Jesus talks about laying his life down for his Father and for his “Sheep”

DO and Crew wrote a document that is still posted on the heavensgate.com website that is entitled, “Our Position Against Suicide”. It and another document in the Heaven’s Gate Book posted on that same website, entitled, “Evolutionary Rights for Victims” states; “In contrast, human suicide (identifying as the body and trying to “end it all” for the purpose of avoiding the growth pains of lessons) gets you nowhere.”

We can only get lesson we need by having a human vehicle. Our vehicle is our gift for growth of the Soul. It’s the only way we can grow our Next Level Mind – buy overcoming all the challenges we face in the human kingdom and making a positive out of each of the negatives.

Members of TI and DO’s Class were no longer human. They still had human vehicles but their Minds had grown to have sufficiently overcome enough of their humanness so that TI and DO gave them the choice over years time to choose to stay or leave the way they did. DO said they weren’t doing anything wrong if they wanted to stay. (This is on one of the many audio tapes they left behind).

So now to the basis of this post…

In response to anyone who thinks that the idea of giving one’s life is not something Jesus would do, said by people who disqualify DO and TI as the return of the Older Member Soul in the vehicle named Jesus and his Older Member then referred to as his Father in the outer space heavens, on board a spacecraft, because of their chosen method of exiting their vehicles on their own terms, in time and place and method, I compiled some of the evidence that, based on these records, they are misinformed.

Below are some of the sayings of Jesus that pertain to his and some of his disciples choosing to perform tasks for the Kingdom of Heaven that they know will result in their losing the life of their physical body but know it won’t destroy their Soul:

Here Jesus says he was going to “lay down my life” for his sheep (students) given him by the Father.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

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Then he says his Father loves him because “I lay down my life” knowing he would take it up again.

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

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Then he says, No human (man) takes it [his life of his body] from him. In other words humans didn’t take his life from him.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

He gave it. He layed it down, in other words turned the other cheek, allowed them to capture him knowing he would die by his own choice and also knowing it was his right to do so because it was a commandment (instruction) given to him by his Father.

Where many Christian teachers and others can get confused is by thinking that Jesus had or wanted to give his life so they wouldn’t have to. Yet he also said if one loves him they will seek to abide by all his instructions (TI and DO’s word for the qualifications).

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This shows that Peter was willing to also lay down his life for him:

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

But Jesus knows when put to the test he would not do so at that time and to be honest don’t think Jesus wanted him to also loose his vehicles life then as he had tasks he needed to perform before exiting.

John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

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Here Jesus shows the qualification to abide in his love is to “keep my commandments” and gives the commandment to you love one another as (in the way) I have loved you.

Then he says that there is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for another.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

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Then John shows that he believed in following Jesus example of laying down their lives for others:

1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

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Next this idea of voluntarily laying down one’s human life for another is shown in a different context and done using metaphores in the Book of Revelation:

Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down* before him that sat on the throne, and worship* him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast* their crowns before the throne, saying,

• The phrase “fall down” comes from this greek word:

4098 pipto {pip’-to}
a reduplicated and contracted form of peto {pet’-o}, (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses), probably akin to 4072 through the idea of alighting; TDNT – 6:161,846; v
AV – fall 69, fall down 19, light 1, fail 1; 90
1) to descend from a higher place to a lower

It’s of particular interest in the translation of this word usage to “alighting” or “light” as if to say these 4 and 20 elders brought their “light” of their Minds from a higher place (The Next Level spacecraft) to the human kingdom (a lower place) and…

** “before (in the presence of) him that sat on the throne” which would seem to refer to the Older Member we know as DO who was in the vehicle named Jesus…

*** and worship which DO said meant, “to work for”

**** “…him that liveth for ever and ever” which would seem to be referring to Jesus/DO’s Older Member The Father/TI…

* “cast their crowns before the throne”

casting = 906 ballo {bal’-lo}
a primary word; TDNT – 1:526,91; v
AV – cast 86, put 13, thrust 5, cast out 4, lay 3, lie 2, misc 12; 125
1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls 1a) to scatter, to throw, cast into 1b) to give over to one’s care uncertain about the result 1c) of fluids 1c1) to pour, pour into of rivers 1c2) to pour out 2) to put into, insert

These 4 and 20 elders have crowns already and they are casting those crowns in the presence (before) DO who is on the Throne task (given to him by his completion of the task in the vehicle named Jesus and then about to be on that throne for the completion of the task as shown in Revelation 12 via his Older Member, The Father, aka TI who births him to the throne task.

This to me sounds like their “crowns” represent the new physical vehicles they received when they completed the Jesus phase of the task and they were choosing to discard those more elementary vehicles to gain strength and deposit thoughts (light) from the Next Level Mind, it seems seen in some of the so called ufo crashes like Roswell and Aztec, etc.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Here it shows the four beasts (zoon=Living Beings) and the 4 and 20 elders fell down before the lamb, which seems to mean they layed down their lives for the one who was in the body named Jesus. The “harp” in this context is the physical vehicle they took over from the human kingdom 2000 or so years ago and their “song” is the lesson plan given to them by the Older Member then called Jesus.

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

This next verse seems to refer to what the four and twenty elders did before they ascended to where “fell upon their faces” in this context has multiple meanings of laying down their vehicle’s life:

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

TI and DO’s Next Level Above Human Exhibit Being The Only True Creators of The Earth and the Creatures on It. Space Aliens are the Fertilizer that Restarted the Current Human Kingdom Civilization!

Here is the start of a type of critique of a post on a youtube channel I found interesting to hear and comment on that was entitled:

Ancient Documents Reveal ALIENS created Humans & The Pyramids! ?? Billy Carson Interview
Produced by True Geordie who has 2.04M subscribers able to be seen via the URL:
https://youtu.be/Cxhf0WbHTUQ?si=i8SjaC4-3z7xATB6

Sawyers Responses:

There is a huge difference between the kind of “creating” space aliens have instigated (by mating with humans and/or by using test tube baby development on their spacecrafts and/or in underground bases (Antarctica, North Pole?) and/or by abducting humans to fertilize them with their sperm and/or sperm they have in sperm banks and/or extract from their abductees to fertilize eggs they stole from abductees, etc.) and those who are literally evolutionarily (not Darwinian) as further advanced above these human equivalent space aliens and humans, as humans are evolutionarily speaking above animals and animals above plants and plants above minerals.

The only true Creators have the scientific know how to literally and in attention to great detail grow all these creatures and aren’t limited to the genetic pools of any planets they also designed and developed.

In history these true Creators have been termed The Only True Gods while the space aliens were at most fallen offspring (sons) of the Older Member True Gods.

The religions have only clues to the nature of these True Gods and even their records are sparse and confused as in various mythologies and there are huge gaps wrought with misinformation in this regard. For instance if space aliens need to harvest eggs and sperm from humans and/or human equivalents, where/how/when did those systems themselves come from? Is it at all logical that those systems developed themselves? Some would argue they did develop themselves but that’s only backed up by the ways those very systems of life are fluid and adaptable which is the nature of the Living Beings who developed those systems that they themselves are always improving upon.

There is tremendous evidence that those systems display countless intelligent design to even evolve physically but also evolve mentally. To some it is common sense that Living Beings, way above (in all ways) the space aliens and humans Created through fully scientific methods the very planet earth and all it’s lifeforms and that’s why some were able to recognize those who were called TI and DO, the Two Teachers who came public in the 1970’s and have departed with their Crew of Students by 1997 seen in the media as the Heaven’s Gate “Cult”.

TI and DO taught that a Soul is actually a physical plasma like container and that what we thought was etheric and described in many ways throughout history as Spirits are more accurately described as Minds that upon leaving the human body they developed within became disincarnate (deceased humans) aka ghosts that also have a plasma like physicality that are like databases outside of a dense physical container we refer to as our human bodies that are simply plants with a “wireless” root system.

These ideas are just a few of the sideline teachings of those who were called TI and DO who much of the world have demonized but in so many ways were decades or even centuries ahead of their time and were not at all religious but understood the religions as the result of the space aliens trying to discredit their teachings to humans so humans would not be able to tell the difference between their people from their physical evolutionary Kingdom Level Above Human and the human equivalent space aliens.

In this noted youtube channel interview, I like it when the interviewee, Billy Carson clarifies what he got from various documentation and what was his hypothesis. When he starts talking about what humans consider to be long time periods, it’s really not that useful towards understanding reality better except in view of the way primitive thinking humans think there was no civilizations before the current one as some relgionists are blind to recognizing. I respect Billy Carson talking about the time frames being ancient though to help wean some from that limited thinking in these regards as I said but those time frames are elementary in their seeming huge numbers because there have likely existed many civilizations on earth and earth is by far not the only planet that has equivalent to humans growing on it.

But TI and DO brought clarity that described humans as singled out from other homo sapien styled dense physical bodies Their Next Level Above Human Kingdom create, aka design, grow, and develop and recycle periodically.

As to who seeded the earth, like I began to address above, it could have been accomplished by human like people from other planets but even if that were the case on earth to some degree, it was still under the direction of the Evolutionary Level Above Human Beings, even directly by TI, The Next Level Older Member who is like an Admiral in the Next Level Above Human Kingdom with “her” Captain, DO. (“her” is used because that Older Member Soul left her Next Level designed dense physical body behind in order to perform the task of being hands on in the completion of what is actually Their Astronaut Training Program on earth that TI is the Chief Administrator of).

But that seeding however it was accomplished was not at all the result of space aliens, who left their dying planet to find a new planet to live on as Billy Carson tends to piece together, though the Next Level Above Human Crew certainly would have taken advantage of the space aliens choice to find another planet to live on, but to provide a type of fertilizer for the growth of Souls, though did result in a corrupting of the genetic code, mental and physical but provided a free will training ground for upcoming Soul development.

For instance the Next Level could have opened up a highway (black hole, worm hole) so some from another planet could cross enormous linear distances in a very short time. In that case those traveling from a distant star system wouldn’t have to themselves live much longer than humans to accomplish.

It was TI and DO that were talking about “highways in the heavens” in 1975 because I was with them for 19 years and am known as Sawyer in documentaries about them and what became known as the Heaven’s Gate group. I remember DO talking about how the Next Level Older Members “drew” people from other planets to come to this earth vicinity to have the choice to enter into a new Astronaut Training Program on earth or not. Those that did not choose to enter the program became limited to earth and became that fertilizer (my word) to accelerate the growth of those who chose to enter the program. In other words once these space travelers got to the earth system they couldn’t just travel away from earth very far.

The Next Level started that Program because of the ones who were in a previous astronaut training program on earth and/or elsewhere and had graduated into elementary service in the Next Level but then dropped out of the program when they repeatedly went against their Older Member’s (Admiral and/or Captain’s) guidance and instructions.

These who went against the Next Level became documented in the current civilization as the “fallen angels” and among them one was named Lucifer, a beautiful name as “light bearer” who led the rebellion against the Next Level. As a result of their choices the Next Level decided to make a positive from their choices and started an experiment on earth to see if some who even came from other planets would choose to enter into the training program that included losing their human or human equivalent bodies so that their Soul bodies could find human vehicles (bodies) they had picked to enter the training program with and that is some of what we saw in the many so called UFO crashes in the 1940’s, 1950’s (and perhaps in the 1960’s) whose Souls were later seen as TI and DO’s Students who graduated by being in the Program for over 20 years, mostly, and then choosing to leave behind their human bodies in 1997 because that was the return method given to them by the Older Members in the Next Level, TI and DO.

Whenever someone says what is not possible, they are either slipping or they are simply not aware of what’s possible in that regard. I am impressed with Billy Carson’s research but that doesn’t mean all he thinks and/or his interpretation of his observations are correct. For instance why can’t it be possible for two people to mate and produce offspring that continue to mate and over thousands of years grow in numbers into the billions.

I’d also like to see his basis for the translation of the word, “Genesis” to something to the affect of “generate or genetic Isis, if that’s what he said. I believe in Hebrew it simply means the Beginning but yes it does proceed as a description of generations of human being development.

Now I’m not saying the story of Isis isn’t somewhat depicting genetic engineering or some form of artificial insemination as in general these human equivalent (evolutionarily speaking) space aliens do understand that technology and may have helped humans learn that technology, whether in a previous civilization on earth and/or among themselves from whatever planet they came from (speaking of Souls, not necessarily the dense physical bodies they have hybridized and grown to control (the same way humans do)), but it doesn’t make sense that Isis is like the mother of mankind except in the way humans are actually a type of corrupted genetic code, according to what the Next Level designs to be evolutionarily bodies/vehicles that could become the hosts for future members of the Next Level. I base what I say on some of TI and DO’s teachings.

When I say humans are a corruption, so in that sense a product of the Space Aliens Influence, humans came about as a result of choices made, according to the records, by Adam and then Eve. TI, DO’s Older Member said that Adam was the same Older Member Soul who was given the task of being tested by being subject to the Space Alien’s Influence, who later performed the tasks of Enoch, Moses, Elijah, Jesus and finally as DO. TI and DO wrote that Adams dense physical body was a Next Level Above Human grown body. The Bodies the Next Level grows for it’s membership are not mammalian nor reptilian and don’t reproduce, but when Adam broke procedures and gave in to the influence of whatever space aliens were allowed to influence him, he started a reverse metamorphosis of his physical Next Level grown body, that took place quickly and resulted in Adam and Eve acting like mammals in reproducing and thus becoming the first humans (not the first homo sapiens).

Thereafter they needed to experience working their way back into Next Level non-mammalian behaviors and ways that the Older Members of the Next Level Above Human knew would require many generations. So reproductive activity is one of the biggest forms of corruption because Members of the Next Level have outgrown that animal like condition. It’s never been a moral issue. It’s about the simple reality that to become a Member of the Next Level aka Kingdom in the literal outer space “heavens” one would not have the desire for that behavior and that growth needs to take place by having a human vehicle (body) to choose to abort signals to continue that behavior. Part of that process as applied to the entire current civilization has been recorded in the “commandments” – the requirements as set forth by Moses as a grade school like lesson plan that even today many humans choose to ignore (for instance thinking there is any justified reason for a human to kill or facilitate or vote for and/or support the killing of other humans. There are always other more evolved ways of dealing with people who become ill with violent behavior and ways).

Sawyer’s Critique of Ben Zeller’s Reddit Q and A

The following is from a Q and A Ben Zeller gave on Reddit.com under the account name of Heavensgate
by Noah_J_Simm that Sawyer critiques and responds to comments

I. DR BENJAMIN ZELLER AMA – ANSWERS

Noah_J_Simm:

The moment alot of us have been waiting for, Dr Benjamin Zeller has submitted his answers from the AMA a few weeks ago! This will be a mega post will everyone’s question that was submitted along with his response. I once again would like to thank Ben for working us into his busy schedule enough to make this happen.

strawberry_margarita:

I would just ask him to tell us something that hasn’t already been said. Even if it’s something small or trivial, or an anecdote.

Ben Zeller:

A few times a year I receive emails or phone calls from people who hear one of my interviews about Heaven’s Gate and it jogs their memory about something they experienced. I just spoke a few weeks ago with someone who met members of the group in Fall 1975 in New Mexico, and shared his experience. That was the time when Bo and Peep were not traveling with the group, but this gentleman (who was a traveling hippie musician back then) met several of the members. The group really was disorganized. People were looking for the Two, no one knew where there were. He told me about how one member had spiritually intuited that they saw the Two pass by on the highway, which led everyone else to get even more excited and hopeful for their arrival. The members all piled in a car and drove around looking for the Two. He described not just confusion (which I knew) but a sort of exciting sense of mystery. That makes sense. People like to feel like they are part of something big.

He left after a few days, so didn’t know if the people he met ever found the Two. But I strongly suspect they did. Based on what he said, I believe he met Wndody and possibly Lggody as well.

Sawyer:

First I want to address this idea that the group initially was “disorganized”. My first hand experience doesn’t support that at all. In fact I can show it was thoroughly organized especially considering it was spontaneously generated starting in April of 1975 and considering TI and DO, then becoming BO and Peep had no desire to even have students until a couple dozen asked if they could follow them after the private meetings at Joan Culpeppers house in North Hollywood.

