Here are some questions comments followed by my responses:
Questions and comments to Sawyer:
Did the group take out alien abduction insurance? I read they did. Also, did Jesus have his testicles removed?
Jesus accepted the horrors that were to come. Do was always worried about the family and Cult Awareness Network and cops — avoiding stuff.
What sort of inspiration would Jesus have been if he and his disciples had taken the easy way out?
You don’t remember what town Do worked in as a janitor for 3 or 4 years to pay for his neutering? Do you remember what state?
Did Jesus abandon his wife and kids? Jesus certainly didn’t abandon his mother whom he loved to the very end.
How could they be the two witnesses and be the second coming of Jesus at the same time?
Ti and Do did “global-wide broadcasts to millions”? Please post links!
“Children” is used literally and figuratively throughout the bible. Jesus used in both contexts — but there is no doubt: he literally loved children — and by children I mean literally “children”. Do abandoned his children.
So, what I’m trying to show you is that Do was nothing like Jesus in any way, shape, or form. To compare the two is a stretch beyond imagination.
You — a believer if you will — find parallels in everything you read. Nobody else sees any parallels at all. Doesn’t that give you a clue to your fantastical thinking?
Jesus didn’t bugger his students. Herf did. Jesus knew exactly what was happening; do and ti didn’t have a clue… they hedged as you say. Jesus performed miracles — Do and Ti didn’t perform one — not one! Jesus was brave, Do lived a scared life. Jesus’ death demonstrated something important to mankind, your group just committed suicide–making Do an eternal punchline to jokes about wild-eyed cult leaders until the end of time itself.
Yes I read they took out alien abduction insurance. I don’t know Do’s thinking on that but here’s what I came up with for whatever it’s worth. It was very like Ti and Do to cover their bets. Do didn’t arrive at the way they completed their task by receiving a detailed list of how every aspect would go. That was never the motus operandi. I believe they packed a bag and had their passports on them in case Ti wanted to take their vehicles, heal them from what they ingested and have them perform a task somewhere else. Since they could get the insurance, if Ti did take them and wanted to stage it so it was witnessed by the world, for instance along the lines of what Christians misthink about the “rapture” being a physical ascension, then the world would witness it and they would have to pay up and that could help those left behind tell their story and even bring more publicity in case their exit was covered up, that is if the Next Level let the humans do so as a part of the greater strategy of providing doubt, which is why the “dropout” – fallen angels, the Luciferians provide because they want to, so again allowing us to choose who to side with.
I’ve seen nothing in scripture that suggested Jesus had his testicles removed. If he did spend time with an original Essene group as some suspect then he could have, but just like he didn’t insist on his disciples being celibate (at least in a publicly acknowledged way that was reported that way), he also didn’t do more than hint in the records that self castration was an option as in:
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
What about the first 3 years of Jesus ministry. How many times did some try to stone him and catch him. If you think he paid no attention to the ways the lower forces were trying to use humans to stop him from completing his task, then I think you haven’t really examined the records with that reality in mind. To some degree Jesus was always on the run though was adept at hiding and perhaps in those days could blend in fairly easily. And to say Do was “always worried about the family” is a huge exaggeration just because he and Ti were always “security minded”. Maybe you are clinging to what a former member who turned against Ti and Do said on one of the documentaries about that. Well he exaggerated a great deal. Let’s face it the biggest criticisms against Ti and Do that came from dropouts was that they had a procedure to shave in a certain direction or didn’t provide enough dentistry (though I did receive a lot of dentistry). But the shaving procedure wasn’t even a static procedure. If he shaved in the direction given, which came about because a student wanted to know how Do shaved because they wanted to become one with everything Do did, and had a problem with doing so, then he could write a note and say, he had this problem and Do would have addressed it in some way. In our notes to Do we had an instruction to not provide solutions to problems we encountered. This way, we wouldn’t be using our mind as we were agreed by being there to abide by what came from Ti and Do’s mind, right down to every nitty gritty seemingly insignificant detail. However, they said there were things they didn’t want us to mimic in that way though they appreciated those that had that desire. This giving of our will to the Older Member was just as Jesus taught as to “deny self” and “give their will to the Father” – specifically to the incarnate Older Member providing the most current lesson criteria.
