No Real Comparison of Jonestown suicides with Heaven’s Gate

At the end is the link to an article that compared Jonestown to Heaven’s Gate that I show really has little to no genuine equivalent comparison other than both their groups membership physically dying by ingesting drugs under the leadership of one leader. Based on that one could equate the president of a country as a dangerous cult leader who stimulates their soldiers to give their lives which I know to many seems preposterous to compare but is it really?

On the surface these two groups can be barely compared and I don’t doubt that from a membership prospective there were some tiny likenesses but other than that there is no comparison except in the use of poison to end their vehicles lives.

To follow are  some of the many huge differences that reveal this comparison as a typical Luciferian Soul “facsimile” production of what Ti and Do were doing. And it’s interesting how some of those who initially joined with Ti and Do in 1975, from the first meeting in North Hollywood around April 21st thought that they (Ti and Do) were promoting suicide both literally and figuratively which was not the case literally then, even if one did define suicide by it’s human definition as self stimulated death of one’s body. Figuratively speaking Ti and Do’s group were more realistically ending their human lifestyle entirely where in the Jones camp humanness was not changed at all really according to the evidence. Some of what I’m saying about the fear of suicide came from Joan Culpepper (more of an infiltrator into the group than a follower as she stated). Plus there was a relative of a student who testified her fear of their committing suicide in 1975 (about three years before the Jonestown event) that was documented in the book “UFO Missionaries Extraordinary.” Here are some snippets of that book on this blog:

So here are the key differences that are major in the Jonestown People Temples group that there was not even a shade of indicator of in the Heaven’s Gate group:

1. Children were forced to drink the poison cocktail. One can see and hear it in the video with Jones preaching to do it while people are crying. Ti and Do didn’t allow children in their group.

2. If only one person disagreed and was forced to ingest the poison cocktail the entire idea could not be compared with Heaven’s Gate group. This was evidenced in the Jonestown story by video testimony and survivors. Some people who fled that last meeting were hunted down by gunmen. People were held at gunpoint to ingest the poison according to the records. In the Heaven’s Gate group people were challenged to leave throughout and 19 of the initial 100 members in 1976 were separated from the larger group and Ti and Do said they didn’t make the “first cut” on who they thought could accomplish the task of overcoming all their humanness.

3. Murder of the congressman at the airport as they attempted to leave was also a huge indicator of how different Jonestown was from Heaven’s Gate. The records indicate that Jim Jones was stimulated to take this action to escape prosecution when he learned that some in his group had passed notes to the congressman saying that they wanted to get out.

4. The People’s temple was a human social and political group. Heaven’s Gate was not social nor political. Spirituality seemed to be mostly absent from the documentaries I watched but if it was a big part was not any different from other spiritual and/or religious groups that had political and community support before they moved to Guyana. Heaven’s Gate wasn’t religious or spiritual in that context. The only reason they are considered religious is because it is through the man made worldly religions that the records of the Next Level’s incarnate activity was passed on and because the nature of the information was about Mind – “the character of the soul” as DO once defined Mind, that he taught was synonymous with the word, “spirit”.

5. Members of the People’s Temple did not leave everything behind to join with Jones – mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, children, houses, etc. (as Jesus taught some of his disciples had done (i.e. Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. ) and that all Ti and Do’s students were instructed to do (though there was no way to verify that any one student had done but it was talked about as having an “ace in the hole” for those that didn’t. However I read one report that indicated Ti and Do turned away at least one person who was considering joining with them. She had children and it was reported that Ti and Do said she shouldn’t follow with them at that time and that perhaps she might follow later (See UFO Missionaries Extraordinary)).