But before I tell some of that story again, which I believe most of which I wrote about in my blogpost on sawyerhg.wordpress.com under the title “sawyer’s story,” I will refer to what this person who barely was part of the group experienced. When TI and DO split us up in Chicago because our numbers had grown too big to try to hide in camping areas, also considering that the national news had broke calling TI and DO felons who they thought could have been abducting people with this strange promise of a ride on a UFO. Some family members were afraid they would all be led to suicide then, even though it was hardly a concern. That is evidenced in the book UFO Missionaries Extraordinary. Plus the group had been infiltrated by Rob Balch and David Taylor who simply wanted to write their university thesis on the group. If TI and DO were to take on students they had even the contrary desire of keepings complete non believers in what they were saying out of the group as all they could do was cause unnecessary trouble. After all, the FBI was already looking to question TI and DO, telling some of the 6 students who were traveling with TI and DO they wanted to question them to see if our group had some link to the huge rash of cattle mutilations that had been happening at that time that was documented by Linda Howe in the book she later wrote.

Even from the start TI and DO didn’t hold all the meetings. In Stanford around August of 1975 those 6 students gave the meeting and TI and DO shortly after held two back to back meetings at Canada College. There were about 6 meetings in the Colorado meeting, mostly given by students and then the serious from those meetings were allowed to attend a meeting at Arapahoe Community College that TI and DO spoke at. I was there. Then they planned on doing the same type of program in Chicago but like I said the news broke and they were really on the run though they did nothing wrong at all.

So when we continued to hold meetings to include in Sante Fe, NM in early October of 1975 and then at Prescott, AZ, the groups were very well organized with a group coordinator assigned by TI and DO and a system of leaving and retrieving messages through Holiday Inn’s, that largely consisted of leaving a pay phone number and time and day to be at a pay phone that could receive calls for the group coordinators to get instructions and reports about each of the 5 or so groups in circulation then. It was an exquisit communication system and would work for the next 8 months while the group grew and shrunk holding meetings all over the U.S. until TI and DO called it quits and instructed the groups to finish what they had already set up. The group I had been reassigned to did our last meeting in Fayatteville, AR around June of 1976, which by the way was, depending on how one counts the start date very close if not exactly the 1260 days of Prophecy by the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11. Niether TI nor DO would ever give another public meeting after that. In 1994 all the meetings were completely done with student speakers, which included me.

So what happened to people who joined in 1975-1976 from a meeting that TI and DO didn’t speak at. Well I don’t know exactly as I was not a group coordinator. However I was camping on Mt. Diablo in California with the group TI and DO assigned me to be with in early November of 1975 and there were some new potential students there and I don’t know if TI and DO ever showed up there because after a handful of days camping there after the Berkley meeting that Jwnody spoke at I chose on my own to travel to the east coast. Jnnody was at that campground as well with the group she had been assigned group coordinator of. However, before I left for the Boston area where I met others in my group and some of the new potential students who had also traveled there, I spent a number of nights around a campfire with potential new students asking me and others that had been with TI and DO questions. And among them were certain ones who were agitated, some who were strictly curiosity seekers or new agers who wanted to catch a ride on a UFO which a true seeker wouldn’t have cared about, knowing that the UFO was at best transportation. If one was going to college would they make a big deal about the bus they were going to take to college. That may seem absurd but the fact is, this was just that real to me and others. Any that didn’t want to tow the very difficult line of outgrowing any desire to remain in the human condition soon dropped out of even minimal studentship. I have direct experience with two that may have been in that category, one of which was a troublemaker who was in Boston giving Jnnody and myself and others who were taking the brunt of the responsabilities for holding the Worchester, MA meeting trouble. He didn’t like any of the agreements we were making on how to poster the Boston area. At one point I got angry at him and told him to leave if wasn’t going to add to our efforts instead of competing with us. The name he used at the time was Lightborn and I don’t know what became of him but he remained difficult for the entire time I was with him in the group we had become that was not in touch with TI and DO, though I suspect Jnnody was. So sure, for some it was disorganized and confusing but hey, that’s the human kingdom and especially in the start of this group, we were bombarded by negativity galore and that continues to today.

Sawyer:

Where Ben Says, “He described not just confusion (which I knew) but a sort of exciting sense of mystery. That makes sense. People like to feel like they are part of something big.”

I bet I could poll anyone that joined with TI and DO and wouldn’t find any of them joining to feel like they are part of something big. I know that was the futherest thing on my mind. Even ask individuals who have come to believe in TI and DO’s teachings since 1997. My partner Cathy tells the story of seeing the story on the news and thinking it was kind of insane, what they did but then something about it caused her to wonder what all those people were doing over 20 years, what did they believe and what were they doing the whole time. So she heard about the Beyond Human video tapes on the heavensgatedatabase youtube channel and started watching them and felt like she believed everything DO was saying though she knew she didn’t understand it all. I think Alexander expressed the same kind of viewpoint when he was on our livestream the other day. When I joined I could have cared less to be a part of anything let alone “something” as if we were like Hillary Clinton who said in her book, on the back cover, “I just wanted to run something”. When I read that, it made no sense to me, “run something” – that sounds like an ego trip to me. Being apart of something (anything?) big sounds similar to that as if the person has nothing in their life so they will latch onto “something” when given the chance. I’m expressing this because what Ben said here as well as confirming this person’s sense of there being “confusion” in the group does seem to be echoed with a number of pundits in media. Maybe they are quoting Ben.

Also is it about following an exciting mystery? Not to me it wasn’t. In fact to become a follower of TI and DO’s teachings now isn’t at all an exciting mystery. We know exactly what we will be accused of, like our lives are so bad that we needed to believe in something or that we are naive and easily led by some charasmatic leader or we were weak minded and brainswashed. The data, the facts don’t back any of that up at all, yet the media pundits say it over and over and over, so what happens, many people believe it because they respect the so called professionals are intellectually astute.

StuBlad:

Hi Dr Zeller, As part of your research on Heaven’s Gate, were you ever given access to any materials that weren’t available to the public? For example, confidential police reports, crime scene photos that we haven’t seen, autopsy reports, etc? The reason I ask is, is there anything you can recall from such things that would be of interest to those who are interested in this story? At least, how it ended.

Ben Zeller:

Mrc and Srf showed me some of the materials that they had taken from the storage facility, and they showed me the financial ledgers that are not available to the general public. I wrote about them a bit in my book. But really almost everything I have from the end of the group has been made public. I requested it through the Freedom of Information Act from the FBI, and the equivalent laws in California.

I do recall a conversation I had with a journalist who had interviewed one of the members of the sheriff’s department in San Diego. The sheriff’s deputy’s last name was Scully, and he joked with the FBI agents (when they showed up) that they probably knew his sister who worked with Special Agent Mulder. The FBI guys either didn’t get the joke or didn’t think it was funny, and the deputy was sort of bummed. As an X-Files fan, I found it amusing.

Sawyer:

I’d like to know what materials Mrc and Srf (Mark and Sarah) showed Ben or if he doesn’t feel to be specific, why? Did Mark and Sarah make him swear not to reveal what they showed him? That’s not a far fetched idea as when the sent one audio tape to some I was told they included some instruction that they could only keep this for personal use.

chickenugett:

Dr. Zeller, Most discussions of the group understandably end with their mass suicide in 1997. However, not only are there ex-members that retained the group’s belief system left behind, but also recent adoptees that were never a part of the group. What are your thoughts on the future of the belief system (especially in light of the recent legal battle between the TELAH foundation and other believers), and what can this phenomena say about the propagation and evolution of religious movements after the death of it’s first adherents more broadly?

Ben Zeller:

The precedent is there. I just ran across an interview with a self-described new member of the Class, someone who converted through encountering Sawyer.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ-WRpqVe34&t=110s)

I haven’t listened to the entire interview yet, but this new member seems to have really understood and come to accept the teachings of Ti and Do. A lot of what Heaven’s Gate taught makes sense to people within a certain spiritual worldview. They see it as an evolution of what they already know or suspect. There will continue to be a small number of people for whom it appeals as long as either the website remains up, Sawyer keeps actively sharing his ideas and experiences, and/or Crlody keep posting on his blog. The big question is that lawsuit. The fact that ex-members are suing each other shows how powerful this is, and why it still has the hold it does.

You ask a really interesting question about the propagation of new religious movements after the death of their founders or first adherents. We don’t have really good data, but the assumption many scholars have is that most groups are short-lived and don’t survive the loss of their founders. A lot of small guru movements, channeling groups, and small Christian sects seem to come and go. But there are clear exceptions. Any new religious movement that is well organized seems to survive, especially if they have printed or digital materials or some lingering members who care about the group. These movements are probably more resilient than we give them credit for. It also gets into what sociologist of religion Max Weber called the “routinization of charisma” – is there some way that the founder’s charisma can be maintained after they are out of the picture? That can be in a sacred text, a new leader, an organization, etc. Some new religions have done that really well, like the Mormons in the 19th century or the Scientologists in the 20th century.

Sawyer:

Re: Ben’s writing, “There will continue to be a small number of people for whom it appeals as long as either the website remains up, Sawyer keeps actively sharing his ideas and experiences, and/or Crlody keep posting on his blog.”

As Cathy and Alexander and a number of others I know could testify, they didn’t become interested in the Story because of the Heaven’s Gate Website, nor my expressing my ideas and experiences, nor from Crlody’s blog posts. None of these have any great following. The elephant in that room is that they chose to exit in such a way that insured their foes would continue to broadcast the story while taking every opportunity to slant it away from their very robustly revealing even sensible teachings and “Good” behaviors and ways that all the religious leaders if they believed in what their founders taught would be challenged to hold in high esteem. This is a proven fact, that with each documentary more people have been interested to learn more about what TI and DO taught. At this point there is no telling whether that amount of people interested will grow. For example we put on four public meetings so far. Considering the tiny bit of advertising they were each well attended, but in particular the last two in Savannah and Cincinnati each sold out 100 tickets and that was with like 4-5 days of very limited advertising. One person at the last meeting said to me they became interested to hear what I had to say because they noted that the media seems to be going overboard to paint the story as pure evil.

TI and DO knew in 1982, heard in a number of audio tapes that there would be a significant “drama” in their exit. This is the way the Next Level runs their earth “garden”. When Jesus left he left with a great drama the lower forces jumped in right away to begin the distortion and dilution of what Jesus said by creating the Saul turning into Paul the believer scenario, though it took time for the lower forces to seek to really squash the truth of what was taught by Jesus and/or twist it, in fact evident most when the political church started with Constantine and Paul’s Epistles became it’s foundation rather than focusing on all the things Jesus said.

You all might also make note of the way the Catholic church, not only sought to make Peter the foundation of their church because of that little thing Jesus said when Peter correctly answered a question. Jesus was saying what Peter realized was the “foundation” of his believers (church) not the person of Peter. Then they put Mary on a pedestal as well when Mary at best was a student and they made her into a “goddess” like was done before and even tried to link her to the Revelation 12 “Woman”.

Where Ben says, “The big question is that lawsuit. The fact that ex-members are suing each other shows how powerful this is, and why it still has the hold it does.”

Correction – ex-members are not suing each other. I and Crlody and even Cathy are being sued by Mark and Sarah. It’s part of my defense and the defense of the other defendants to counter sue. If we hadn’t counter sued when we provided our “answer” to their complaint we would most likley lose that ability to counter sue. Plus if we hadn’t counter sued then even if all their complaint was thrown out and they didn’t get any of the compensation they are asking for that amounts to millions of dollars, we wouldn’t be able to have a claim on receiving the audio tapes they still have that they never gave to Jhnody, about 100 of them. Plus this defenses has cost me thousands even though Cathy and I have done everything pro se and they should be responsible for the debts I had to incur because of their actions against me/us.

Simultaneously, the church sought to restrict what manuscripts they were going to share with the public, having various councils to decide what was part of the “canon” and what was not. Then when the dead sea scrolls were found and the Nag Hammadi library they sought to hide them from people and/or claim they were not authentic and probably are still hiding parts of them.

Is it coincidence that Mark and Sarah are persecuting me and and Crlody (and even including Cathy) using the U.S. laws to decide that only they can choose who gets what information that was left behind by DO as gifts meant to be for all who were inclined to want and disseminate their information they left behind which there is a huge amount of proof DO, TI and Crew wanted. Is it the same minds seeking to now hide the audio tapes, especially the ones where DO tells the truth about why they were both sent out of the part of the Class where DO resided, where any student was required by their own choices to abide by all the procedures or leave.

Kingdom_of_heaven (Alexander’s) Response to what Ben Zeller said:

Hello, I am the new believer, Alexander, pictured/mentioned above. I wanted to clarify that I am not “a new member of the Class”. The Class is gone (not on earth), and there is no new group/class yet – as there are no Older Members incarnate that anyone is aware of. Also, I believed prior to meeting Sawyer. That just made me become actively involved. Otherwise, I hope you enjoyed the interview. I am available for contact at beyonddeathrecordings@gmail.com

Warmasterwinter:

Hi Dr Zeller. If the Heavens gate cult did not die from mass suicide in 1997, do you belive it would still be around today? And if so, what changes could you forsee them introducing to survive in the modern world?

Ben Zeller:

I think they would be, and probably still would be waiting for the UFO. Applewhite may have already passed by now, but they had the precedent of Nettles’s passing. They understood Nettles’s death as Ti’s Next Level mind burning up her human body, and presumably would have felt the same about Do. I would conjecture they would still be living in a quasi-monastic manner. Community was important to them.

However, they conceptualized themselves as a class. That’s what they called themselves, after all, The Class. With both teachers gone, what would they do? I think they would have seen their continued presence on Earth as a sort of “internship” – one last set of experiences to have, to learn how to overcome, before going to (or returning to) The Evolutionary Level Above Human. They would need to adjust their theology. When Ti was on Earth, she channeled the Next Level. After she left, Do received communication from Ti, or at least sensations of communication (he never claimed, as far as I know, to be an actual channel). Would a member have stepped up and become the next channel? Would they all have? Or would they have believed the lines of communication are closed? Or a mix of all of them. Most of the ex-members believe communication is closed, but Sawyer implies some continued connection through dream states or other visionary experiences. So a continuing Heaven’s Gate might look a lot like a bunch of Sawyers. They also might look like modern day Shakers. The Shakers, also a celibate order, survived for hundreds of years after their founder died and after their “era of manifestation” in the 19th century ended and they no longer received spiritual messages. Last I checked, the Shakers were down to three members in Maine.

Sawyer:

Re: what was asked Ben about what might have happened if the Heaven’s Gate cult did not die in 1997.

I beg to differ with Ben saying that any “theology” would have changed had both Older Members left their vehicles before the Class Members. That’s not an opinion. In fact in 1978 TI and DO posed the question, “what if we both left before you all,” to which the only point I recall from that was when they said, not to get on a UFO unless it felt right and they said we would know it was from them. Given the audio tapes from 1996 and 1997, the students would have spent their remaining years disseminating TI and DO’s Information. In fact that’s exactly what they instructed those who believed in them who became or continued to believe in them after they exited. It was even described as a needed task to perform to show the Next Level we were willing to Stand in Their Defense of TI and DO as from the Creators Kingdom who created the earth and all it’s life forms and would have to maintain that stand and accept the consequences until they exited their human vehicle and that we needed our human vehicles to take advantage of performing that service and to further gain strength by controlling our vehicles in all the many ways.

I don’t know where Ben read or heard that TI “channeled the Next Level”. In fact, I’d bet I could find an audio tapes that says they don’t “channel”. Case in point would be audio 250B referring to Shirly McClains “channeling” in the movie “out on a limb” and others. In fact it was an example of what not to do because for a human to become a channel means they are inviting another entity, space alien and/or disincarnate or some type of thought stream to take over their vehicle. Next Level Students need to be in their vehicles all the time and be the only one in their vehicle. Older Members don’t take over one’s vehicle.

If you examine the tape log of all the audio tapes we have available since Mark and Sarah have not won their lawsuit to stop anyone from having them, you will see the use of the word channel as to tuning into the Next Level’s channel like on a radio dial. Or one will see it talked about as “channeling Next Level Love”.

But “Channeling” is what space alien souls and/or discarnates do through some humans, even many humans that many humans don’t even know is happening. In other words human vehicles are like “time shared” computer systems, shared by multiple discarnates we invite to use our vehicles by seeking this or that talent or skill or career, that in doing so attracts discarnates and/or space alien souls to literally use our vehicle. So what we are is the “chooser” of what to think, say and do. That’s how a mind is built. The Next Level Members, students need to rid themselves of those “Influences” to build the strength of will to keep them out of our vehicles and if we do so satisfactorily before we leave these vehicles the Next Level will advance us to our next more appropriate station of growth in the Next Level or at the least put our Souls “on ice” (not literally) but saved for a further time to finish our overcoming.