I never meant to say Do worked as a janitor for 3-4 years. I’m not sure where you got that idea, but perhaps I misspoke. I suspect Rio could better speak to that so one of these days I’ll shoot him an email, though the last time I spoke to him he said he didn’t want to be involved in the Heaven’s gate story any longer as he felt he did all he wanted to do with his book. But I’d be surprised if it was even as long as 3-4 weeks. No I don’t know what state but I suspect either Arizona or New Mexico. I was invited to do the Geraldo Show in the summer of 1997 which was staged in NYC. Before we went on the air, I had some interaction with some of the other guests. It was a show mainly about UFO’s and Allen Shargel (if I recall his name right) was telling me how he met Do and that he was I believe a janitor and he was staying in a motel, I thought in Arizona. But the memory of the conversation is foggy. Shargel if that’s spelled correctly I think is somewhat active in UFO convention circles. He’s an author and had his publicist with him on the Geraldo show and frankly I didn’t believe him though then heard that from another source that Do also left to have the procedure so I then tied that into the Shargel story.
I never saw any evidence that Jesus had a wife or kids. I know that book Holy Blood, Holy Grael seemed to suggest such though after he supposedly staged his crucifixion and went to live in France with Mary Magdalene. I never read the whole book or the other books that make such claims based on tiny shreds of things, ignoring the 99.99% of the record that indicated he did nothing of the sort.
What does that mean “abandon his mother”. You know of course that he was quoted to have indicated that the woman who gave birth to his vehicle was NOT his mother and the sibling of his vehicle was NOT his brother BECAUSE his “mother, brother – Family were now ONLY those that were grafting to their NEW family, a family with a bond in their Minds (Spirits) consisting of those who trusted in, have faith in and thus the true meaning of “belief” in his Father who abide by their teachings:
Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Did he love that human who was the mother of his vehicle? Certainly that is indicated and especially when his vehicle was dying as he demonstrated in suggesting she become the “mother” to his disciple “John”. Wouldn’t that be impossible unless it was saying to care for one another in that way of such a family of believers?
Joh 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Joh 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
The Two Witnesses are described as “anointed” before the Lord of the Earth – in Zech chapter 4 where they are also compared to being Olive Trees and Candlesticks both directly related to the origin of Oil from Olives as the “force” squeezed from the olive and used to generate “light” to provided enlightenment to others. That is the CHRISTING PROCESS that is also the OVERCOMING PROCESS that every student must complete to the satisfaction of the Older Members before they are awarded with a new physical Next Level body and an eternal life. Jesus said upon his return he was not coming in the name of Jesus. Rev 3:12 says he will have a new name and Rev 1 describes him as having a white head and white hair and fire (passion) in his eyes and metal (strong) legs to STAND UP ON, standing up for his Older Member’s Mind. In John’s gospel Jesus says that his Father also loves the students and they would be able to communicate directly with the Father upon his return. He also says in that same part of the record that both he and his Father would “make our abode with you”. Abode was a physical dwelling which also corresponds to his saying he had to prepare a place for them so they could dwell where he dwells in his “house” translated to “mansion” apparently a spacecraft in that context.
He said he would come in such a way that is secret – not to be observed by the eyes and as a “son of man” which is an “offspring of human (mankind)” which is in-carnal – Latin carne = flesh, as a “thief in the night” that if some are “watching” for will not be caught off guard and miss him while those that think themselves first to recognize him will be last to recognize him. That’s largely the Christians. But Last is just as good as first. It’s only not ever recognizing him when we have the chance that is a path to destruction in the lake of fire to come, which is also the end of the spirit world. (For whatever it’s worth, those who believe in Ti and Do, I don’t think believe because they fear death and destruction. They believe because it makes so much darn sense, they can’t deny it and are so attracted to everything Ti and Do say. That doesn’t mean they have come to terms with everything they taught or don’t have doubts, but they are at least willing to come to believe and understand those things rather than let those doubts turn them away from that relationship. I know I may not be speaking for all).