Jones and his group were a human organization with human family values and human behaviors that they took with them to Guyana, including relationships among members and sexuality and punishments for non-compliance. Ti and Do’s group members did not continue human relationships with anyone back in the world nor with one another when some joined who had such a relationship. (I was one of those who joined with my former partner I had lived with for 5 years and for the first ten years had zero communication with my vehicle’s family back in New York. The only relationships Ti and Do’s student had were as fellow crew members. There was no chit chatting or gossip or shooting the breeze or having best friends or confidants or “familiarity” among certain members (though we still enjoyed one anthers camaraderie and companionship and friendship and personalities and helpfulness (within the behaviors and ways Ti and Do taught that are most synopsized in the lists referred to as the “Seventeen Steps” and the “Major and Lessor Offenses” – that are in the Heaven’s Gate Book and posted on the web site and posted on my blog:

6. The idea that the Jonestown people were forming a utopia on earth was totally absent with the Heaven’s Gate group. According to Ti and Do’s teachings there was no “heaven on earth” in that way, at least not during the current civilization. They did say in the future, if humans showed the Next Level that they had evolved to be civilized – like not choosing to shoot at beings from other worlds, for example then the earth could be made into a Next Level Base aka a Heavenly Body where Members of the Next Level could be seen coming and going but still would not live among humans. They talked about how there were other planets where human equivalent beings were growing in ways totally unlike in the earth’s human kingdom because humans were somewhat unique because of the presence of the Luciferian space alien fallen angels they permitted to become catalysts for the growth of souls. There could be another planet but it would only be equivalent to earth if some human equivalent to Luciferians were also present but they mostly felt there wasn’t another such earth/human equivalent planet. (Some of this can be seen talked about in the Blackhawk tapes and a little in the book UFO Missionaries Extraordinary). For the Blackhawk tapes one can search my Youtube channel named: 3SPM for “Blackhawk” and find three posts of those audios made into videos.

With Ti and Do’s Heaven’s Gate group the idea from the start was that we were all going to exit the earth, always potentially with our bodies but certainly as Souls for those who qualified. I doubt there were any qualifications to join with Jim Jones (but I could be wrong about that, but if there were I’d bet they were human qualification characteristics (humanitarianism) verses Above Human characteristic qualifications), many of which are in the records that came through a number of what became religions.

7. There were no abuses in Ti and Do’s group. There were never any sexual misconduct that I witnessed and none that were reported by the hundreds of followers over the years who dropped out. There was no punishment for not living by the “procedures” (rules) except for being sent out of the group. Some were sent out of the group and a number of those returned in unusual ways as there were only two “recruitment” periods from 1975 to 1976 and from 1993 (via media) and for about 9 months face to face in meetings around the US and Canada in 1994 and then via internet media by the presence of the Heaven’s Gate web site and postings to Usenet groups that one person joined from and was among the 38 who layed down their lives.

(By the way, “recruitment” was nothing like many groups I’ve both read about and experienced, like the Moonies for instance. We never stood on corners to sell flowers or anything else with the hope of drawing people to our meetings with an offer of food and then once there those who came would learn they needed to sit through their presentation before they’d be fed. It’s sort of the model of the Salvation Army. The entire “recruitment” effort was simply putting up posters on storefronts and bulletin boards in New age centers and health food stores and on telephone poles around the town where we planned a public meeting. Sometimes we got some free press and/or radio and/or TV coverage. People would come to the meeting and listen for a short time and take some questions and then were told if anyone wanted more information to stay after in which case sometimes even some who though they might want to join us were faced with details that dissuaded them. Nothing was ever hidden and there were not carrots put before a person’s eyes, so to speak. However, one might think the idea that they were joining with true Representatives from the Kingdom of Heaven could be a carrot but Ti and Do and their Students didn’t need to have more members so had no interest in cajoling anyone.)