When TI and DO were both incarnate working together they individually received communication from TI’s Older Member, so they could be one another’s check partner as they also knew the lower forces would pretend to be their Older Members. They had to work hard to “feel” their Older Member’s Mind and learned how to recognize it. DO knew that TI was his Older Member so he still looked to TI’s lead on any subject or new instructions but as can be seen in many audio tapes DO is operating with TI as a partnership. After TI left DO then recognized when TI was communicating with him and when she was not and it was a continued struggle to be sure of what he was receiving as he still knew he could be misled by the lower forces. DO said the Next Level uses radio waves to communicate with human vehicles who are asking. He said that humans haven’t been given the intelligence from the Next Level to know how to receive and/or transmit that band of radio waves. I have experienced a little bit of recognition of when the Next Level seems to be giving me some communication but it’s not ever new information I can be sure is from them so I never state that it is because the only way we can know it’s from them is by seeing/hearing their thoughts in person and/or in writing and/or in audio and video tapes. However, even then, circumstances can change what they might say to new situations though most things they said and left behind won’t change thought there can always be a better understanding of the things they left behind that they said.

No students left behind step up to become a channel. I don’t know why Ben is admitting that DO never claimed to be a channel and then talks about TI being a channel and that students left behind when/if they both left becoming or stepping up to become a channel. That’s all a bunch of confusion and misinformation and I hope Ben reads this and uses better terms that can be shown to have come from TI and DO instead of grabbing on to the distortions of the new ager pseudo spiritualists who are acting as channels and claiming their are elevated by doing so.

I never claimed that my dreams were definitive communications from them. I personally feel some were them giving me answers to certain questions I asked of DO after they left. TI and DO taught that the Next Level uses dreams at times with humans to help them with the next days lessons. That is for any human. That doesn’t elevate someone to have dreams like that. In fact perhaps it shows that they needed that help where others who don’t have such dreams might not need that help. I had various premonitions and was given to see Spirits a number of times but I don’t make a big deal of them and feel I was allowed to see such things so I could communicate with other humans who have had such experiences from a place of experience of my own. I always believed Spirits were real, discarnates. But now I believe I’ve seen them. However that time of seeing spirits/discarnates or even some might have been Souls who were among the fallen angels, the Space Aliens has been long passed and I haven’t seen anything for many years. In fact of the dreams I’ve recently had with DO and/or classmates in them, I think most are being provided by the space alien or discarnates to try to act like it’s DO and/or Crew members when it’s a facsimile of them and it’s pretty clearly not them because of the vast difference from the dreams I had long ago that I feel were them.

That’s rather insulting to say “So a continuing Heaven’s Gate might look a lot like a bunch of Sawyers. They also might look like modern day Shakers.” I’m not really insulted. That’s also ridiculous and I’ve never ever given anyone any indication that I am a model believer. Even if I were, it would be way off track for anyone to look to me as a Teacher. DO and TI are our only Teachers and whether they are incarnate or not, that’s the way it is. I am not needed at all, not one iota by the Next Level. If I was not here there would be others who would fulfill any tasks I have or can perform. It’s for me that I have service the same as any true believer in TI and DO has if they want it and seek to be in TI and DO’s service.

And to compare with the Shakers is again way off any realistic understanding about all that TI and DO represented to us. For instance they like all religionists are living in the past in many ways. Celibacy has it’s value. There doesn’t need to be propagation on this planet at all according to TI and DO. The Next Level could make new vehicles for Student Souls to have to learn to take over should everyone cease propagating. I was reminded of that in audio tape 15 that I just listened to today that Cathy instigated our listening to and I remembered that meeting.

RidingWithDonQuixote:

Hi Dr. Zeller, I was wondering what your thoughts are on Janja Lalich ‘s concept of “bounded Choice” and how it relates to Heaven’s Gate? Thanks

Ben Zeller:

I think her model is circular and not particularly helpful. The way she defines bounded choice it can be applied to every religious group I am aware of, and many non-religious ones too, as she herself describes using the example of a political-social movement of which she had been a member. So if everyone’ choices are bounded, then what distinguishes the groups Lalich wants to call cults? From what I can tell, it is entirely subjective. The choices need to look extreme to her. But “extreme” is subjective, by definition. Is believing your group’s founder rose from the dead extreme? Is rejecting mainstream medicine to practice faith healing extreme? Or shunning one’s children if they don’t join your religion? Or requiring women to cover their heads or men to have beards, or for that matter performing your rituals naked? Or men to get circumcised, or remain celibate, or practice polygamy, or refusing to fight in a war, or forcing people to fight in a war? I’ve got no way to say whose religion is more or less bounded than anyone else’s, given how much religions have varied over time and across cultures. So bounded choice doesn’t offer a way for me to understand how or why the members of Heaven’s Gate’s choices were bounded, since it requires a subjective judgement that they are a cult before I am able to use the model.

Lalich engaged in very limited archival and historical work on Heaven’s Gate. She’s not a scholar of Heaven’s Gate. She is a professional anti-cultist for whom Heaven’s Gate is simply an example of a broader category, “cult,” that she wishes to combat. I don’t see a lot of attention in her work to what the members actually say about themselves, their own experiences, or their religious/spiritual journeys.

ProfessorSlendercat:

Dr. Zeller, It seems like Heaven’s Gate shares similarities with many religions of past and present in terms of theology with the concept of reincarnation, separating the mind from the body, and many more. It seems like Ti was very into learning about such concepts before her time in HIM. What shared characteristics/theological models do you see the most in both Heaven’s Gate and in other similar groups as well? • Dave

Ben Zeller:

Definitely, Ti had encountered these ideas before meeting Do. We know that Ti had been a Theosophist. The core idea of Theosophy is that people spiritually evolve over many lifetimes, i.e. reincarnation. Theosophists were inspired by Buddhism and Hinduism, and the founders (Blavatsky and Olcott) spent time in Asia, so there is indirect influence from those ideas in Heaven’s Gate. Most of the UFO religions of the 20th century were inspired at somewhat from Theosophy, especially through the “I AM” offshoot that focused on Ascended Masters from outer space who helped humans develop spiritually. The first major contactee religion, founded by George Adamski in the 1950s, was explicitly Theosophical. So it’s not surprising to find theosophical ideas like reincarnation in Heaven’s Gate. We also find it in the broader New Age movement, which also is influenced by Theosophical and Asian ideas. And we know Ti and Do were moving in New Age circles, or at least what we could call New Age now (alternative healing practices, energy work, meditation, spiritual practices involving yoga, etc.).

What’s so interesting is they take all that and then read it into the Bible and a basically Christian apocalyptic message about the end of the world!

Sawyer:

re: Ben saying, “What’s so interesting is they take all that and then read it into the Bible and a basically Christian apocalyptic message about the end of the world!”

Anyone who reads their bible, to include the words of Jesus knows he was claiming to have existed before he was Jesus. Plus people were always looking for the return of the messiah. Even most Buddhists, when one Buddha dies are looking for that same entity to return. The meaning of the word “incarnation” is “in the flesh”, thus reincarnation means “in the flesh again”. Since all the major religions were first stimulated by the Next Level Above Human, aka The Kingdom of God, The Kingdom of Heaven or in modern more accurate terms, The Kingdom Level Above Human or Kingdom of Space, the literal Heavens (elevated areas above the earth), according to TI and DO but became religions because the Lower forces, Lucifer and his associated “fallen angels”, aka Satan (Adversaries), the Devil (great deceiver) and other names, when a Next Level Representative exited their incarnation stepped in to distort and dilute the truth into a religion that then developed it’s own dogma that no longer resembled what the original Members of the Next Level taught. They still have the teachings in their holy books but they don’t know how to understand them so they focus instead on almost totally irrelevant parts of it like the way Christians became focused on Pauls Epistles that hardly at all taught what Jesus said because Paul didn’t know what Jesus said unless he heard part of it from the disciples who got it directly. And since even those disciples didn’t understand much of what he said the result is a religion that teaches nothing that Jesus taught.

Meditation is in the new and old testaments. It’s called Prayer, like the Our Father. If someone really wants to see how most everything taught by TI and DO is in the New and Old Testaments, I suggest reading my book. It’s available to read for free on my blog. Here is the address to the index file as it’s very long: https://sawyerhg.wordpress.com/2020/11/23/index-to-sawyers-book-posts-ti-and-do-the-father-and-jesus-heavens-gate-ufo-two-witnesses/

Yes TI and DO studied all the religous and spiritual materials they could find as they criss crossed the U.S. in 1973 because they both individually knew that they had each, their Souls, their advanced parts of their Mind had come from the Kingdom in the Heavens to bring updates to the Bible and to fulfill prophecy. They didn’t know what prophecy they were hear to fulfill until they came upon Revelation 11 Two Witnesses. They had a hard time accepting that. One can read about that time in ’88 Update – The UFO Two and Their Crew which is in the Heaven’s Gate Book and found on the Heaven’s Gate web site and can be downloaded for free from there.

They never taught out of the Bible. No reading chapter and verse. Only one time did we bring bibles to a meeting. That was when DO called the meeting that TI didn’t attend though she was still in her vehicle, which was rare for him to do. He said open your bibles, the few we had to Revelation 12:1 and said the “woman” was talking about TI and the Dragon was talking about Lucifer. He didn’t explain much more than that. I then went to that chapter when I started writing my book and saw how every verse can literally be talking about TI and DO and Crew.

However, DO did address a handful of things from the Revelation in the Beyond Human – The Last Call video series. We did do some study of the bible as an option starting in the late 1980’s when DO was getting signals that we might go public again and was examining what we would say, using what kinds of terms – religious and/or generic to approach which people. He ended up addressing both religionist Christians and Atheists in his posting to the world wide web in 1995 seen in the Heaven’s Gate Book as well.

I got off the statement Ben made but like I was trying to say, TI and DO didn’t “read” anything “into the bible”. It’s all there and I can prove it but the question is who is willing to look at it that most real way instead of always translating and interpreting what Jesus said and did in “spiritual (mental) ways” and/or only looking mostly at the parables and/or not seeing what Jesus said in context – making some of what he meant as literal into figures and visa versa.

KevinDLasagna: Wish I had a question, just wanna drop in to say thanks for sharing your knowledge on this group and subject. I’ve always felt that Dr. Zeller has had one of the more nuanced and compassionate responses to this group and their ultimate fate

Thanks! I know I’ve said this before in other interviews, but I see my work on Heaven’s Gate as an attempt to speak for the basic humanity of these folks. I realize of course that they didn’t see themselves as human, and in fact wanted to not be human, but from my perspective as an outsider to the group I cannot help but want to understand them as fully human, living through all the same sort of turmoil, joys, problems, happiness, and confusion as the rest of us.

Sawyer:

re: Ben saying he sought to “understand [the group] as fully human.

I understand that, but as one of them whole heartedly, though having failed to make the grade they made, I believe I can say that there was no confusion among group members that we all had human vehicles, so no lack of dealing with all the things humans deal with and enjoy, etc. However, what we also knew was that there were things about humans we did not identify with. I know this is the case with many. I bet Ben is included in that. For instance the wars are characterisitic of some humans to wage and support. Abusing people, manipulating people, deceiving people, judgementalism, hording wealth, not wanting to help people, being selfish, gossip, seeking vengence and jealously are all additional characteristics of many even most humans. The reason some of us know this, even though we haven’t necessarily conquered those behaviours and ways is because we also have Above and Beyond Human Mind that has taught us and we’ve learned from experience was true, that those behaviors and ways were primitive. There are many more. We all have ancestors who experienced these behaviors and also some have ancestors who were literally witnesses to the times when Older Members came to the earth to teach a Class. I would suggest that the greater challenge is not to see the human characteristics in the Class members but the characteristics they developed that were taught by TI and DO and are evident throughout the audio tapes as proof. And this is a big part of why Mark and Sarah have been conned to try to hide those tapes as the lower forces don’t want anyone to really know the in depth evidence of what TI and DO and Crew were all about. They were about pure Goodness.

Those lower forces bombard all of us so there is no shame in dealing with their thoughts. But if we don’t choose to see the handwriting on the wall of who TI and DO were representing, over and over and over, well then eventually we each decide our own fate of never rising out of our humanness. This was designed to work this way so that people would have to really want to learn the truth and choose to apply it.

hale__bopp:

Hello Dr. Zeller, I wanted to ask if you knew of it had any information about Srrody specifically to share. As well, do you know if there are any relics from any of the group’s businesses such as Think Link?

Ben Zeller:

I am sure there are relics out there. Every once in a while I come across something on eBay where a seller claims it was in the house in Rancho Santa Fe. I’m not really a collector myself, but I know this stuff is out there. Someone probably has a bunch of their stuff from the businesses, maybe even without knowing about it.

Srrody was a pretty important member of Heaven’s Gate. His birthname was Steven McCarter, and he joined in February 1976, which was a month before Ti declared the harvest closed. He was a student at the University of North Carolina when he joined, and he went by Surry in the group before they received their “ody” names. He was into computer programming. He was the first member to be castrated, and Sawyer recounts that the idea came from the two of them. Sawyer has talked a lot about that, so I won’t repeat it here (it is in the podcast, for example). There is disagreement over whether it was Srrody’s idea initially, but there is agreement he was the first to undergo the procedure, and no reason to doubt Sawyer’s account.

Srrody wrote a lot. He wrote an Earth exit statement, and contributed to the Heaven’s Gate anthology, the “purple book.” He believed in conspiracy theories, and defended himself and other members of the Class from the charge of being brainwashed. He also appears in Alxody’s Christmas home video that Alxody gave to his mother Nancy Brown. In the video he seems like a happy guy who had found a loving community. This is either heartening or depressing, depending on your outlook.

Sawyer:

I know this is Ben’s interview so I won’t try to answer the questions to him but my intention here is to respond to what Ben said when I feel certain things he said may not give what I believe is an accurate enough picture.

For instance, I understand that Ben has done some research re: Srrody and has this opinion about him, but saying “Srrody was a pretty important member of Heaven’s Gate”, I believe Srrody, if he were hear that told to the public would like for them to also hear his perspective, which I will attempt to express. I would say that Srrody was no more or less important than any of his Classmates. In fact, “self” is never in the picture for any Member of the Next Level. The best they can be is to be a link in the chain of Mind to the Chief of Chiefs, the way TI and DO described the most experienced Older Member of the Next Level, someone who DO said we wouldn’t understand more about where he came from until we were Members of the Next Level because our human brains aren’t capable of understanding much about him. However, Members of the Next Level are not the same. Some have more significant tasks than others have but it is not they who measure themselves or others – that’s a waste of time. Their Older Members have that kind of overview and give tasks to the younger members according to what they feel is productive for the crew of any laboratory which would also be a growth opportunity for that person as well.

I believe I heard from DO that TI stood up at the Manhattan, Kansas meeting, she and DO were giving, on April 21, 1976, when they were being heckled, and said, “the harvest is closed”. Later she and DO informed the Group coordinators of the 5 or 6 groups who were traveling around the country holding public meetings to finish up holding the meetings they had started. In the Group I became a part of, after roaming the US for several months apart from any Group, we finished the Fayetteville, AR meeting sometime in early to mid June and received instructions from TI and DO to gather in the Veedavou rustic camping area in the Medicine Bow National Forest east of Laramie, WY that began in earnest the “overcoming Classroom”. TI and DO never gave a public meeting again together or by themselves. In 1994 Students gave all the meetings though that was a type of “2nd rapture” – “catching away” from the world, Souls catching vehicles to complete their overcoming by rising out of human behaviors and ways.

I believe Ben’s saying re: Srrody’s castration, that, “Sawyer recounts that the idea came from the two of them” was not realizing that what I reported in that regard was taken out of context. I often say alot, even too much at times and what get’s remembered is only partly accurate.

It was DO who instigated the idea of having the castration (removal of testicles) in around 1989 when he wanted to have the procedure himself. Lvvody was an RN before she joined and had worked for doctors as her out-of-craft task (in the world) over the years. At that time, she worked as a doctors nurse in a private practice as I understand it, who performed orchiectomies, the removal of testicles mostly due to cancer. So Lvvody knew the procedure and new what tools and supplies to gather to perform the surgery.