He comes with the clouds, from the clouds, where clouds were always used as a “cover” as humans aren’t allowed to see the Next Level members or their spacecrafts directly unlike the space alien spacecrafts that even pose and show their nuts and bolts primitive construction in comparison. (I suspect that they used some of these primitive spacecrafts for their crash arrival as some of those who are called space aliens were working for the Next Level in what Do called a “domestic” capacity and were given the opportunity to join them in entering the Overcoming of Humanness classroom to move into full adult membership in the Next Level when they would receive a Next Level Vehicle, and those that did choose to enter the program had some of the more primitive crafts).
Jesus said upon his return he would speak plainly about the Father and no longer in parables so no stories but that’s a face to face experience.
It really never was a “second return” of that Older Member from the Next Level Kingdom of God, kingdom in the literal heavens as some Christians even believe it was the same individual who was Adam and Michael the Archangel and Jesus. Ti said Do served as Adam, Enoch, Moses, Elijah and Jesus. That makes the return as the Two Witnesses the sixth coming and Do as seen through the remaining 6 of 7 “thunders/roars” of Rev 10 the seventh coming.
However, where the second coming is correct is in two senses. In 1987 Do told us we had to all be who we were, in other words the return of the same Souls who were Jesus and his disciples incarnate then, incarnate now as Jesus said would happen. So that began the second public offering of Ti and Do’s information starting with the “88 update” Do wrote to set the record straight as to Ti and Do’s beginning as the Two Witnesses followed in 1992-3 with the Beyond human Series that was Do, but still not saying he was the specific Soul returning though we knew he was. These were the 7 thunders (roars) of Rev 10 in progress still a part of the 6th trumpet sounding that ended with “UNDERCOVER “JESUS” SURFACES BEFORE DEPARTURE” which was just an internet usenet post that proved to them that part of the task was just about over followed by the 7th roar of the Heaven’s Gate web site and book and their exit.
But the second part of the way in which it was a “second coming” is yet to occur and is described in Rev 19 after the “marriage” of the remaining students who give their lives, this second phase by spreading the words of Ti and Do in what is depicted as the “winepress” of Rev 14. They don’t lay down their lives in the same way as the first fruits did with their Older Member physically present to guide them through, as it’s not reversible which needs to be according to day to day instruction to make sure all students are doing so fully voluntary as evidenced by Rio’s dropping out two weeks before they exited. He wasn’t ready.
But there were still more to be married to Do though their test was whether they would also give their lives but by disseminating the information that will build to hatred against them as more and more come to believe in Ti and Do and parents, etc. of those who choose to believe look to those who continued to share the info as responsible so seek them out to stop them. (It may happen in another way as many who are seen as dissident will be subject to the unrest that is building to where the government “bestial” humans and loyalists think they are doing the right thing to rid society of all dissidents and especially those who don’t agree with their atheistic and/or religious ideas that is what many Christians actually become though they still use the name of Jesus as their savior. In practice they justify getting rid of dissidents the same way it was done to Jesus and his disciples by the Jews and associated state operatives who many times are in bed together.
So in Rev 19 it shows the 24 returning after having “fell down and worked for (worshipped) the Next Level (God)” on white horses, in this case not their physical vehicles but their spacecrafts. (Ti and Do called our cars horses). These have new physical vehicles described as his army on “white horses” while they are “arrayed/clothed in fine linen, clean and white” which is both the fact that they are “pure” and actually literally “white”. They are following the one who is “clothed with a vesture dipped in blood” which I suspect is the same physical body Jesus changed over into his Next Level “glorified” body that he demonstrated was physical and took with him into that spacecraft behind the cloud cover that was witnessed by at least the 11 apostles.
