti and Do you will find that Ti, the woman who “got Do started” and told us (their students) we’d have to “give our will to them” only after being with them 5 years or so, there’s a huge difference. They were TWO. How many cult leaders were TWO with the same mindset? You will find some now of course as they have since sprung up, but before or during the time of Ti and Do very few and if you do find some their agenda will greately vary.
Have you watched and listened to the video footage of Jim Jones preaching during the jonestown massecur? If not you need to, so you can see just how very different in many ways they are from Ti and Do. Then look at the reaction of the people – crying, weeping and running away with Jim Jones goons holding rifles to them – It was either drink the poison or get shot at point blank range in the head. What would you do? Then look at the film of the students of Do. Well thought out. No threats, Visual/audion explanations by many students about how they loved Do and the Next Level (kingdom of God) and were glad and honored to be ending their task.
Of course to someone who has no sense of a reality beyond death, this makes zero sense but then Jesus and Moses and all would also make zero sense. jesus especially was not concerned at all with preserving the life of the body, but preserving the life of the soul. If that sounds like a fairy tale then of course anything about Ti and Do would follow likewise.
But not entirely neccessarily. One doesn’t have to belief or have experience with anything to be willing to “reserve judgement” and yet still want to observe more.
The third HUGE difference and I can’t stress how huge this is and how it differs from nearly EVERY if not EVERY group:
In the Jim Jones group there were full families. There were moms, dads, and children galore. Ti and Do would not allow any children becasue they said a child could not decide for themselves to believe in what Ti and Do were saying and act accordingly. AND there were no FAMILIES. None. If a mom and daughter joined, they were from that moment on operating as if they were not related. That didnt’ at all mean they would be mean to one another or ignore one another. And there was NO SEX. These are HUGE beyond decription differences because jim jones was teachign same old human relationships with god talk occasionally while Ti and Do were expecting theri students to discard everythign they were including induldgence in sexuality.
Even Sun Yuny Moon married off his students. None of Ti and Do’s students ever had sex together let along a marriage ceremony like that though they did have committmenrts to help one another in their overcoming of all their humanness.
There are dozens of more examples.
Then there are dozens of direct prophesises that Ti and Do clearly and direclty fullfilled, and in the proper terminological definitions pertinent to their time period and language.
But you’ll have to watch all my youtube video’s to begin to see all this and read most of my blog articles.
Now with this said, this does not mean that what they did in any respect is being offerred to you or anyone in such a way that you are doing somethiung wrong to not want it or not want to pursue it further.
There is so much more but I’m weary so perhaps I’ll continue in some way soon.

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2 Responses to “Ti and Do vs Jim Jones”

  1. tmmody Says:

    Jim Jones was a drugged out megalomaniac — who probably never really believed in the crap he was selling — most don’t it is just a way to make tons of money, fame, etc.

    I think Do and Ti were sincere. Were they insane? I don’t think so — I think the human brain wants to latch onto meaning like CO to hemoglobin. The human brain (mind is same thing cf Wilder Penfield and Phineas Gauge or Rosemarie Kennedy)… is DESPERATE to latch onto meaning. Dear “GOD” give us meaning… etc. I’m desperate to find meaning… I’m just not prone to believe the first buggy eyed dipshit with a story.

    But Do’s life was in freefall — and there was a serendipitous meeting with someone who “what?” — not sure, Ti wanted to fuck Do, she wrote her friends about that… I don’t know if we’ll ever know her true motivations… but it wasn’t to bilk the gullible deadheads in the class out of money… I don’t know… her biography might be interesting. But probably not– too plain common. There were so many ufo cults going around and they still are springing up all the time.

    Desperation for meaning isn’t the same as a megalomaniacal speed addict sadist like Jones.

    I just hope SWYODY doesn’t take his life. But he should be given the door to the truth before he does.

    The mountains of mythology the human race has generated over its time is a testament to the sheer desperation and ravenous hunger we have for meaning. Heck, a lot of them are just DYING for the world to end because it will @ least give them something. But, the world isn’t going to end in a long time… maybe the yeast infection called humans will wipe themselves out — let’s just hope they leave sea mollusks or dung beetles alive to enjoy the quiet.

    I can’t imagine Do bitch-slapping class members … but it is sort of a funny image. Jones beat the shit out of his sheep…

    • sawyer Says:

      you said, “But Do’s life was in freefall — and there was a serendipitous meeting with someone who “what?” — not sure, Ti wanted to fuck Do, she wrote her friends about that…”

      So if you are so smart give me the evidence or are you full of hot air? Describe to me the evidence that adds up to “freefall” and what of it if he was not happy with his life. He still had a good job. He was still singing and performing and teaching and hanging out with his social crowd. Why was it a free fall, because he wasn’t happy with the homosexual relationships he’d engaged in, because as he told us he wanted a more committed relationship and his relationships kept falling apart and he got to a place that he just would rather not have sex at all. That’s freefall? Or is the fact that he was divorced a free fall? It’s so easy to be someone who passes on lies and innuendo based on 1/1000th truthes.

      I’m aware of Terri’s letter that she hasn’t actually published or made publically available that I am aware of, except she did read one letter to a group after 1997 in Montana but I didn’t attend because at that time I really did not want to reawaken my relationship with Ti and Do – I was busy being purely human and my vehicle was enjoying that. However, I plan to meet with Terri about it so I can talk accurately about where this idea came from, if she will meet with me as the last time I spoke to her, neither she nor I were in a chatty frame of mind, in 1997.

      So if you know her send her a message for me or if you know anyone that knew Ti or Do and want to talk about what they experienced I would love to hear their testimonies or opinions.

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