DO said in a meeting Lvvody was gathering the needed items. He also told the entire Class if I recall correctly, that he had had a nocturnal emission and that he hadn’t done anything to allow or encourage it. A couple days later DO had a meeting with just the students who had male vehicles and he went into detail what the procedure entailed. He was bringing it up in case he got instructions to allow some students to have the same procedure. I remember writing a note to him saying I would like the procedure. He didn’t tell us we needed to have it or if we’d be making a poor choice if we didn’t want the procedure. Some in male vehicles didn’t even have a problem with their sexuality so they certainly wouldn’t need a procedure. A few days later, DO arranged for about a dozen students to come to his quarters, a nearby house to where we lived. His Helpers, Lvvody and Jnnody were there as well. In that little meeting he explained that he felt he might allow male vehicles to have that procedure. He said the same equivilent procedure for female vehicles was too invasive. He asked if any of us had a reservation of having that procedure. All I recall was Hvvody saying he had a reservation about having the procedure. That began conflict in Hvvody’s mind and that weighted on him heavy and because of that left the Class shortly after. I had no reservation about having the procedure and expressed that to DO in a note. A short time later, DO said he had no instructions from TI to allow a student to have that procedure. I had been asking him to have the procedure and at one point DO said there were two other students who were asking. DO told me at that point he had no instruction to proceed. So the entire subject was put on hold for even several years.

Then one day DO called Srrody and I to the phone and gave us instructions to come to his craft. We didn’t know why until we got there nad saw a sterile room had been organized out of a clean office space in the warehouse they lived in at that time. We didn’t know why but when we got there saw the sterile room and learned he was going to allow both of us to have the procedure. Prkody, (Michael F.) the third student who had been asking DO to allow him to have the procedure shortly left the Class but I’m not sure why.

So yes, Srrody had been asking DO to allow him to have the procedure and I had also made that clear that if he got instruction I’d still want the procedure.

This story plus more details of what took place, I put in the document, Sawyer’s Story on my blog at: sawyerhg.wordpress.com.

re: Ben’s saying about Srrody that “He believed in conspiracy theories” I find quite presumptuous. I don’t think Srrody was any more prone to jumping to conclusions that I am. There are some such theories that seem obvious to me that they are probably real and others not.

Yes, Srrody was a visibly expressive “happy guy” – happy to be a student of TI and DO’s. In general he was never really heavy in his demeanor.

davpostk:

Greetings, How important do you think the group’s specific theology played in the recruitment of new members? Did their exact message matter as much as what else the group offered, such as a sense of community and bettering oneself? Thank you.

Ben Zeller:

Excellent question. Both and neither, depending on the person. Some people joined because they were looking for explanations of Biblical prophecy, or of UFO sightings, or other specific theological ideas, and they found Ti and Do’s ideas convincing. Others just thought Ti and Do were far out, and joined for that reason. But plenty were just looking for spiritual fulfillment and community and a sense of truth and meaning. It was probably a mix for most people. There were a few head scratchers of people who joined in the 1970s who had not been part of any new or alternative religions, but most were spiritual seekers for whom joining a group like this offered a new way to transform themselves.

You have to remember that during that time it was a lot tougher to find a community if you were into alternative spirituality. Today we have the Internet and social media. Back then, they had bookstores, and co-ops, and head shops, and the very first New Age stores and retreat centers. There was a whole alternative spiritual ecosystem just forming, and Heaven’s Gate was part of that.

Sawyer:

Even if it were true that, as Ben said, “Some people joined because they were looking for explanations of Biblical prophecy, or of UFO sightings, or other specific theological ideas, and they found Ti and Do’s ideas convincing,” they probably never showed up at the next meeting. For instance during the 1975 meetings there were plenty of curiosity seekers who stayed after the meeting to ask questions and some were ready to join. For most they were told to meet us in the next city where we planned to hold a meeting. Some were told to be at a certain pay phone at a certain time and an existing member would be sure to call them and if they were still serious about joining would be told to travel to that next city. Anyone in 1975-6 and 1994 that wanted to join was given the task of tying up the loose ends of their lives and doing so quickly, like within 3 days (though for some it was more) and were instructed to “not leave a mess”. In other words, ask the Next Level or highest source in the universe in the literal deeps space heavens where space aliens can’t go, for help and try to listen for what feels right to do. There was to be no abandoning of children. If someone was serious and asked the Next Level for help in whatever their terms were, they would be given solutions to all problems. That happened in many circumstances I personally know about. For instance when Sngody joined part of my group in 1976 went to her hotel or condo or townhouse and she was there with her two teenage daughters. They knew exactly what their mom wanted to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for them and it wasn’t easy for Sngody either, but it seemed evident that Sngody had raised her children knowing that some day she wanted to go off to join a monestary. In Ron and Judy’s case, the two personal friends I had in Newport, OR made arrangements with Judy’s X who was the biological father of the two young children, Jenny and Noah a the time aged 4 and 1 if I recall. However, the media reported they were abandoned and in a sense that was true but not any more than what happens to many children when a marriage with kids breaks up. As it turned out Judy only stayed in the group a month or so and Ron not much longer.

My point is that “joining” wasn’t absolute by any means. In fact TI and DO wrote a letter that I think can be found entitled, “Prospective Candidate Letter” given to those we met at meetings. Even if someone was allowed to join, though they didn’t know it, it was on a trial basis. That was especially evidenced when TI and DO separated 19 students who had made it to the Wyoming camp in the summer of 1976 and then told the larger group of about 80 of which I was a part that you, “made the first cut”. Ti and DO didn’t think they were ready to give their all yet they still stayed in touch with them for years but some of them returned to the world and some remained together even renting a place together when we moved into houses around 1980. TI and DO lost touch with them and in about 1982 one of them, Drrody ran into Nrrody or Sngody where they worked at the Amarillo Hospital and he was allowed to rejoin. Otherwise no one could find us and by June of 1976 we weren’t looking for new members. I remember when Jssody left around 1980 right after a UFO that TI anticipated picking us up didn’t show up. As I understood it she was with us mostly to see or board a UFO.

I joined with none of those interests Ben mentioned. I knew this was for me. TI and DO didn’t care about attracting a certain number like most all the other groups do by wanting continued new members. I guess one could say I joined because I was looking for “spiritual fulfillment” as Ben suggests but for me and I bet most it had nothing to do with “wanting community” except perhaps on some subconscious level. I know psychologists like to thrown around all these reasons and yet they also often hate to look at an answer they can’t or don’t want to fathom, that certain vehicles were prepared by the Next Level to be ready to join with the Older Members when they came in the flesh. (incarnate). Before I joined I tried to be a part of other alternative religions. I went to a couple Sufi dances in Oregon. I meditated on the picture of Sri Chin Moy on the request of one of my musical buddies who was a disciple of his. I was reading the Bhagavad Gita and not making a whole lot of sense from it. It was given to me on the street where I often found myself by a Hare Krishna devotee whom I spoke to for a while. I read the book by Parmahansa Yogananda and wanted to be enlightened like he was, though had no idea what that was nor how much work would be required. I participated in several informal meditations but became bored. I stayed with a house full of Jesus freaks for about a week or so and it was a time of regular debate. I thought the new testament, though I respected the words from Jesus, was full of inconsistencies and contradictions. (Perhaps that was found mostly in Paul’s letters). But I didn’t understand what Jesus taught much then.

In 1994 while I was one of the two overseers of a group holding public meetings around the US, we put on a meeting in chicago with two other groups in that area. Some of the footage is available on crlody’s youtube channel. After the meeting a young couple were considering joining us and my partner Chkody and I were interviewing them informally trying to learn what they wanted and then also telling them what we were doing traveling town to town holding these public meetings. When I told him we were out of money so received our needs – food, gasoline and sometimes lodging and posters and a meeting space by asking Churches and anyone and sometimes working odd jobs and that when we got food donations we generally ate what was offered us and that sometimes that meant eating at taco bell and other fast food places, they said they couldn’t do that as they were strict vegans. That ended the talk. I had no desire to have to largely manage a group of new members who were so inflexible about what they ate, as long as the food wasn’t disgusting and didn’t entail dumpster diving to obtain.

So what I’m saying is that “joining” didn’t look like what it looked like in probably any other cult or group becasue TI nor DO were working to get more heads into the group. We did welcome anyone that wanted to go the distance of learning how to overcome all their human addictions.

Sseae:

Hello Dr Zeller, What do you think are the healthy psychological needs that people seek fulfilment of in cults? Thank you

Ben Zeller:

I’m not a psychologist, but I think it boils down to belonging and meaning. We all want to feel like we belong. Some of us are lucky enough to find that in our birth families, or our chosen families, or work, clubs, groups of friends, etc. But everyone has a need for some sense of belonging. (I suppose there are rare exceptions, hermits and such, but even they tend to be parts of religious orders or groups.) We also want meaning in our lives, a sense of purpose or fulfillment or overarching story about our lives. Our capitalist society often reduces that to “what do you do,” i.e. your job. But there are many other ways to find meaning.

Cults put these together, and tend to do so in a radical way, by not only providing a sense of belonging and meaning but by declaring that they offer the only meaningful way to belong. Everything else is marked as inferior, even evil. But it isn’t just groups we label cults that do this. We find it to some extent in most religions, and especially in fundamentalist religions. It is very powerful to say that one belongs to a group which has the absolute truth, and that everyone else is simply deluded and wrong. We see this in politics, fandoms, etc. But it is even more powerful when you say God is on your side. That is one reason I don’t like the language of “cult.” The same sociological and psychological forces at work in new religions are present in many other religions and even outside of religions, but we are just used to it.

Sawyer:

I have to offer another answer to the question from Sseae about what are healthy psychological needs that people seek fulfillment of in cults.

Ben says it’s “belonging and meaning” but then says that’s what “we all want to feel…a sense of belonging…and also meaning in our lives, a sense of purpose…”

Then Ben says, “Cults put these together, and tend to do so in a radical way” as if any cult leader sits around and thinks up the things he/she can think up so that they will attract followers by grasping on to their offering of what it means to belong to something or to have a purpose.

To me that doesn’t at all describe cult leaders and especially not TI and DO but it does seem to describe governments who plan and analyze what to tell people so they will vote for them. Like when George Bush realized that if he played to the Christians, he could probably win and did. It’s called politics – tell the people what they want to hear. It doesn’t matter much if you actually deliver because no matter what you will do what the party leaders and associated government leaders and corporate leaders in bed with government want anyway.

Case in point. Look how much of the public was hoodwinked or didn’t care as long as they could win, when after trying to doctor voting districts and use all kinds of shenanigans to get votes and reduce what opponents get, when they were caught as in the 2000 election in Florida, they got the supreme court of the U.S. to order the supposedly sovereign Florida Supreme Court to change their minds and not recount at least one major county’s votes where there were many irregularities that it was proven later would have resulted in Al Gore winning the presidency and even Al Gore reversed his stance from saying publicly that “every vote would be counted” to throwing in the towel an hour or so later as I watched what was happening.

Then when Bush admin was in power his cronies orchestrated wars in Afghanistan and Iraq where Americans killed and mutilated and displaced millions of people on totally falsified pretenses and the Democratic leadership like the Clintons’ went along with it hook line and sinker.

But let’s step back even further to the Vietnam war. The U.S. war machine brought that about and is it any coincidence that those that attracted the most attention to not have that war and to stop it after it began were assassinated, namely JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and even John Lennon and no doubt others and yet that’s all turned out to be called “conspiracy theories”.

So what does this have to do with the formation of cults?

The U.S. became the destination for people all over the world fleeing their tyrannical regimes. Those people had children. In the U.S. people were forced to join the military and all who didn’t want to kill and be killed for their government were killed as traitors. Then when soldiers came home from their wars and saw how they were deceived by the government leaders this made huge impressions on their families. My vehicles dad had regular nightmares because of his horrendous experiences in WWII. He’s be screaming at night every so often, holding onto the bed trembling. My Uncle, my dads brother fought in Korea and knew many who died because they were often treated as canon fodder by the generals, etc. Yet he didn’t know who to blame and was deceived to think it was all the fault of the democrats. When I was going to be drafted to go to Vietnam I prepared to go to Canada. There was no way I would go to kill and be killed and over 55,000 US soldiers died and killed millions. They dropped more bombs on Laos and Cambodia in a few weeks than through all the years of WWII combined.

So what am I doing, trying to give a history lesson? Well perhaps that can be helpful to this question that to me is a part of a number of questions and answers from Ben as to how and why cults form.

It’s because of a deep genetic sense that there is a great deal wrong with many people and leaders in this world. People come into this life and don’t even know how programmed they are to go along with the status quo and the status quo is like a stagnant pool that breeds decay. But is that true or is that just the ranting of a former cult member? Look at the evidence. If someone can’t see it, it’s because they either don’t have that knowing in their genes or they have led a sheltered life or refuse to see it because they don’t want to be seen or to even become one of “them” or because they are programmed to think, by their genes to think the way the world works is normal and normal is good, not having a clue how far from true “good” it is. So when someone comes along that sees through some of the crap, they hear some things that they are curious about so they listen more and sometimes are told by others that person is very special, to be looked up to, has gathered a flock and people are lifted up by it. Now these leaders in development are not Next Level Members though people that flock to them can learn a lot by following them until they start to see things that don’t make sense, don’t seem “good”. Then they should get out and continue to seek if there is someone else that helps them learn more. The problem rises when some get comfortable in a group, with certain leaders and even have their own forms of profit, like being given more responsibilities, even earn money and gain self esteem for themselves. For those, when they begin to hear something that perks up their ears they may feel it’s really interesting but then they can realize that if they continue in the vein they may lose what they gained with the other, so they block it out, even over and over and over. They become deaf to even the truth about the person they saw as their leader and fear changing and having to start all over again in some other vein. Then we see events like Jonestown and David Koresh’s Branch Davidians and the Solar Temple people and what happened in Kenya and others that show very bad horrific behavior and the so called normal society figures then lump in TI and DO’s Heaven’s Gate group with them though they have nothing in common except that people died, which all humans have in common with one another best I can tell.

Now this hardly relates to “cults”. Cults are labeled as such by the groups that once started when they themselves might have been seen as a minority organization or fringe or just plain contrary to the previous status quo. The word means it’s a “sub-culture” as opposed to a “culture”. Notice how every group that started as a cult still acts in cultish ways. Each major religion. Atheism, the Ye are Gods movement seen as parts of new age spirituality. Space alien worshipper groups. But that’s hardly all of them. Take the military – now that’s one huge culture many support with their lives and their children’s lives. Take the Universities with the same curriculum. If one doesn’t go along with that curriculum they won’t get the degree and won’t get the better job. If they are a teacher in that School and they don’t abide by the curriculum enough they never make it to tenure. Take the medical community. If one strays too far they can lose their license, especially when there is a political and other agenda to what the government is preaching is the only way to act. If one becomes a whistleblower that’s the end of their career so not something many have the guts to do.

None of these groups or the new ones called cults really spontaneously developed because hold onto your hats, they are the product of the Ones we’ve heard about called the Space Aliens who in the records of earth civilizations were led by one person who had the name Lucifer and were written about by Moses and Enoch and others as the “Fallen Angels” – some who once had a barely passing grade to their first year in “college”, hence Next Level Membership and were given very elementary tasks and they botched them up and didn’t want to receive correction from the Next Level Older Members so they gradually lost sight of how far advanced over them and all humans and human equivalents these Older Members were/are. These are the ones who are still among us on earth though very good at hiding but who bombard humans with thoughts to keep them addicted to themselves and substances and sensuality and procreation that keeps depleting their ability to recognize the truth when it is staring them in the face.

The humans who have the most influence over other humans are the ones who these Lower forces most fill with their ideas so that they will become their ambassadors to keep the people distracted from seeking or comprehending what’s real, that there is a purpose to all this and for those that refuse to look for it, perhaps they will get more chances but at some point that will end because we live in a cyclic condition and humans are important to a point, since we need these human vehicles in order to learn lessons through and without gaining strength directing our vehicles we won’t ever qualify to become even beginners in the Next Level.

So I think one of the biggest positives in cults is being willing to embrace new information and learn more of what’s true yet at the same time known when to move on, if one never comes into recognizing the endless growth that an only be had by pursuing TI and DO’s teachings.

Flippin_Heckles:

No questions here. I just wanted to say on behalf of the moderating team and r/ Heavensgate community, thank you for agreeing to do this ??

Ben Zeller:

My pleasure! I stumbled across the r/Heavensgate forum before. I can’t remember if a student told me about it, but I was impressed by the research and dedication your community has to understanding this misunderstood group. I was tempted to pop over and say hello, but I didn’t want to be intrusive. It reminds me of the old Usenet newsgroups I was part of back in the 90s.