I don’t know if there will be some way the people on earth at that time will be able to literally see his face but I suspect some might from other prophecy as this will cause the end as the 6th seal that sets into motion the recycling to where the New world order is shattered and the U.S. is literally broken up and the “books of judgement” are opened and whoever is not in the book is recycled. This is followed by a rest time and a 1000 years, half an age before the Luciferians are recycled. It is at that point that the Next Level’s spacecraft “holy city” the New Jerusalem and new heaven and new earth is physically with those who have been abiding by all the Next Level taught, possibility describing the next “classroom” as when the Luciferians are surrounding their “camp” the Next Level dintergrates them – throwing them into the Lake of Fire, however that is literally accomplished.
So Christians will get the return in the clouds but Do didn’t think they would be seeing his scars, etc. if they are even still on that vehicle anymore.
There is a lot more I can say about this but this is the jist for whatever it’s worth and I sure there is still more to see, so I can certainly be wrong about some of this, but I do feel at this time, this interpretation works for now.
Also, overcoming is ongoing. Just because one refrains from sex for years doesn’t mean there are no hormones in one’s system to stimulate the past habits of thought and action. One can grow to see the “influences” toward sexuality coming and even cut them off before they become full thoughts in one’s head. You kind of develop a radar, Ti talked about as something she could “smell” though I don’t know how literal that is, except it is well known that pheromones are smelled by animals, as humans whether we are aware of them or not. I have experienced this and degrees of it, like seeing something that could stimulate arousal and cutting off associated thoughts before they register completely like mid sentence. And I have experienced not letting the thought register as a sentence at all and plenty times I did let the thought register and saw how I could literally feel it stimulating a glandular response that would eventually cause a build up until it seeks to be released in a nocturnal emission or via masturbation or having sex with someone. In the group these resulted in nocturnal emissions that we did have a procedure to deal with and didn’t include feeling guilty about. If we didn’t do anything to stimulate it, then Ti and Do considered it like an “energy” being released “off the top” as in a pressure valve. So one can get so experienced and able to cut off thoughts or smell them that they no longer pose a threat to the behavior they want to maintain. But that doesn’t mean one would drop their shields, what Ti and Do called putting up the “blank card” in our mind and not engaging circumstances where they would be tested. They taught that as long as you are in the human kingdom you are subject to bouts with such human behaviors and ways though they can cease to cause you to give into them, that is unless you let it happen. Even though Do’s vehicle before he was awakened had become attracted by both genders, in the 1990’s he told us that when he sees a woman’s breast on a movie it solicits no more or less response than seeing a “grapefruit”. However, in the 1990’s he also told me that part of the reason his “helpers” mostly had female vehicles (Lvvody and Jnnody and sometimes Jwnody) was because he found he wasn’t quite as objective with some of the students who had male vehicles and/or wanted to remain diligent in his guard. I think it had a lot to do also with the degree of amour of the student, male or female. Lggody, a student in a male vehicle, when I was his partner told me he didn’t have any problem with sensuality. He ended up being the most consistent student helper in an male vehicle for both Ti and Do and of Do after Ti left her vehicle.
Search on these keywords to find the links to the way in which Ti and Do’s information has been spread to millions, as I never compiled them all but suppose I should sometime:
New York Times front page of the magazine section, international edition – 1976 – Phelan was the writer. Look up the circulation!
CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC both in 1975 and 1997 – as the UFO Cult and Heaven’s Gate
USA Today 1/3 of a page info-ad, international and national editions – May 27, 1993 – Circulation?
44 ads in alternative newpapers published in most every big city in the U.S. and Canada, England, Scotland, Austrailia and New Zealand.
Internet usenet postings in 1996
Heaven’s Gate web site, still receives hits
Documentaries – At least 4 I was in.