8. Plus the way DO and crew laid down their lives was never rehearsed as it was with the Jonestown group. In the Jonestown group they had a number of rehearsals but the members of the community weren’t told they were rehearsals according to one or more survivor reports. People drank the drink that they were told had poison in it and nothing happened to them, so that became a conditioning to the act. DO did ask on several or more occasions each member of the group if they had any reservations about taking their exit into their own hands by drinking the phenobarbital mixture. One such time was when I was still in the group in September of 1994 that included over a dozen new (or returning) members. From that person by person question one new student said they had reservations and left the group the next day. Another who was a former member named Arrody left shortly after that for the same reason I read reported. One can think that too was conditioning but if anything the conditioning was to filter out those who weren’t clearly in favor of taking the action, the same kind of filtering that had occurred by many examples over the 19 years I witnessed that can be seen in this blog post:

I’m not proposing that the Jonestown event as a Luciferian facsimile attempt to discredit Ti and Do’s authenticity meant that the people in the Jonestown event were necessarily casualties or their their souls and/or Spirits were not kept by the Next Level because of their willingness to sacrifice their human lives in this world. I don’t say that without evidence from DO. For instance, after watching the murder of the David Koresh group, the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas I recall DO saying that he wondered if his students would stick to their convictions the way they did, though not condoning those who used violence. To me that meant that some of those could have been seen by the Next Level as doing the best they could do. The point is, even if someone is murdered or kills themselves we don’t know how that Soul or Spirit will be judged by the Next Level. That judgement starts with the way each of us believe and act while living. We judge ourselves and then when it’s all done the Next Level salvages those they deem to still have the capacity to advance towards Next Level membership in a future opportunity. Like DO said as the 3rd Type of individual who would be “saved” from the recycling, they might have never heard of Ti and Do but separated from their worldliness in their own way. Do can be seen speaking of this in his video, “Last Chance to Evacuate Earth Before It’s Recycled” a video that was transcribed and found on my blog:

Here is the article that stimulated this blog post response:

Jonestown and Heaven’s Gate were supposed to be utopias. How did it go so wrong?
When a dream becomes dystopia. By Amos Barshad


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7 Responses to “No Real Comparison of Jonestown suicides with Heaven’s Gate”

  1. carmelita Says:

    Consistent with everything the Idiot Two did and said: even the title of the video is wrong because apparently it wasn’t the “last chance”.

    “Last Chance to Evacuate Earth Before It’s Recycled”

    Wrong again, Do. >bzzzzz<

    • sawyer Says:

      I don’t see at all what was wrong about what he said. If one reads the entire document one would see that DO was saying the Last Chance in human terms had a broad open ended scope in both who could “evacuate” with them and when (though no one can take that for granted – there is an urgency to act right away to appeal to the Next Level).

      And that document wasn’t the only time DO spoke like that. He was operating on his time table that was no longer a human timeframe but was more kin to 1 day in his “time” to 1000 years for humans on earth. Some who would escape the recycling would never even hear of Ti and Do and he was talking to Souls and Spirits operating through their vehicles. The vehicles wouldn’t survive.

      Ti and Do said they don’t have “time” in the Next Level like humans have. They go by events, I recall them saying and I take that to include working with cycles they designed into their “Astronaut Training Program,” “garden” experiments.

    • crlody Says:

      You have no idea what youre talking about Carmelita. We have no idea how long the “Brief window of time” is that Do described in the Final Press Release. No prophetic dates were ever given. The civilization still hasnt been recycled so its quite possible that the the Last Chance is still valid and will be until the civilization is recycled. Maybe everyone on the planet is still being tested and everything is being monitored by the Next Level.

  2. carmelita Says:

    do said that you folks “borrowed” the bodies in the mid-seventies. why didn’t they simply give them back before they left? Were the originals destroyed when they entered?

    is it because to the next level the plants themselves have so little value that they can be annihilated with no regrets at all?

    Do quoted Christ: “you must hate everything of this world in order to enter my father’s kingdom”. Christ never said that you have to hate to get to his father’s kingdom.

    Christ loved children for example. Do abandoned his children.

    How do you square Do’s message of hate with Christ’s message of love?

    • sawyer Says:

      All of us belong to the Next Level. None of us would exist at all, nor would the earth exist without the Level Above Humans efforts to make this a garden for the growing of souls via human kingdom experiences. Next Level members identify as the Soul, not the suit of clothes they wear and it’s the Soul that lives eternally once graduating into Next Level membership.