RidingWithDonQuixote:

How would you describe the relationships between Total Overcomers/Heavens Gate and the 12 Step movement, and where one might be able to get more info on their interactions with groups of this type? It’s no secret that Heaven’s Gate was influenced by at least some of the 12 step groups (e.g., sexaholics anonymous), but finding any specific historical examples of interactions between Heaven’s Gates members/founders and the 12 step groups has proven difficult for me to track down. Thanks again

Ben Zeller:

The time period in 1987 when the Class called themselves the Anonymous Sexaholics Celibate Church is the most direct example of this sort of influence. But from what I can tell, that was mostly a marketing approach, and members were not using 12 Step approaches in their actual practices. The group dropped the Anonymous Sexaholics Celibate Church a year later, in 1988, but the influence continued. They talk about addictions and overcoming addictions in the Total Overcomers Anonymous documents as late as 1993, even thought they had dropped the Sexaholics and adopted the more general “Overcomers” name by then. But obviously, given that they still called themselves Total Overcomers Anonymous, they were still alluding to both recovery programs generally and likely 12 Step programs in particular. So you are right that there was influence that continued, and clearly someone in Heaven’s Gate had run across 12 Step programs at some point. I have not ever seen evidence of who or when, so your guess is as good as mine.

Sawyer:

I don’t know why Ben believes the name of the project “Anonymous Sexaholics Celibate Church” (ASCC) was a “marketing approach” as there was nothing for sale, no market.

As I was there, true we didn’t have a 12 step practice in relationship to that addictive behavior. However, I recall both TI and DO being fond of the Alcoholics Anonymous groups to a point. But TI and Do were not influenced by 12 Step groups teachings, it’s the other way around. TI and DO from their start even evidenced in the first book they began to write in January/February of 1993, entitled, “I can’t believe that but you must” that they thought they threw away but I ended up with by it’s faded yellow paper perhaps the original. In it they talk about overcoming all human behaviors and ways to evolve into a new creature.

I believe there were some students who had come through a 12 step program. But one problem they had with the sexahaulics anonymous group and I believe the sex and love addicts anonymous group in California that Alxody and Jwnody I believe went to visit and spoke to briefly (one of them) was that they insisted on telling their story over and over and over and thus re-stimulating that behavior over and over in doing so. And they didn’t like being told they could actually lick that addiction. Like the thinking that once an addict always an addict isn’t true.

If you search the tape log for keywords I believe you will find audio tapes of TI and/or DO talking about the 12 step programs. Also you will hear DO talk about them in the Beyond Human Video Tape Series and in their Book that is free to read online or download.

AnonymousDictator:

Would you be able to provide any information about how long each member who exited with the class had been a member before the exit? Thanks so much!

Ben Zeller:

This I can do! I am copying directly from Table 2.1 from my book, which was fact checked by Mrcody, Srfody, Rio, Sawyer, Crlody, etc. before I published it.

Name Year of Entrance / Initial Membership Do (Founder) Alxody* 1975 Glnody† 1975 Chkody† 1975 Jnnody† 1975 Jwnody† 1975 Lggody† 1975 Lvvody† 1975 Mllody 1975 Nrrody† 1975 Ollody 1975 Prsody 1975 Slvody† 1975 Snnody 1975 Stlody 1975 Stmody† 1975 Wndody 1975 Anlody† 1976 Brnody† 1976 Dmmody 1976 Drrody† 1976 Dstody 1976 Jmmody† 1976 Smmody† 1976 Sngody 1976 Srrody 1976 Strody 1976 Tllody 1976 Trsody 1976 Evnody 1991 Avnody 1994 Gldody 1994 Leody 1994 Qstody† 1994 Tddody† 1994 Wknody† 1994 Yrsody† 1994 Vrnody 1995 Dvvody 1996 †: contributed to the Heaven’s Gate anthology (“Purple Book”)

Fearless-Ninja-4252

Dr Zeller, Firstly, I would like to thank you for the research and information you have uncovered regarding Heaven’s Gate. I cheekily have more than one question: Why does the media and general public have the perception that Do was a mass murderer, when it has been well established that Ti was the true leader of the group, which brings me to my next question…. It seems to me that Do had truly convinced himself that he and the rest of Heaven’s Gate would ascend to the next level. Do you believe this to be the case, or do you think he is the master manipulator that the media, and Ti’s daughter has made him out to be?

Ben Zeller:

I think Do believed it. We have no way of knowing, but his actions indicated that he believed it. He lived like the rest of the group, he spoke with intention about the group’s theology, he followed the same rules everyone else in the Class did, and he died like the rest of them. If we decide to ignore his actions and words and claim that he did not believe them, then we need to do the same with every other religious leader. What proof is there that the Pope is really Catholic, or the Dalai Lama really Buddhist? Or anyone, really? Declaring that Applewhite was a master manipulator certainly helps Ti’s daughter Terri feel better about her mother’s choices, and for all we know she may be correct, but there is absolutely no evidence to support that position. (Likewise, people opposed to the Pope’s religion or politics do claim that the Pope isn’t a real Catholic, etc.)

However, the idea that Applewhite was a master manipulator and liar is useful if we want to reinforce our perspectives, i.e. the beliefs we have that make us comfortable. What Do did, and what members of Heaven’s Gate did, is irrational to those of us outside the group. But if we believe the members were duped and Applewhite was lying, then that fits what we know about cults and relieves us from having to think too hard about why 39 people thought laying down their human lives to leave the Earth and go to what they believed was the Next Level made sense to them. It is a lot easier to assume everyone whose beliefs and practices are different than ours are crazy, evil, manipulated, or brainwashed. I can see the power in that claim. Maybe they were, who knows? It just doesn’t have any evidence to support it.

Sawyer:

re: Fearless-Ninja-5252’s question, “Why does the media and general public have the perception that Do was a mass murderer, when it has been well established that Ti was the true leader of the group…”

First off, there was no “murder,” not one iota of murder. The media represents mostly the relative elites of the world and are anything but interested in reporting much objectively. Even when there are some who wish to present a more accurate picture of what happened, their editors won’t allow it. I know this as a fact from many and I mean many interviews I’ve had with most all the major media corporations, BBC, CNN, including Larry King, National Geographics channel, CBS 60 Minutes, NBC’s Today Show, Geraldo show, the Heaven’s Gate Podcast that led to the HBO Max Cult of Cults docuseries and the latest and perhaps the worst that you may be referring to, ABC’s 2020 piece (and many others including Vice and Inside Edition. I have given almost all of them like 3 hours of interviews and I gave dozens of concrete, even provable examples of how every student had to prove they wanted to be in the group (and student like myself didn’t even realize how much we had to prove it, because TI and DO, though encouraged us and at times pushed us a little and I mean a little, amounting to telling us in a plain voice that we needed to work harder on getting control of our vehicles to qualify to graduate into performing tasks on board Next Level spacecrafts in the literal outer space heavens). There are 1061 audio tapes that prove this, month by month over about 22 years of which I was present for 19. The ABC people wouldn’t even let me comment on an article they posted on their youtube channel, while before the event they were ever so nice to me. And by the way I am always respectful of people.

They only used what would fit into the story they wanted to tell. TI was not the “true leader” of the group. TI and DO worked as a partnership. They were both the true leaders of the group. I can prove that but the question is who wants to examine the evidence, or just take what the media says and assume they did the research which they hardly do.

It is true that TI at first largely woke up DO to his task. It is true that over some months DO realized on his own that TI was his Older Member in the Next Level, his Heavenly Father. Of course to many people that’s crazy but many people also don’t know what they don’t know. That’s why scientists and historians and anthropologists and archeologists and others worldwide are always updating what they thought they knew while the ones who have the most tail feathers in that then accepted societal views fight tooth and nail to claim new ideas or discoveries are illegitimate or not well founded as they fear losing their status in whatever community of their peers.

The Next Level has no “leaders”. Everyone is crew minded so no one wants to shine more than someone else. There are Older Members who usher into the Next Level Above Human Student members who graduate to become Younger Members. Among Next Level Members there is only those with more experience than others. It is obvious to Younger Members who their Older Members are. They don’t have ranks or wear stripes on their jackets to indicate some rank or how many years they have been Members of the Next Level. Humans do that kind of thing like in the military and as well as having more valuable things to show off.

Sometimes TI did say things as instruction but it was rare. They both received communications from TI’s Older Member at the same time in the same kind of way, so that when they would compare notes on what they were feeling, they would together arrive at what it meant, what to do next, what to bring to the Class next. One can see how they worked together in the audio tapes.

That ABC 2020 so called documentary stimulated a ton of misinformation. They tried to make it sound like DO was suicidal in the 1970’s. they tried to make it look like his homosexuality was the cause and that his human dad was part of it too because his dad didn’t accept his homosexuality. None of that has a bit of truth but again people might not believe me and that’s fine but then do the research that must go way beyond what the media has said as they have got so much wrong over many years so has become a type of brainwashing by repeating the same things over and over.

re: Fearless-Ninja-4252’s second question: “It seems to me that Do had truly convinced himself that he and the rest of Heaven’s Gate would ascend to the next level. Do you believe this to be the case, or do you think he is the master manipulator that the media, and Ti’s daughter has made him out to be?”

DO didn’t convince himself they would be ascending. It was part of his Mind to know that that’s what happens when anyone returns to the Next Level spacecrafts. They either walk on board the craft with their physical body as happened to Enoch and Elijah and Moses and Jesus or if they are leaving their human vehicle behind their Soul (a plasma like physical container that holds Next Level Mind)enters the spacecraft, I presume by floating on board. Both TI and DO brought enough of their Next Level Mind to be pulled into their human vehicle that knew this was the way it worked and then they read about it in the records and it made sense because they were the same people who left those records behind for their use to help the human vehicles brain remember.

Why is it that many people come into this life knowing certain things that others don’t know? Like I knew that the premise of there existing ghosts was real though I hadn’t had any conscious experience in this lifetime until after I left the classroom in the late 1990’s. Why did I know the war in Vietnam was a government conspiracy? Why do I know Humans aren’t going to change the earth’s climate in any significant way unless the Next Level allows them to, like perhaps might happen from a nuclear war and even then might not even make a dent in the climate except to fill the air with nuclear waste. Why did I know long before TI and Do talked about it, that there are people who live on different planets? Why is it that I can play music by myself and/or with others without any written notes to follow but some in symphonies have told me they wouldn’t know where to start? Why do some people pick up languages very quickly while others like me struggle with them. There are thousands of examples of some people just knowing some things others don’t and can do things that others are not yet able without any previous evidence of having been taught those things.

There are three sources of Mind each of us has. Genetic, Environmental like from what we accumulate from birth onwards and what we choose to do with it all and how we take charge of our human vehicle, which is a Next Level action.

I was not manipulated in the slightest way by TI or DO. In fact I know from experience that none of them were manipulated. Here is some logic on this score. Is it true that TI and DO did not even want students in 1975 after they had the first meetings in North Hollywood in April. What DO reported in ’88 Update – The UFO Two and Crew in the Heaven’s Gate Book was that they thought their task at that point was to deliver the information they had been receiving since 1972 and then move to the next group or town to do so. TI and DO told us that same story while TI was still in her vehicle and later I was also present there when DO wrote about it.

This was further proven when they stopped “recruiting”, which is unlike any other group I’ve ever heard of. Even Christians think they are somehow doing the Lords work to gain more believers and converts. Mit Romney even told of a requirement for new initiates into the LDS church priest hood that they converted a number of people. This is a common theme in probably all religions and not only those types of organizations but human organizations in general. Look at how governments rally their people to wars. Look at how differing parties use deceit and manipulation galore and justify it all as being better for the country. This is so widespread and hardly ever taught in many of the high schools because even if a teacher began to teach the truth, pretty soon they would lose that job for not sticking to the authorized text books.

I have hundreds of examples that could be proof of what I say that are documented in TI and DO and Crew’s many writings and audio and video tapes but few are willing to look into it. I don’t blame anyone for not believing me but it is a choice to dig into the truth for oneself regardless of what one believes about TI and DO if in fact that’s what someone wants to learn, though of course that’s a difficult task and it’s much easier to just believe what we are told by the media and pundits and even those who have surface studied the Information they left behind and from first hand eye witnesses, like myself and Crlody and Jhnody and Pmmody (Ananda) and others who have largely remained silent but can bring their own experience that there was no “manipulation”. These are all dropouts. How can one claim manipulation without specific evidence? Yet that’s what many in the media do.

Now re: Bens response saying re: the question of whether DO convinced himself He/They would ascend, (though Ben later supports the idea that we can know what he believed), but at first said, “We have no way of knowing”. Would we say this about anyone in history who has written and recorded over a thousand hours of audio tapes and written hundreds of pages of text and made over 15 hours of video tapes? There is no doubt that DO believed all that completed the Process enough through TI’s judgement would ascend with or without their human vehicle (body).

Ben is correct, that DO followed the same rules as students were expected to follow, though there were some very minor exceptions. Some will say TI didn’t because she wrote some letters to her vehicles daughter Terri, but though they encouraged us to write to loved ones as the first task to do when we joined (which I did) and then for some they wrote more at first and then it wasn’t until about 1984 when we made calls to loved ones in the world and then were given instruction to visit with whoever we thought had the most anxiety about our absence from their lives and then thereafter about once or twice a year we would call and/or write and had a second visit in 1986 or so and because of that visit Rthody ended up leaving the group to be with his vehicle’s family.

I don’t agree with Ben’s saying that Terri’s “Declaring that Applewhite was a master manipulator certainly helps Ti’s daughter Terri feel better about her mother’s choices,” but how do we know she feels better about her mother (TI’s) choices by calling DO (Applewhite) a master manipulator (if that is exactly what she said but I do recall something of that equivalence).

Where Ben says, “What Do did, and what members of Heaven’s Gate did, is irrational to those of us outside the group,” I just want to let it be known that there are quite a number of people who don’t see DO and/or the Members of the group as “irrational”.

I respect that Ben has at least taken a somewhat objective position, to the degree perhaps he is capable. I admit this would not be easy if our roles were reversed.

Re: their exit method choice. It’s documented in the Heaven’s Gate Book, in their document, “Our Position Against Suicide” that they each were willing to lose their vehicles they way they had planned (for nearly 3 years), that is if TI didn’t pick them up with their vehicles which they always preferred to happen. They knew they could each die by accident or from a disease or from some horrendous person who hated them or randomly killed them. So they preferred to name the time and place and method that DO had decided upon for himself. This is not an opinion. It’s all in their documents and audio tapes.

Murderalaska’s Art Bell question:

Ben Zeller:

I cover this in the last chapter of my book, but yes: I think it is clear that Chuck Shramek’s call to Art Bell’s show on November 14, 1996, and the Hale-Bopp Companion webpage that Shramek created were the source of Heaven’s Gate’s beliefs about the comet’s supposed UFO companion. Courtney Brown’s call to Art Bell on November 15, 1996, was also influential, since Brown claimed to have used remote viewing (effectively astral projection) to confirm the presence of massive UFO. Members of Heaven’s Gate would have accepted this as a valid spiritual technology, and given credence to Shramek’s and Brown’s claims.

Sawyer:

re: Murderalaska’s Art Bell question:

I don’t think that is correct saying Shramed and Art Bell and/or Courtney Bells call to Art Bell’s show were the source or an influence of Heaven’s Gate beliefs about the comet’s UFO companion for several reasons.

I agree in part that the media that started re: what ended up being called the Hale Bopp Comet influenced them to buy a telescope again to see what they could see. TI and DO always considered clues about what might be next for them from observation of the news and such. That’s the way their undercover task worked. Their Souls were sent undercover, looking like ordinary humans and they awakened those vehicles they actually tagged for use in the 1920’s and 1930’s at the time of their vehicle’s births. In 1975 they talked about how they rented the car using DO’s old credit card on Christmas day 1973 when Comet Khoutek was coming to perihelion, if I recall correctly. They took the names Jason and Shelly West about the time that Comet West came close to earth in 1977 or so and split into 4 pieces. Those two and Hale Bopp were all considered to be “Great Comets”. So to think about comets was not at all stimulated by these shows.

As they said on their Heaven’s Gate website, “Whether Hale-Bopp has a “companion” or not is irrelevant from our perspective. However, its arrival is joyously very significant to us at “Heaven’s Gate.” The joy is that our Older Member in the Evolutionary Level Above Human (the “Kingdom of Heaven”) has made it clear to us that Hale-Bopp’s approach is the “marker” we’ve been waiting for — the time for the arrival of the spacecraft from the Level Above Human to take us home to “Their World” — in the literal Heavens. Our 22 years of classroom here on planet Earth is finally coming to conclusion — “graduation” from the Human Evolutionary Level. We are happily prepared to leave “this world” and go with Ti’s crew.

If you study the material on this website you will hopefully understand our joy and what our purpose here on Earth has been. You may even find your “boarding pass” to leave with us during this brief “window.”