CBS 60 minutes – that I was in on Easter sunday 1997 that was I was present in the shooting of, Saturday, the day before.
Larry King Live that I was in from a studio in NYC as it was broadcast from Atlanta.
Geraldo Show that I was in that was shot in NYC.
Newspaper articles in many western NY cities during the 1994 public meeting tour that I was involved with.
9 months of public meetings with one every two weeks times four or five groups in 1994, meeting list is in the purple book.
9 months of public meetings in 1975-6 by 5 or so groups all over U.S. and Canada also listed in purple book.
Movie, the Mysterious Two – made for TV movie that was terrible and not at all accurate. I don’t know if the flute player was me as I did join with a flute that I never played again and sold to buy a car with.
Several Articles in Time, Newsweek and psychology today both in 1975-6-7-8 and 1997.
People magazine in 1997 with Rio on the cover.
National Geographics Channel 2008 – Final Report: Heaven’s Gate which I say is the beginning of the 7th angels trumpet – circulation in millions perhaps?
Many Radio and some local TV station coverage both in 1975-6 and 1997 that I was apart of some of. I did a TV spot in Dallas, Tucson at a public access station and the local CBS affiliate there.
Chapters in Books are still being written. I’ve helped no less than four authors with material.
Book: UFO Missionaries Extraordinary – still in circulation – published by Brad Steiger famous sci fi writer and Hayden Hewes – UFOlogist in 1976
Beyond Human video series broadcast on Satelitte in 1993 and has been on youtube for years now along with the exit videos on channel: heavensgatedatabase that I don’t know who maintains.
Most every year some media does an article on them
Blog posts galore by critics in 1997
– Jesus speaking of children was almost entirely referring to his students as children as in:
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
The other primary use of children was referring to those who forsook their children for the kingdom of Heaven’s sake which is what Ti and Do and some others did and it wasn’t abandonment of care of them as in every case another parent took care of the children so they were not without love and support:
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Here is the only time I am aware of his having direct contact and interactions with children and he used them as an example of what we must become which goes together the many times he compared disciples as his children:
Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
So you have shown me again how Do is exactly like Jesus with updated terminology and a more advanced lesson plan for the graduates just like Jesus provided an updated lesson plan from what was provided when he was incarnate in the vehicle named Moses.
Point out please how I have stretched the imagination?
There are others that see the parallel – you just don’t know them I suppose but I do know some and that number keeps growing because the truth can not be held down when the Next Level wants it exposed.
Finding parallels have come to me gradually and you are right I do see them in most all of Jesus quotations and throughout Jesus prophecy, but wouldn’t that be the case if Do was his return. Wouldn’t all the parallels be apparent but only for those who have the eyes to see as he said, those who have his light in their lamps at least enough so that upon his arrival they don’t miss him?
I agree it is fantastical thinking but all information from the Next Level is fantastical thinking in my opinion and it affects me that way and for those that fear the truth it seems like fanciful thinking or disturbing thinking or something of that nature. The children of the kingdom that choose to be the children of the kingdom recognize his voice and can’t deny it. Anyone can ask for that recognition if they want to put it to the test but you must do as Jesus suggested and talk to the Father in the literal heavens with our request to know the truth and then be prepared to drop all our preconceived ideas that discount it. Those thoughts won’t go away but by choosing to override them builds strength and we can also ask for that strength from the Father in the heavens.
I don’t know what “bugger his students means” so I can’t address what you said Herf did or didn’t do. Please provide one example of how Herf “buggered his students”?
You said “do and ti didn’t have a clue [what was happening]” another vague accusation. Have you studied any of this history? Were you with them at all? Did you talk to anyone who was? If you are referring to the way they changed their perspective and to the few times they thought something MIGHT happen and didn’t in the way they thought it might, then you are missing their modus operandi which was to follow their instructions regardless of whether they came out in the way they thought the MIGHT and how by doing that, the filtered out those that were not engaged with them for the most right reasons so would not be able to make it through the entire lesson step to graduation. I’m not making this up. I and at least 23 other students with them from the beginning weren’t phased at all by the changes they made and the appointments to exit they felt might happen that they were instructed to treat as if they could. And there is no evidence we 24+ were brainwashed in the way humans think of that term that even Professor Robert Balch, the psychological authority on the group that most look to saw evidence of.