      I can’t be absolutely sure what Do meant by “borrowed” as I hadn’t heard that term used in the years I was their student, but when I tried to understand it, what I believe I was given to understand was that they did give those human vehicles back just like all of the human vehicles go back to the dust from which they originally came, the elements of the earth – from dust they came and to dust they returned.

      Yes the ones who had Next Level vehicles when they came sacrificed them in some of the crashes in the 1940’s and 1950’s.

      plants have great value to the Next Level as they become the training ground for souls to learn their lessons through but just like the caterpillar body is discarded to make the butterfly body the same is true for these Next Level graduates – the suit becomes waste. The entire system was designed to recycle bodies and they were also capable of being changed enough to where they could be taken by the Next Level onto their spacecrafts and perhaps put in a closet for future usage which is what DO said he did with his Next Level body before he came that might have been the same body he metamorphosed into his Next Level body on completion of his task incarnate in the name “Jesus”.

      yes he did talk about hate in this regard:

      Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

      Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

      hate=3404 miseo mis-eh’-o from a primary misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less:–hate(-ful).

      Note in some bible translations it says, “love less” but that’s not the way miseo is used in many verses where Jesus describes how the jewish leaders “hated” him. They didn’t love him less. They hated him with a passion because he showed them they were the product of the evil one. That’s part of how the truth get’s distorted and dilulted.

      But yes, Jesus’ message was one of love as stated in many ways as the way we would act towards others, even our enemies. But the ultimate love was to be given to our Heavenly Father 100%. While He is incarnate it all goes through him but when he is not incarnate it’s to be applied to others as Jesus instructed before he left:

      Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
      Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
      Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
      Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
      Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

      The love for enemies was:

      Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

      But both were a broader love than phileo which was a friendly love.

      love = 25 agapao ag-ap-ah’-o perhaps from agan (much) (or compare 5689); to love (in a social or moral sense):–(be-)love(-ed). Compare filew – phileo 5368.

      Mllody explained in her exit video that this was not a personal “hate” but hating anything that stood in the way of our giving our all to overcoming of humaness process provided by our Heavenly Father(s), they recognized to date as from Ti and Do.

      There is no evidence that DO abandoned his vehicle’s children. His divorce occurred in 1968 when his son was about 5 and his daughter 1 year old. His son speaking to him in 1972 but he didn’t live with them after the divorce. Actually Ti did abandon her 4 children, though two twins who were autistic and lived in a home were among them and a late teenage daughter named Terri. Ti ended up sending Terri 47 letters and money (at least $650) before Ti’s vehicle died in 1985 though she hadn’t seen her since 1973. So the kids were not abandoned entirely as in both families they had one parent.

      Ti and Do both believed a parent is fully responsible for their children unless they are genuinely called to serve the Kingdom of God which came upon them both suddenly in 1972 that they couldn’t deny. This is the modus operandi of what’s required of Souls returning to incarnate into human vehicles to give their 100% to the Kingdom of God when called, though of course that will not be proof to anyone else necessarily that they were called by the One True God. It is what Jesus taught would occur to some of his disciples so it really should not come as a surprise to a Christian. This is because one is starting to bond with a new Family of Members of the Kingdom of God (the referenced: “hundredfold”):

      Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

      Nothing is easy about any of this. It’s why religions have become the distortion and dilution of the truth, because they became the equivalent of country clubs as the truth became altered but still teachings that adherents get the same promised rewards that become an illusion which thereby makes what’s real look like the illusion. But the Next Level gives each of us the ability to take our next best step towards studentship in their overcoming program. It’s there for the asking and needs to include application of the tasks given which at this time is to be willing to “stand” for everything Ti and Do taught. That will be challenging and the challenge will increase but we can enlist their help to keep up. They know us and they value those who seek to give it their best.

  3. carmelita Says:

    You are misinterpreting Luke 14:26 — the meaning of the Greek word translated “hate” must be examined. In this verse, the original Greek word is miseo, meaning “TO LOVE LESS” (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible).