The reason the presence of a Companion object was “irrelevant” was because they always knew TI could come in with a spacecraft and crew to pick them up no matter where they were with or without any comets or other signs of that happening. However, they also always felt their exit would be dramatic. This method of exiting was talked about in audio tapes while TI was still in her vehicle a number of times.

Several times TI and/or DO felt it was a time to prepare and wait for that spacecraft to come. The first time was in November of 1980 while camping at Cave Without a Name in Boerne, Texas. The second time was in about 1989 when we traveled a little south of Albuquerque, NM and the third time if I recall correctly was southwest of Phoenix, AZ after we fasted on water for 13 days, in case it would work better to have no food in our vehicles systems. At the time I thought we might leave our vehicles.

I also remember in the 1990’s that we bought a telescope and would watch the heavens and additionally around that time or a year or two later, first heard from NASA, perhaps on the Art Bell show as we did listen to it sometimes, about an object being spotted outside the orbit of Pluto that seemed to change directions and speed. I don’t know whether that ended up being the Hale Bopp Comet or not.

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II. Comment and Sawyer’s Response:

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Fearless-Ninja-4252 saying to Sawyer…

“You left the group in 1994, so why do you think you are able to judge what Ti and Do wanted to happen to the audio tapes, better than Mark and Sarah are.”

Sawyer:

I am not claiming to be better able to judge what TI and DO wanted to happen to the audio tapes than Mark and Sarah are. They have the same ability to examine everything TI and DO said about the audio tapes and come to the conclusion that TI and DO express many, many times, how they wanted ANYONE who wanted to hear them have that ability. In audio tape 149, TI and/or DO bring this fact up at least 3 different times saying that. I have many additional clips of TI and DO stating that intention.

In my opinion Mark and Sarah have terrible judgement. After all they are suing three of the biggest disseminators of TI and DO’s information besides what they have done by maintaining the website and sending some video tapes out and giving a few interviews and while they are at it spreading misinformation about TI and DO while appearing to support them. They told Cathy, my partner who believed in TI and DO before I met her, in an email that “there is nothing to do” (paraphrased). According to TI and DO and Crew there is lots to do. They seems to be shifting TI and DO’s teachings into a new age religion. I thought I was seeing this and then I heard DO say it in an audio tapes from 1987 or so about them.

This is my opinion I know and I know I may be wrong but in part, even perhaps the biggest part, it seems Mark and Sarah don’t want people to hear what DO said about them in about a dozen of the audio tapes because they have been lying to the media and to others about why they were sent out of the group and it surfaces both their Influences (discarnates and/or space alien Soul (boogers) who the Next Level designed to work against them to help them build strength of Mind by combating, the same for all of us.

Mark even verified some of this in the Bardo Methodology Interview he gave where he blamed DO for listening to certain classmates re: the “mrcody problem” (labeled as “I could be wrong”) and the fact that Mark didn’t want to embrace that lesson step and then Sarah sided with him, her Influence even trying to get him out of the Class and that her influence even tried to use her vehicle to get me to not join in the first place (since Sarah was my partner in the world before we joined).

When I heard DO saying this at the time in that meeting it went way over my head. Then when I heard it again recently it still went over my head. I didn’t understand it, but then I thought about how Sarah, I felt was coming onto me when we first left to travel to the destination of Colorado National Monument. Yes we had been a couple but our relationship was on the rocks for quite a while that rarely included sexuality mostly because she didn’t want it. Yet after we decided to join with TI and DO, then she wants relations with me? When two people live together for about 5 years, together day and night one knows when the other isn’t interested and that was almost always the case with her.

Maybe I misinterpreted that, but then there were other times while in the Classroom she was acting strange. Like she would rub up against me when we were on lab duty together in the Juice lab. She seemed to be cozying up to me on our airplane trip together to visit our vehicles families during the second visit in 1986 or 1987. I thought I was imagining things and don’t recall reporting these things.

In another of the audio tapes DO verifies what I had heard while in the classroom…

One day Srrody came up to me and said that Sarah had been brushing up against him. We didn’t do any touching in the Class (except on the rare occasion of giving someone who returned from a difficult task a hug, or if we had the task to adjust someone’s back (Stlody had that chiropractor skill), or for a haircut for when we laid hands on Brnody’s legs to try to bring healing to her osteoperosis, which I had instructions to help her with at times (as did others)). We knew that Sarah or visa versa pulled one another into a closet and were feeling one another up. Alxody I recall surfaced it. I think it was when we were in the Amarillo Craft in around 1982 or so.

That seems to be what might be the biggest reason why they are suing me and Crlody (Carlan) and Cathy because we know that truth from hearing it on the audios from DO, but me in particular because I followed their Gizmodo interview years ago where they told the media their version of their leaving “because they had something else they needed to do” (paraphrased) and I pointed out why they were sent out and that embarrassed them. I understand being embarrassed as I was embarrassed when I heard tape 849 where DO talks about my leaving. At first I thought I remembered events better than DO but then as I listened to that tape a time or two again I realized that it was me who remembered events wrong. I was confused. But it’s so freeing to own up to one’s own mistakes and misconceptions. But if we have let Influences build up our ego then denying the truth is like deflating that ego and that can be near unbearable to someone though it doesn’t have to be.

Plus because Mark and Sarah at first were afraid of doing some of the tasks DO gave them to do (especially re: the main tasks of dissemination of TI and DO and Crews Information), they handed over their letters they got from the Class in their packet on March 25, 1997 to Rkkody on March 27th in the early morning. They could have told Rkkody of their content on March 25th when Rkkody said in his manuscript that he called them or on March 26th but didn’t so Rkkody didn’t know about the whereabouts of the audio tapes until the 27th when he and Oscody went to storage and retrieved 484 of the 1061 (according to Mark) audio tapes. The next day San Diego County put their locks on those storage rooms.

Among the many clues to what to do with the audio tapes was this statement where DO and Crew state their intention for some of the content of that specific storage unit where all the audio tapes and other Intellectual Property was stored:

“It is our desire that any items of value that are retrievable by you be divided among those who feel inclined to disseminate our information. Any of the funds you retrieve can be used towards that end and for the living expenses of those involving themselves with this project.”

The “project” is repeatedly expressed as being the dissemination of their Information project. That’s all DO and Crew really cared about happening especially after they exited their human vehicles.

Rkkody told Crlody that when he and Oscody opened the storage room, stacked up front were the boxes of audio tapes. He took some of them. I’m not sure exactly how many were in each box there. I do recall storing the audios in grey plastic boxes, that I think each had a number of slots in a foam insert.

There are many places in the letters that describe the project to disseminate and/or distribute their information. They had sent video’s and the Blue Books, they first put together, to Rkkody and Jhnody and others. The copyright on those books was “common law copyright” – spelling out the right to copy them or parts of them as long as they were unchanged and not added to or taken away from and not for commercial purposes, yet the Kings changed that copyright for their “purple book” (the last edit the DO and Crew gave Oscody (Mark and Sarah as checks) with instructions that he would register the Book with the Library of Congress. Mark and Sarah seemed to have commondeered that task as well. One can see the original copyright on the Heaven’s Gate web page under Book. There were no instructions to copyright anything except as shown for the book yet the Kings copyrighted some audios and video’s and the book and certain images that had been previously copyrighted by their author Olliver Odinwood. I could go on and on with the many lies Mark and Sarah have told the courts and other legal entities. I don’t think any of it was necessary but Mark seemed to have become possessed with doing everything in legal ways. Not saying to do things in an illegal way but one didn’t need to obtain lawyers beyond to get the tapes back from San Diego. Plus when many people have asked them questions they have outright lied in their answers many times and when I pointed it out they denied it.

We have many clips from audio tapes expecting the audio tapes to be heard by anyone who wants them. In Jhnody’s letter and Rkkody’s letter from the Class they stipulated to copy the video tapes and give them to the media and anyone who wants them.

Mark and Sarah King have done a tiny bit of this but would not provide only a few audio tapes to people who asked and though Crlody and I were sending them to people for free for years because Rkkody gave us each cd’s with about 214 audios on them, they still sued us.

There is so much evidence that it’s almost a joke that Mark and Sarah are seeking to be the only people to possess the tapes and not share them with hardly anyone at all and especially not to people that are actually disseminating them.

Additionally, what does it matter what year I left and why I left. We have TI and DO’s many instructions and intention and desire for their information to be provided to people.

Next Fearless-Ninja-4252 says…

“You admit to saying a lot, possibly too much at times, then complain that what you have said has been misinterpreted.”

Sawyer:

By saying too much, what I was saying was that people just get overloaded and sometimes can miss the main points because I provide too much detail for them to digest.

Next Fearless-Ninja-4252 says…

“These things happen to all of us, but it’s not fair to suggest Dr.Zeller or anyone else is lacking in knowledge, or partaking in gossip, when they are going by the words and anecdotes from YOUR mouth.”

Sawyer:

If they are going to quote me out of context then that’s on them not me. I can’t control the interviews I’ve given but people no matter who they are can ask me instead of saying very uninformed things about some alleged new group looking like a bunch of Sawyer’s. That’s a very poor choice of words and has no truth to it. How would you feel if someone said that about you publicly and it had no truth to it. Where is his evidence? Is it because Alexander has long hair and a beard. Well he had that long before he ever heard about me.

Next Fearless-Ninja-4252 says…

“There is no doubt you committed a great deal of your time to Ti and Do, but I have my doubts over how authentic your belief in their teachings is, considering you left because you couldn’t stop yourself from masturbating.”

Sawyer:

Some people love to throw that in my face, that I masturbated. Obviously you haven’t read my full account of what led up to that. It wasn’t at all that simple. And for you to question my authenticity of belief in their teachings seems to me like your form of attacking the messenger because you don’t want to really look at the message. Your criteria for that judgement shows you are ignoring a mountain of TI and DO’s teachings to instead focus on trite differences with the way I’ve grown my hair and whiskers and what clothing I wear. Case in point when you go on to elaborate…

Fearless-Ninja-4252 saying…

“Having human compulsions is natural and perfectly healthy, but if you truly believed the class mentality that individualism should be shed so that you don’t cling to your earthly vehicle, you wouldn’t have made the choice to watch stimulating videos on MTV, to leave the group, lead your own life with long hair and a wife. The rest of group made tough personal sacrifices and had a unified look (men and women all having short hair and wearing the same style of clothing”

Sawyer:

For 18 years I maintained what I thought was excellent control over my vehicles eyes and thoughts of sensuality but I started letting little things slide. The Next Level is trying to help us build our Mind so they give us harder and harder tests. Take a alcoholic who quits drinking. They may be successful for a long time and then someone dies in their family and they feel like they could have done more and they begin to binge again. As long as one is alive one has continued opportunies to rise above all human addictions and there are many forms of addictions that we don’t even know are addictions until we begin to look to those who came from the Next Level and have themselves overcome all human addictions even many times to help Student Souls.

I’ve never been officially married though yes I’ve had a few long term relationships. In the Classroom those can’t continue because we need to give our all. That classroom doesn’t exist as described in the Heaven’s Gate Book. However, all the lesson steps are still there for us to voluntarily (as is always the case) to wean ourselves from all human behaviors and ways and replace them with the behaviors and ways taught by TI and DO, our Teachers.

How one wears their hair can be the same as the choices made by TI and DO and Crew, but that same lesson period is over. As DO says in the Heaven’s Gate Book, what we get into in our humanness doesn’t matter except in how such indulgences could find us ill prepared the next time a Next Level Member has a classroom that we can join.

Clothing choices can matter but it’s the intention that’s important. The things you are mentioning are what Religions focus on instead of the behaviors and ways. In the Heaven’s Gate Book, see the List of Major and Lessor Offenses and the 17 Steps. Those are all of what is the criteria to build our Minds. I’m not claiming to be 100% but it’s never been about giving all or nothing. I don’t deny that there is more that I can give, but all in all DO and TI are my judges not even myself or others in the human kingdom.

I’m not “acting” as an authority. I am expressing TI and DO’s authority. I don’t force it on anyone. I don’t claim you must do what I say. But I am Standing for TI and DO as all who hope to be their Students now or in the future must be willing to do. (See Heaven’s Gate Book).

Next Fearless-Ninja-4252 says…

“I am not criticizing you for being unable to commit to the many restrictions the group placed, but it is unfair to act like an authority on Heaven’s Gate; purely on the basis that you were a member. You might have lived with them in terms of body and physical space, but you didn’t live their experience or share their commitment, so what makes your insight any more valid than Dr.Zeller’s, or anyone else’s?”

You say you are not criticizing me but then are full of criticisms. You don’t know what my commitment was or is to date. Isn’t that a bit foolish to think you can know that? If my criteria for insights are from TI and DO’s Mind, which anyone can have access to check out, then if I am correct in what I say in that regard then those insights are better than Ben Zellers and/or anyone else who hasn’t lived and/or studied the insights that TI and DO gave their students and continue to give to new Students. I respect Ben. I respect you as well. But I get to interject my opinion and the evidence behind my point of view and if that is offensive to someone that they may be wrong in how they saw something, that’s up to them to choose to examine or not.

TI and DO said that we all “need our human vehicles to learn lessons through”.

Plus Individualism isn’t shed it’s actually built through embracing the Mind from the Next Level that came through TI and DO. According to TI and DO humans are time-shared computer systems. Discarnates, (dead humans) latch on to those who can fulfill what they wanted while they had a human vehicle. When one completes the “overcoming of humaness” Next Level astronaut training program then one becomes an individual for the first time since there are no discarnates or space alien souls trying to control our vehicles. We think we are individuals but we are made up of our genes – genetic programming + environmental programming received by those humans and society from the birth of our vehicle. When we take control over our vehicle that begins a Next Level Student and Studentship is in degrees as all our humanness must be replaced to qualify. For instance, the Next Level gave the instruction to the primitives to not kill other humans. Those that believe and abide by that have at least a little Next Level Mind in their Mind but that’s only one early step in the civilization.

It’s all by choices and all in degrees. It’s never been about all or nothing. Listen to audio 334 for that clarity. You as so many seem to sit on some high horse of judgementalism and act as if you understand all that TI and DO taught while are like someone who went to see a movie and got there late so only saw the credits and people’s critique of the movie, so you don’t actually know what was in the movie.

Communication with the Next Level Above Human aka Kingdom of God in the literal Heaven’s of Deep Outer Space Where Space Aliens or Humans Can’t Go

I was talking to a friend who has recently chose to seek service to TI and DO’s Next Level Above Human by disseminating Their Information and seeking to overcome certain behaviors and ways that are not common to Members of the Next Level.

He was asking about how to recognize when TI and DO and Crew are answering his questions. I’ve tried to address what I believe was taught by TI and DO over their years incarnate and he had heard/read about this term called, “the feeler”. I remembered that term being used by TI and DO (then as Peep and Bo) in 1975 and believe I understood that it was even considered to be centered in the solar plexus area of the body. So I rounded out the talk a bit, for more of a general reader who may not have read or listened to much of the information left behind by TI and DO and Crew.

Yes, it is the “feeler”, which I will go into further later but it’s also about what’s in our heart though when grown represents the emotions of love for our Older Members and even for younger members of the Next Level, thus also towards student members, all representing a new Family that has or is in process of outgrowing (evolving) Beyond Human, beyond mammalian, beyond seed bearing plant life (human included).

But it’s also best to ask direct question as opposed to a general question, though it can at time be either. For instance I believe a completely valid question could be, “how can I be of service?” That has a general question but is direct that what you want is service. Of course the most primary way to seek answers at this time is to make this query but then dig into the information TI and DO and Crew left behind for us for the answers. While doing that, one can then ask specifics. Since dissemination of Their information is the “overriding” service to offer, the questions become, how, when, where and to whom can we disseminate Their Information. That is what we would continue to seek answers from the Minds to do.

I feel I know that they are on spacecrafts now but they have ways of receiving communications from our strong heart felt thoughts that are actually a band width of radio waves that the Next Level hasn’t taught humans how to identify and use, I presume so humans couldn’t interfere with the Next Level’s communications with humans and humans’ communications with them. (Jesus gave instruction to project one’s asking for service (Your will be done on earth) into the “heavens” – the elevated areas where the stars are). TI and DO said that projecting one’s asking into the Stars is a type of safeguard from the Space Aliens (in the ancient records speaking of Lucifer and his crew members, aka Fallen Angels) from picking up certain communications and then pretending to give that person an answer, which they love to try to do and that’s part of why certain people will say they asked “God” this and that and the so called “God” gave them an answer and that’s why they told their flock to think and do certain things that can even involve harming others in various ways. Sure it’s a “god” but not from the One True Evolutionary Kingdom Level Above Human who created the earth and all it’s life forms. Humans that still have some Next Level (Creators Mind, behaviors and ways) in them know better than to just go along with what someone tells them to do. They know better. The Next Level allows those “Lower forces” to be on the planet so to provide their influence on us so that we can recognize it better and better and reject it and grow beyond it, though that can be hard because most of the people on the world may not have much Next Level Mind in them so those that do become outcasts in various ways.