But did Jesus say upon his return he would perform miracles? To the contrary he said it would be the false christs and false teachers that would be showing “signs and wonders” to fool even the elect. What he said was upon his return he would speak “plainly” and “boldly” about his Father and their Kingdom and that his disciples would be able to ask the Father in person questions.
My book documents all of this and lots more by many direct pieces of contextual documentation. Stay tuned to have access to it.
I don’t deny that Jesus was brave but to insinuate Do was not is just not aware of reality. Read 88 Update and you will see examples of bravery in leaving their world behind, having to deal with feeling crazy, even every day, not liking the idea of telling others they were the Two Witnesses knowing how that was seen a blasphemous for the religious to hear what they would say.
In fact at the meeting where I met them in Waldport, OR a woman from the back of the room yelled real loud, “you ought to be shot” right after they said that you couldn’t join with them and bring children. When you are called a dangerous cult leader compared to charles manson and later Jim Jones, do you think it’s a sign of a coward to stand up to that and keep on keeping on. Do you know how many parents hated them? Do you think they relished the idea of being killed, yet knew they must continue. When the FBI showed up at the first oklahoma city meeting thinking their group (cult) might have been responsible for cattle mutilations was it cowardice to out the back door or smarts knowing they have the power to stop their task even on a whim?
Where is the evidence that Do lived a scared life? You keep saying that but you have no evidence. It’s just your opinion and that’s fine to have if that’s what you want to cling to. Have you asked your Heavenly Father for the truth about Ti and Do. Don’t answer that for me – it’s none of my business to know the answer but if you haven’t and didn’t do so really wanting to know the truth, how can you feel qualified to leverage all these shallow arguments against them? They are shallow because none have any evidence that holds up to the truth as I have tried to provide you. Repentance really means to “change ones mind” – a literal changing of the way we thought before, though includes actions as well.
Do you think Jesus wasn’t made the brunt of jokes. what do you think that crown of thorns was and the purple robe and the king of the jews sign and the artificial bowing and scraping the guards were recorded to have done. If they did that how much more was that done in the Roman theaters and parties potentially as I don’t know the evidence of it but I’d bet there was plenty of it. Most thought he was a nut.
Why is it if someone has intensity in their eyes that’s considered “wild”. Wasn’t that also in scripture that he would:
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
“Eyes were as a flame of fire” sounds pretty intense and “wild” to use your word. And to boot, he has white like wool hair as Do had upon going public in his vehicle’s mid 40’s and a white head and these are compared to things with color so at this point are not talking about light or purity.
Many Christians understandably have a Hollywood and/or religisized view of Jesus. That’s why it’s hard to get past that and I don’t fault those for it. A better understanding was not available until Ti and Do came along and shed new light on the entire subject and even still we are all in grades in this great school on earth so all are not going to be ready to graduate at the same time. I flunked out of the graduate course but that doesn’t mean there aren’t second chances for any of us. I know it’s troubling to consider what is being shown. I can talk to how troubling it was for me to come back into the amount of belief and faith I do have now. They helped me a great deal to come back into their Mind’s awareness and there is still plenty of room to grow more in that awareness, behavior and ways.
The battle you are going through is what it takes to deal with to climb up another notch out of the human kingdom’s sea of confusion but you are not alone but must ask to get their help.
I know Do and Ti and I know they are every bit worthy of who they say they are – Older Members from the Level Above Human, Kingdom of God, Kingdom in the literal heavens. You can know that just as much if you allow it to happen by surrendering to your Heavenly Father who is in the literal heavens.