    Thanks for putting up with us (me!). –C

    • sawyer Says:

      Carmelita, I put the exact Strongs concordance entry in my last comment:

      hate=3404 miseo mis-eh’-o from a primary misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension, to love less:–hate(-ful).

      Note in some bible translations it says, “love less” but that’s not the way miseo is used in many verses where Jesus describes how the jewish leaders “hated” him. They didn’t love him less. They hated him with a passion because he showed them they were the product of the evil one. That’s part of how the truth get’s distorted and diluted.
      This was hard for me to take as well but it doesn’t diminish the other things Jesus said about even “loving one’s enemies” which is another very hard thing to take, which is the same word “agape” for love as the love used towards the Lord, his Older Member, Heavenly Father that he was actually serving as through his incarnation because they were of the same pure Mind (holy spirit).

      “Love Less” I know is used in many translations but it’s watering down what he clearly meant, but it was put in by the Strongs author as an “extension”. What the heck is an “extension”? It’s the authors expansion of what the word really meant.

      The way one can see the best most accurate translation is to look at all the usages of that word, “miseo” like in the one example I gave and replace it with, in this case “love less” and see if it makes sense. I’m not saying it can never mean “love less” but the likelihood in all these cases minute at best. Do any of us think the jewish leaders “loved less” Jesus or did they detest him and literally hate him even to the point of often wanting to stone him to death which is certainly not love less.

      Ti and Do didn’t use scripture to justify what they thought though at times they got added confirmation of things they already both felt they understood.

      This can be proven further by looking at many of Jesus teachings. For instance he said that his disciples would be hated by those they brought His information to and would be killed as well. That again was hate/detest.

      Jesus also said his mother wasn’t his mother anymore. He denied his mother and brothers saying his family were those who were his students now. And he said because of his and other’s belief in the kingdom of his Father in heaven members of their own families would hate/detest them.

      Here is a link to the definitions that also includes Thayers Greek dictionary:

      Here is the list of usage of “hate”:

      AV – hate 41, hateful 1; 42

      Matthew 5:43, 44; 6:24; 24:10. Luke 1:71; 6:22, 27; 14:26; 16:13. John 7:7; 15:18. Romans 7:15. 1 John 3:13. Revelation 2:6, 15; 17:16.

      Matthew 10:22; 24:9. Mark 13:13. Luke 19:14; 21:17. John 15:18, 24, 25; 17:14. Romans 9:13. Ephesians 5:29. Hebrews 1:9.

      Revelation 18:2.

      Revelation 2:6.

      John 3:20; 7:7; 12:25; 15:19, 23, 23. 1 John 2:9, 11; 3:15; 4:20.

      Titus 3:3. Jude 1:23.

      And here are a number of bible translations that are mostly very old ones. I know some modern translations used “love less” but that’s the way distortions occur:

      American Standard Version with Strong’s Concordance Numbers in Hebrew-Greek Translation Bible Search American Standard Version (ASV 1901)

      Luke 14:26 If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
      Red-Letter King James Version with Strong’s Concordance Numbers in Hebrew-Greek Translation Bible Search King James Version

      Read Luke 14:26 in context parallel the James Murdock translation from Aramaic:

      Whoever cometh with me, and doth not hate his father and his mother, and his brethren and his sisters, and his wife and his children, and himself also, a disciple he cannot be of mine.
      James Murdock Aramaic New Testament with Strong’s Concordance Numbers in Hebrew-Greek Translation Bible Search James Murdock Peshitta-Aramaic NT (1852)

      Read Luke 14:26 in context parallel the John Etheridge translation from Aramaic.
      He that cometh to me, and hateth not his father and his mother, and his brothers and his sisters, and his wife and his children, and his own life also, cannot become a disciple to me.