I believe DO said They have computer systems that can read humans as dots of light on a screen and when a human is seeking the truth about something and/or thirsting for new information and understanding and to solve certain problems like a cure for cancer, the Next Level Members are alerted to that desire as that light gets brighter and then they have procedures of seeing exactly what that human is asking for and determining whether they have procedures for answering their questions and if they don’t, then checking with Overseers of the task who then if need be would check with DO (in this example) and if need be DO would check with TI and if need be TI with TI’s Older Member on up to the Chief of Chiefs.

When TI and DO were both present we didn’t ask the direct questions to the Next Level, but that didn’t mean we couldn’t ask for strength and say the bombardment from the lower forces was too much, could ask the Next Level for help in that regard, to seek out a breather, so to speak from that bombardment, which the Next Level would give us, though the ideal would be to not need breathers and learn how to fend off the attacks of negativity and doubt.

Well after TI left, DO gave us the option to ask TI direct questions and to report to him if we felt we received an answer. When I tried it, I felt like I got an answer and reported it to DO and he said, “sounds like something TI might say” because he knew TI’s Mind quite well, though one can never be sure they “know” what their Older Member would for sure say.

Thus it often takes time to feel like one has the go ahead or the clarity to a question. When they would ask their Older Members a question, sometimes they wouldn’t get an answer and they felt that was because it wasn’t time for it, or they didn’t ask the right question so they would either put it on the back burner or think about the question.

It took many years for DO to feel like he understood a lot more about what a Soul was. They knew early on that it was a deposit and had physicality to it and that not every human was deposited with one. Later on DO realized that it had a “plasma like” physicality to it. At first DO called it a “pillow case” and/or a “pocket”. Later he liked to refer to it as a “container” which brings up how we get answers.

Answers are never absolute when the Older Member is not incarnate with us. In a sense they are never absolute but work for the time being in the circumstances in which they are given but it’s the nature of the Older Members to seek their Older Members current instruction and implement it and report to see if there would be updates to the implementation.

For instance, at first TI and DO felt it was their instruction that anyone who wanted to follow with them literally had to leave all behind to include family and friends. Those family and/or friends could also choose to follow but if they did they would cease having that previous relationship whatever it was. That last part never changed. But you can hear in audio tape 149 that TI says the leaving all behind wasn’t meant for humans. It was meant for those who recognized them and the task and wanted to give their all to being students of TI and DO who were incarnate. So all others were in a different category because they weren’t going to be with the Older Members physically to get instructions from directly so leaving all behind didn’t apply to them, though if they did their best with their lessons that all humans receive then they would at some point be faced with leaving all behind for the Kingdom of Heaven’s sake.

But the answer to what a soul was, developed. They talked about pulling in the parts to any answer. That can be heard in audio tape 25 – The Jail, to where they provide “new information”. They said they felt like they understood about 50% of that new information and said if we understood 50% of what they gave us, we’d be doing good.

But as to how the answers come, the Soul understanding demonstrates one way as I believe DO first heard the “container” description of the Soul from Bob Lazar’s report that Bob said he read in the “yellow book” that was allegedly written by a space alien race the government had some interface with. It talked about the human body being a container and that the soul was a container within a container. I may have some of that mixed up as to what DO realized was a Next Level perspective on the soul. It’s not that he just believed what he read in the Lazar report – it made sense to him – it seemed like it sounded like from his Older Member TI’s Mind. It jived with other aspects of the subject. So yes, there was a type of cross checking both TI and DO did regularly when they felt they were getting updates to give to their Class.

Another example of TI and DO feeling they received new information (answers) was when they told us all humans didn’t have souls and then less than a month later told us that wasn’t entirely accurate so to forget about it and then later DO got updates that there were different types of Soul Deposits. They also at first thought Souls were only deposited into infants of vehicles that Next Level student souls would be taking over to perform their tasks through. One can see in DO’s Final Exit that the Next Level could give a Soul deposit to anyone at any time and it could be because they simply showed curiosity in the information from them.

Another example was when they told us that Influences were discarnates – deceased human spirits and then sometime, even a few years later said that wasn’t 100% accurate, “but it worked” to think of it that way. DO later knew that there were other forms of Influences on us instead of just discarnates. He knew there were thought forms as well and knew that the Space Aliens were Souls who had been developing and growing hybrid vehicles by mixing their seed with humans which we heard was happening in many abduction cases.

But yes, the “Feeler” is the way TI and DO first spoke of seeking the will of the Next Level for us in day to day life. Our first implementation of growing that process that I believe all humans can have a sense of using, perhaps call it intuition, though of course the question arises as to who or what is providing that intuition – the lower forces or the Next Level Above Human. So, yes, TI and DO used one another the entire time they were together physically incarnate to “check” with the other as to what they were “feeling” to proceed on, in their case in any and all directions they would choose to “pull on” – another phrase TI and DO used for seeking the Next Level’s will for them. We have all TI and DO’s writings, audios and video’s now as guidelines to how they thought and behaved and what the goals are to qualify to be the recipient of continued Next Level training opportunities. Like they said in the Heaven’s Gate Book the same Classroom they started doesn’t apply to the current stage in being their student. That’s not to say one wouldn’t please TI and DO by trying to adhere to all the requirements they listed to join that classroom.

Using our Feeler is simple. Just ask the Next Level for their help and guidance in any choice and then proceed a step in the direction that feels right at the time and if at any point it does not feel right then put on hold or stop that direction and/or change course and proceed to ask and see how it feels. The way we first learned to implement this feeler development was when traveling and looking for a location to hold a meeting, looking for help with our needs of food, gasoline and sometimes shelter and/or for help with the printing of posters for meetings but most of all to be led to anyone in a town that might be looking for help to learn more about the Next Level. The Next Level will give you a sense of what you ask about. This can become a normal way in which to go about one’s life.

Identifying TI and DO’s Great Minds

The question below was one in a number of questions I recently received that amounted to, in my mind reasons to better attempt to provide examples of TI and DO’s Great and Powerful Minds. I was asked if they performed any miracles to which there might have been some but nothing that’s clearly in that category among what the record books called miracles. TI and DO said that when graduation is possible no miracles are given because would be students need to develop their Minds so that they recognize the greatest miracle that could be had, in the fact that Two Older Members of the Next Level both came in the flesh and were among us, awakened since the early 1970’s and that of course included what I believe DO said in the Beyond Human series was the miracle in his Older Member TI coming with him to assist him with the early part of his task. If I recall correctly, DO also said he felt some 90% of the miracles attributed to Jesus were exaggerated.

So here is the last question I received:

Question: Is there an audio tape where Ti goes into detail about her purpose with the class in a detailed way?

Sawyer:

The only thing I can recall is where DO said TI had said to him early on, like 1972 or 1973, that, “I’m hear to get you started and then I’m going back”. DO said when she would say that, he didn’t know what she meant by “going back”. He couldn’t imagine she meant, going back to her human family. Then when she left her vehicle in 1985 he knew what she meant by that – she was going back to the Next Level to help DO finish that task it was his responsibility, by his choices to fulfill.

Since DO told us in a meeting (that TI wasn’t a part of) that the Revelation 12 “Woman” was referring to TI, when I examined that chapter and compared it with all that happened, knowing that TI left her vehicle, that at first didn’t seem to be in the plan, but as they said the plan was in development from day one and could have gone in several directions according to what the Next Level would choose to do after observing the choices of the students.

But I then saw that it was an option in the plan shown in several verses (even all of Rev 12 which corresponds to all of Rev 11 and more):

In this symbolism, the serpent is derived from the action “to look”, which to me sounds awfully close to the way Enoch described the watchers who were the fallen angels, thus the space aliens who had gone against the Next Level and because of doing so the Next Level decided to use them to be like a fertilizer for new souls to grow from dealing with. This is the general term for those individuals who were in that role by their own choices. The term Dragon is referred to as Lucifer himself according to DO. So using the term Serpent seems to refer to all of those who fell. In that same chapter satan is used to show that fertilizer as it means, “adversary”. And also devil is used which means “deceiver”, though shrewd and cunning, sharp.

Here are the two prime verses but I have made a video about the entire chapter on my youtube channel: 3spm:

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

This is an expression used even long before this was written: “earth opened her mouth” which meant someone goes to their grave.

DO also said in 1985 that TI’s vehicles death was because of how great was the negativity of her task, virtually having most everyone against her. That is understood as I too have experienced a tiny bit of and often can’t climb out of easily.

In other words TI being DO’s Older Member meant that every negative force, through thoughts was ultimately aimed at TI, because as they are aimed at DO, they are also aimed at TI. That’s the way it works. TI had to run away the negative influences that attacked DO. And DO had to run away the negative influences that attacked him. And students need to learn to run away the negative influences aimed at them and that goes for all humans who as a part of this existence have to learn to run away the Influences that threaten them.

Examples of this process. Let’s say someone chooses to not live by another’s wishes for them. Say it’s a parent or guardian’s wishes. As long as that person is sending those thoughts to someone whether seen/heard or unseen/unheard by ears, the person that is on the receiving end can be effected according to their own strength of mind in the relationship they once had.

Then let’s say someone does things to piss others off. They are accumulating negativity. It’s part of how karma works.

Say someone runs for political office or seeks to get a job as a manager, though there could be people in their employ that love them, there will always be some who could become jealous of them and/or in competition with them, and/or wanting to see them fail and they become generators of negative thoughts the receiver has to learn to field or be dragged down in the dumps on occasion or even often.

The same happens with anyone who is in the public eye. There are always some who just see that person in a negative light.

Now there is some protection when no one knows where they actually live and/or they wear a disguise in public and/or just don’t go out much if at all. However, it becomes a mechanism to build strength of Mind.

When people look down on others, judge them as doing something wrong that also adds negativity to the fire.

When we ask for help from the Next Level Above Human, however we think of them, with any or all of these kinds of bombardments, the Next Level will help and can even reduce what influences can do. Different areas of the world and different states and cities can have varied amount and strength of these discarnate Influences and/or thought forms.

So TI and DO, considering how they angered many people because they were depicted as evil in the mainstream media for years amplified the negativity against them, mostly manifest in unseen ways but very real all the same. I believe that’s described in that verse above as a “flood”.

Also elevated areas I believe have less of some influences and lower elevated areas more influences.

People with very closed minds and/or who are focused on making money, money, money and other human aspirations and being very judgemental of others also adds to bombardment of whoever is in their firing line.

If the Next Level Above Human didn’t help regulate that bombardment and give us breathers we’d all be overwhelmed with that bombardment. This is part of the reason so many need to be on meds, sometimes meds to sleep and meds to wake up.

Parents and other loved one’s of the ones who joined with TI and DO also became a big source of that negativity.

When we recognize this happening in our heads we can learn to put a label on the thoughts we grow to know are causing this negativity and learn to block them out faster and more thoroughly instead of going on a downer or attempting to run to substances to help us cope with. Lets say one hears a thought that they are worthless because they don’t have enough friends, one could say, Influence of seeing myself in a negative light, get out of here. Put up a blank cue card to that thought and then don’t wait to see if the Influence went away, and put your mind on something else and block it as often as one has to.

TI and DO were so good at this, they could remain very positive about all they were faced with, often times not even threatened at all by the Influences they knew were trying to knock on the door of their Mind.

This is one of huge ways TI and DO demonstrated enormous power and I feel I recognized that power in them without knowing hardly any of the specifics until I saw using the techniques against those Influences that bombarded me and it worked.

It’s not meant that we don’t have any of this bombardment. In fact it increases because for those who seek to fight it off, they are actually increasing the strength of their minds to combat it.

Like TI and DO said, we are not responsible for the thoughts that attack us, but we are responsible for the thoughts we allow to remain with us and that we might even grow.

In this way, one can understand better why so much about society is going downhill. Take for example the way mass shootings seem to for periods of time, like in waves can be happening even everyday, in the U.S. and perhaps other places. That can be evidence of angry people who didn’t learn to combat their anger issues and instead began to justify their anger and even feel like they had to act out that anger even knowing they were doing something evil. They could have seemed to be okay people but we didn’t see what thoughts they were allowing themselves to entertain until they became brainwashed by those thoughts and then even acting them out.

For a long, long time the Next Level Members being incarnate (Older Members, TI and DO and younger members (elder students) and younger students) were by their own self discipline were depositing thoughts of positivity because as DO said, there is no lab for negativity in the Next Level. The human kingdom is where negativity is allowed to exist via the presence of the space alien souls who were the fallen angels in the ancient records to saturated the planet with their agenda against the Next Level in various ways that even entailed distorting and diluting all the previous teachings from the Next Level as seen in parts in the religions.

Since a religion is really a “belief system”, even the beliefs in “science” and/or called atheism though a good step away from religions all become something to grow through seeing in an absolute fashion.

I recall TI and DO saying that if they became aware of someone providing information that they felt was showing them something they didn’t know about that rang true and of course was something they wanted to know more about, they would stay with seeking what that person knew until it didn’t offer them anything new.

TI and DO would say, “We know what we know and we know what we don’t know and we know where to go to learn what we don’t know”

I hope I quoted that correctly from my memory but think it’s in the ballpark.

TI and DO knew there were many things happening on the planet that they were even the ones to limit them from understanding so they could focus on the task they were given to bring a group of student to their graduation. That graduation is not over but it has taken a new focus and we need these human vehicles to gain and operate on that focus. How? By seeking to learn all there is to learn from what TI and DO left behind for us. When we draw in Their Minds by learning and seeking to apply all they taught, in degrees we will find it’s hard to not tell others what we are discovering and learning.

We will want to be of service to TI and DO and if we ask Them for that service, they will be made aware of our asking and will respond to each of us in what is the best way for us to receive and recognize and feel even more motivated to continue because of. This becomes a type of proof as does all the ways we choose to exercise self discipline over our vehicles. Anyone who doesn’t seek to grow in this way won’t see what we experience as proof unless they trek down the equivalent pathway and have their own experience with it.

This is why Jwnody wrote in the document in the Heaven’s Gate Book, entitled, “Away Team From Deep Space Surfaces Before Departure” that all Souls who had any significant relationship with Older Member(s) from the Next Level in the past were back now and are being given the opportunity to grow to their next best station by “getting our information out” and by learning and to some degree putting the “Formula” of separating from our humanness into affect in the many applications and knowing that we recognize TI and DO as from the Creators of the earth and it’s life forms Kingdom and being willing to “Stand in Defense of that Belief” and maintain that Stand regardless of the consequences until we each leave our human vehicle (however that occurs).

Critique of Rolling Stone Interview from Randall Bell’s Visits to the Heaven’s Gate Rancho Sante Fe Mansion

I heard this story on NPR or perhaps it was a BBC broadcast re-broadcast on NPR. It stems from an article published in the Rolling Stone Magazine entitled:

Meet the Real Estate Appraiser of the World’s Most Gruesome Murder Sites

(The link to the article is posted at the end of this post. However, I separated out the parts that had to do with this person Randall having visited the Rancho Sante Fe mansion where the Group Members layed down their human vehicles. The story is from an interview with Randall Bell as follows to start my critique of the Heaven’s Gate part of story:

“Rolling Stone caught up with Bell to discuss Satanic worshipers, the creepiest part about the Heaven’s Gate mansion, and what, exactly, makes the Jeffrey Dahmer property so special.

Is it just the stigma or is there actual damage done to the house that reduces its value?
That’s a great question, because with the Heaven’s Gate mansion there was a lot of physical damage because — I don’t want to be graphic or anything, but —

You’re welcome to be as graphic as you want.

Oh, OK, then I’ll be really graphic. By the way, I don’t have any morbid curiosity. I don’t want to see bodies or crime scene photos, I’m not into that. With Heaven’s Gate, I waited till after they finished taking out the bodies. But when I went in, I just wanted to barf because it smelled so bad. There had been bodies decomposing for three days, and there was blood all over the place — blood on the carpet and the marble, all throughout the house.

Why blood? Didn’t they take phenobarbital?