      Westcott-Hort New Testament Greek-English Interlinear with Strong’s Concordance Numbers Translation Bible Search Westcott & Hort Original Greek New Testament (1885/1901)

      Εἴ τις ἔρχεται πρός με καὶ οὐ μισεῖ τὸν πατέρα ἑαυτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ τὴν γυναῖκα καὶ τὰ τέκνα καὶ τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς καὶ τὰς ἀδελφάς, ἔτι τε καὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ἑαυτοῦ, οὐ δύναται εἶναί μου μαθητής.

      New Testament Greek Literal Translation Bible Search W&H Greek New Testament (Literal English, 2009):

      If a-one it-cometh toward to-me and not it-hateth-unto to-the-one to-a-father of-self and to-the-one to-a-mother and to-the-one to-a-woman and to-the-ones to-producees and to-the-ones to-brethrened and to-the-ones to-brethrened, if-to-a-one also and to-the-one to-a-breathing of-self, not it-ableth to-be of-me a-learner.

      Here is a good example from the OT that says not to hate your brother in your heart:

      Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
      Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

      heart= 03824 lebab {lay-bawb’}
      from 03823; TWOT – 1071a; n m
      AV – heart 231, consider + 07760 5, mind 4, understanding 3, misc 9; 252
      1) inner man, mind, will, heart, soul, understanding 1a) inner part, midst 1a1) midst (of things) 1a2) heart (of man) 1a3) soul, heart (of man) 1a4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory 1a5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will) 1a6) conscience 1a7) heart (of moral character) 1a8) as seat of appetites 1a9) as seat of emotions and passions 1a10) as seat of courage

      This shows that it’s not a personal “hate” of someone else unless they are trying to turn our eyes away from their Kingdom and then it is still not their person that we hate – it’s hating the “evil” they have entertained. Both Jesus quoted a number of the psalms and DO enjoyed a few too and even posted one in their HG book, but here are a couple that demonstrate what we should and need to “hate”:

      Psalms 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

      Psalms 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

      Psalms 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

      Psalms 119:113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

      Psalms 119:163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

      Here are some additional references to hate and love:

      Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

      Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

      In this last verse it’s indicating hate is towards one or the other master. In this example the master we must hate is described as “mammon” which translates to “wealth and treasure” and just so happens to relate to the human mammalian kingdom that we must choose between all that represents and all that the Kingdom of God represents.

      Thus if family members are trying to hold us to allegiance to staying in the human kingdom and serving human behaviors and ways and human hierarchies and values, etc. then whether they know it or not they are choosing to be our adversary yet we don’t treat them in some negative way except by detaching from their lives until they might change their trying to manipulate us away from what we want to do in relationship with our walk for the Next Level.

      Jesus said upon his return as the “son of man” (offspring of human) even the “elect” – those who were most prepared to receive and recognize him will be tricked if they let it happen. That trickery then becomes our blessing to learn to see through because of the strength we can gain by “changing our mind” (repentance) to the most current Older Members thinking, behavior and ways (pure Mind).

      This slightly less accurate translations is just such a trick and is part of why many Christians are not taught about what Jesus really said, because it’s just so challenging to consider, few make sermons about most parts, except for the parables and accounts of miracles that DO said were 90% exaggerated. But it was supposed to be challenging because going to heaven was the hardest thing anyone could qualify for and yet it’s all doable in a stepwise way by seeking the truth and putting our total trust in our Heavenly Father to help us with each step.

      DO said about Christians that “they hardly stood a chance” given how much misinformation mind seeds have been sown in the last couple thousand years, but “hardly” does still mean there is a chance.

      When we know the truth then when we have a new opportunity, when our Souls are brought back to have another “born of water (flesh)” experience after being “saved” because we graduated our previous grade in Their school, then as we awaken at whatever point during and/or after the Older Member is also incarnate we stand a great chance of recognizing “him” because he puts into motion the same thinking and acting again in our current distorted culture that becomes seen by those in that culture as a sub-culture or “cult”. Meanwhile the Luciferian fallen angel souls stimulate “facsimili” “cults” filled with behavior and ways that are nothing like the Kingdom of God’s program except in some general ways or that don’t last and eventually show the leaders corruption.

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