Yeah. The reason why — they call their bodies vehicles, and when you have a decomposing vehicle for three days, when the bodies are picked up and put on gurneys, the vehicles leak. That’s the way I guess I could put it. So it was odd, but there was blood coming out from various orifices, and it smelled so bad. So we actually got a biohazard company to come in and test the porous surfaces, the vents and the carpet and the drapes. There was biological contamination and all that stuff had to be ripped out.”

Sawyer:

We have the pictures of the authorities loading bodies with white sheets wrapped around them and no hint of blood. We have the coroner reports that said it was very peaceful there on the 26th when they went in. I don’t know when their bodies were put in body bags but I suppose there could have been some leakage in each bed or mattress or foam pad each body was on. When a body dies if one is on it’s back, then the fluids settle along the back but if the heart isn’t pumping what would cause the blood vessels to leak. I suppose some may say the phenobarbital could have caused blood capillaries to rupture. I don’t know but I wonder if Randall is exaggerating, even by saying;

“…it was odd, but there was blood coming out from various orifices…”.

Like, why was it odd if that’s normal due to a body lying decomposing for 24 to at most 36 hours? It doesn’t bother me in the least if there was blood all over the house as he says as they were human bodies that died. It’s just par for the course for people to make of it much more than it was and especially someone who makes it his business to go to murder and suicide sites and then make his living having to do with those properties and what happened at those locations.

I remember in the Inside Edition show I was a part of where they quoted me out of context. The interviewer came to my house in Vermont from NYC area and we sat down to talk on camera and when I told the story of how DO had gone to jail for keeping a rental car longer than contracted, that got reported and resulted in his arrest, that when he had served 6 months before it was to come to trial, though the charges were dropped as soon as the rental car company got their car back, the DA finally came to him with a plea deal. He could plead guilty and get a 4 month sentence or take it to trial. He took the deal to get out of jail with time served and joked that they owed him 2 months. However, as part of the deal, considering that TI and DO talked about who they knew themselves to be, Souls from outer space, having taken over those human vehicles to perform a task, etc. the DA liked adding that to his resume for his reelection campaign. So with the plea the DA required him to undergo a psychological evaluation before being released, which he passed with flying colors, yet in his mind (at that time) not a day had gone by that he didn’t question his own sanity. When I told the Inside Edition interviewer that last statement, he had me repeat it and then repeat it again wanting to get it down to a sound byte and then publishing that DO thought he was insane which wasn’t the case. So I was trapped and not keen enough to stop giving him that sound byte.

But in that Inside Edition show, at one point they had someone walking through the house and he pointed out a large spot where they said 4 members of the group had died on the floor and the impression I got was that they all died in that spot which would have been impossible since they all died in a bed and four beds could not have fit on the one spot the size of half a bed at most. Perhaps that was Randall who I saw used in that broadcast. If that wasn’t him Randall seems to be of the same ilk, exaggerating because he knows many people like to hear the gore talk.

Interview of Randall continues:

Can you tell me about the properties you’ve looked at with paranormal activity? I know you said you didn’t believe in that, but I know you’ve been called to appraise those properties.

“I haven’t see any ghosts. I’ve seen some weird things, but I haven’t seen ghosts. I’ll tell ya one interesting story about Heaven’s Gate: the owner of the property put me in charge of everything basically, and I took the media through the house on a tour, and every single person I took through the property, I would take them through the house and we saw where the bunk beds were, and at the end of every single tour I said, “What’d you think? Were you OK with that?” Because a lot of people were nervous or creeped out about the whole thing. And I swear to you every single person said the same thing: “Oh, I was fine with it, except for this one room where I felt creepy.” And everyone identified the same room. I kept that to myself, but the room everyone was referring to was a room where there were four bodies, two bunk beds with four bodies. There was no blood in the room, there was nothing — you gotta understand, there were 39 bodies in the house, so there were bodies in every single room, so there wasn’t anything special about that particular room, but everyone said that who I took through the house.””I haven’t see any ghosts. I’ve seen some weird things, but I haven’t seen ghosts. I’ll tell ya one interesting story about Heaven’s Gate: the owner of the property put me in charge of everything basically, and I took the media through the house on a tour, and every single person I took through the property, I would take them through the house and we saw where the bunk beds were, and at the end of every single tour I said, “What’d you think? Were you OK with that?” Because a lot of people were nervous or creeped out about the whole thing. And I swear to you every single person said the same thing: “Oh, I was fine with it, except for this one room where I felt creepy.” And everyone identified the same room. I kept that to myself, but the room everyone was referring to was a room where there were four bodies, two bunk beds with four bodies. There was no blood in the room, there was nothing — you gotta understand, there were 39 bodies in the house, so there were bodies in every single room, so there wasn’t anything special about that particular room, but everyone said that who I took through the house.”

Sawyer:

First he says there was blood in every room of the house and then he says there was no blood in this one room. More evidence that this person is exaggerating and may be lying as well to make a bigger media spectacle. No doubt he charges for the tours he gave to the media. He attended a party at the Mansion some time after the event there and he brought his daughter with him to the party. He said it was outdoors mostly and was nice because they had a nice pool his daughter liked to swim in and the owner Sam’s kids were also there at the party. So to him this is entertainment and business, likely hired by Sam.

What are the properties you get asked about the most?

The strangest case was Heaven’s Gate. It was just so bizarre on so many levels. I was really fascinated by the brainwashing techniques that [Heaven’s Gate leader] Do used, and the way he rigged the house to control his followers was generally not known in the media, but it was bizarre. There was a whole process — he would entice people who were actually very bright, who were academically smart people, with a new, magical world kind of pitch. Once he had them in the house, he controlled all the thinking. In fact, I was walking through the house with a reporter, and everything in the house was labeled. I’m not exaggerating: every light switch, every drawer, every cupboard, every shelf, every jar, every single thing you saw was labeled. And she said, “That was because he was trying to eliminate the need to think for himself about anything.” Even the most mundane detail, the thinking was already done.

The other thing he did: literally there were wires going through the chimney. There were wires everywhere. It was fanatically wired. Every square inch of that house was bugged. You could not go anywhere and have a private conversation. I remember the phones — they had these folding tables, like phone banks, and every phone was rigged, so if you were on the phone somebody was listening in on your conversation. He eliminated any private moments or any ability to think for yourself or reason to think for yourself. Nobody slept in the room by themselves. Nobody went to the bathroom by themselves. Through this process, people who were otherwise intelligent were believing the craziest stuff they’ve ever heard. And that’s how he did it.”

Sawyer:

Randall has expressed his observations of the house well after they exited and gives his opinions about what he saw. I will provide from 19 years of experience in the group and from listening to tapes after I left in 1994 and with the testimony of two other former students why Randall is mostly misconstruing what he observed and misinterpreting why they did what they did grossly exaggerating what he did observe and attaching his uneducated opinion to it.

I broke down his observations and conclusions to follow and will address each one:

1) Randall says DO was using “Brainwashing techniques”.

Sawyer:

It’s interesting that none of what Randall says he observed would necessarily constitute proof of any “brainwashing”. Many media groups can actually be proven to have brainwashed much of the public by using the known brainwashing technique of constantly bombarding people with their own slant on the Information and teachings from TI and DO. Hardly any like to report why there were rules, what the group called procedures. Plus next to no one even quotes the few psychologists who said things that didn’t automatically put DO and Crew among the ranks of Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson and many others. I have given at least a dozen 3+ hour interviews and next to no one seems to think there is a value to including much of what I say because what I say doesn’t confirm the narrative they want to sell to the public, while what I say hides nothing because there is nothing to hide. Of course it was a traumatic event that media groups don’t want to appear to their constituents as supportive of, but because of that they fear reporting the facts except what they can spin to be the juiciest parts. It’s a sad state of affairs and this article puts some icing on that dis/mis-information “cake”. It’s easy to make a case that much of the American public is systematically brainwashed by the repetition of lies and deceit and half truths and we all should know that repetition is the biggest method to convince someone of any point of view. Yet TI and DO knew this but had no methods of doing so and in fact did the opposite and kept changing their understanding and not at all fearing losing students who found objection with their doing that though it can be shown that TI and DO never changed things for the novelty of doing so, nor to confuse anyone, nor to justify things they said before that may not have played out in exactly the ways they first thought they might. I know some students found fault with them for that reason among many others which is why the dropout rate was large.

For instance if repetition was a technique as Randall calls it, then how come students weren’t forced to listen to their tapes over and over and over. They actually wanted students to listen to them over and over but over 19 years I believe there weren’t more than 3-4 times that TI and DO gave us instruction to re-listen to one of their meeting tapes. People who are ignorant about what and why and how TI and DO presented their information are often some of the ones who make the biggest erroneous claims and yet get the most airplay because again, this is an easy story to continue to play on for the appearance of seeing it for what it really was, ignoring what the facts say it was. And by “facts” I’m not expecting people to “believe” in what TI and DO and Crew believed. Those are understandably not the “facts” I’m talking about. I will present many of the facts in response to each point made by Randall and show why what he reports, though sometimes accurate, doesn’t add up to the brainwashing techniques he claims and are actually his misunderstanding and misinterpreting what they did and why.

2) Randall claims DO “Rigged the house to control his followers”

Sawyer:

This is completely false. No I wasn’t in that Rancho Sante Fe house but all Randall’s examples of the so called way in which he claims DO “rigged the house” is full of holes. I will address them as they come up to follow.

3) Randall claims DO “…would entice people who were very bright? Academically smart people with a new magical world kind of pitch”.

Sawyer:

Just look at the language Randall uses as Judge, jury and executioner. For example, one of the thoughts TI and DO talked about from the start was that some of what people and governments were having experience with labeled, “UFO’s” were actually nothing more than “transportation” for the physical members of the Next Level Above Human who had physical bodies they wear like suits, the way a human will put on an astronaut suit to travel in space or a diving suit to go underwater.

Maybe Randall thinks about the subject of UFO’s as “magical” but I for one, when I saw the first poster used to advertise for the public meetings we were giving in 1975 and 1976 had a headline of UFO’s in large lettering. That abbreviation meant nothing to me at the time yet something about what they said in that poster and in the subsequent meeting I attended in Waldport, Oregon made sense to me. In fact, if one reads their material and listens to audio tapes you will have a hard time seeing anything they talked about as “magical” as if a parlor trick of thinking. Contrary to what TI and DO often said, they referred to things done with the spirit world “tricks,” like reading minds and past life regressions and purporting of gemstones through the palm of one’s hands or “channeling” or certain types of faith healings. They weren’t saying that people couldn’t do all these things but they simply weren’t things the Members of the Next Level Above Human would do. Even including miracles like what Jesus was said to have done, they said were “90% exaggerated”. TI and DO were actually quite scientific and un-mystical or magical.

When Hayden Hewe’s, in the book he and Brad Steiger published entitled, “UFO Missionaries Extraordinary,” that was mostly from the interviews they and Dan Garcia had with TI and DO in 1974 and 1976, wrote about his experience with TI and DO when they left the location of the 1974 interview, where he said, “they vanished,” TI and DO joked that they had just walked away.

Plus in that same book, TI and DO are recorded to have told a woman who had children that since she was unsure she should not join them and that she could possibly join them at another time in the future during another “season”.

What I’m saying was there was no “pitch” as there was no recruiting the way most people think of recruiting. There certainly have been many religious oriented groups who were actively recruiting. The Moonies tried to recruit me in 1976 by offering me a meal and I had to attend a talk before I’d get the meal. So did a disciple of Sri Chin Moy try to attract me to their group. Also the Maharishi Mehesh Yogi had an ongoing recruitment program in NYC that I didn’t want to join because they required I stop smoking pot and I didn’t want to quit. Plus the Sufi’s tried to recruit me in 1975. What TI and DO did was put up posters, perhaps announce in some media that they were having a meeting. When people came to the meeting, TI and DO would say to the crowd, if this speaks to you or you have more questions stay after the meeting and some students will help you with them. Then if they wanted to join they had to meet us at the next city we were planning to travel to, to have another meeting and they had to do so on their own steam. I was given a campground to travel to at the Colorado National Monument near Fruita, Colorado, coming from Waldport, OR. I got that instruction by going to Eugene where two students had a table set up in the middle of a field that I went up to and when I did was given the park near Fruita to travel to.

When I was overseer of a public meeting group in 1994 (after having no public meetings for nearly 17 years) in Chicago at the University, where I was also a speaker with several other students, two in the audience stayed after the meeting and spoke to Chkody and I (as overseers). I told them about our current lifestyle as we had run out of our own money so we were asking for help with food from various restaurants and sometimes fast food restaurants and eating whatever we were given if it wasn’t trash. These two said to us that they couldn’t join as they were strict vegans.

Chkody wasn’t sure that was right to turn them away but then checked with DO and I was never corrected as having turned away someone inappropriately though in my own opinion I think I should have consulted with Chkody further than I did and even checked with DO since we had cell phones then for that purpose. Mind you, I had no personal interest in having new members, though nor did I want to turn someone away who clearly felt they wanted to join us. However the way I thought at the time, was if they weren’t willing to change their diet, they were not going to work as fellow crewmembers, though I respected their desire to eat a vegan diet and that was actually closer to the kind of diet we had at the time before we went public and the funds dried up.

These are not unusual stories. In fact there were 19 separated from the larger group in Wyoming in 1976 that TI told those of us who remained with them, “didn’t make the first cut”. Plus from about June of 1976 to 1994 there were no public meetings and the only ones who joined were 99% those who had joined in 1975 and 1976 but were sent out of the Group or chose to leave, which happened all the time.

TI and DO never wanted large numbers as they worked hard with each student and yet we students didn’t even know they were working hard to help us. No one will be able to see this unless they are willing to dive into listening to the audio tapes they left behind that demonstrate what they expected and yet only wanted each of us to seek through constant exercise of our own free will.

Once a year they required us to think about whether we wanted to leave or not. In around 1990 DO offered each of us $2000 to leave because staying became very easy as we lived in a tight knit commune that was a lot easier than living in the “real world” outside the group where each person has to worry about paying their own bills, etc. If some in the Group lost their jobs, others could take up the slack to still pay the bills and that did happen. So DO didn’t want that to be the reason someone stayed. DO wanted to see a continuous effort from each student to learn all they could about making applications to become crew members on a Next Level spacecraft. TI and DO’s standards were very high to that end and they used as a learning ground all the things we each needed to do to pull our weight in a crew minded way and it was tough but again, I didn’t know how tough it was because I was choosing not to conquer some of the behaviors and ways that were not compatible with Next Level Members. I thought I was doing a good job and I was fooling myself and that led to my leaving of my own free will. Even those who were sent out in 1976 and Mark and Sarah who were sent out in 1987 left of their own free will because they didn’t want to follow all the procedures. But each of them were given the choice to return, though some didn’t want to stay in touch so lost touch while others did return or were given some chances to serve in some capacity after they left, which is what happened with Mark and Sarah, known in the group as Mrcody and Srfody.

4) Randall claims “Once he had them in the house he controlled all the thinking.”

Sawyer:

This is ridiculous. How does one literally control one’s thinking as if DO caught someone and then chained them in the house or lured them with some kind of mental “carrot”. This person has no concept of how easy it is for some leaders in society to keep people under their control and it was the opposite in the Heaven’s Gate Group. The doors were never locked from the outside so anyone could leave and some did leave in the middle of the night so not to face TI and DO or Classmates, not that anyone would have tried to talk them out of leaving if that’s what they truly wanted to do. To the contrary, TI and DO didn’t want anyone there who didn’t 100% want to be there. They weren’t at all like all these religious groups and the armed forces that force their members to find new members, to convert others or to play out their enlistment period they signed up for.

However, if we wanted to stay in TI and DO’s program then we needed to learn to control our own thinking. That’s the only context to “washing one’s brain” which is the true meaning of “baptism” to clean out one’s old ways of thinking and replace it with the thinking from Members of the Next Level who have no human interests. But this was all on the honor system. It was hard to hide one’s real thoughts while in the group. As soon as someone showed signs of not wanting to be there, they were given help to leave. That’s what I can testify to. I was given $600 and an airplane ticket to Phoenix from L.A. and a ride to the airport the day after I decided to leave.

5) Randall claims “everything in the house was labeled. Every light switch, every drawer, every cupboard, every shelf, every jar, every single thing you saw was labeled.”

Sawyer:

While I was in the group we often labeled light switches. That was because there were some lights they wanted to be kept on, inside or outside so they wanted people to know what they did. There was a crew assigned to change the lights for daytime or nighttime. This way, a new member of that crew wouldn’t have to guess what lights did what. Plus when one has lots of procedures, it can easily be something someone may balk at doing and if they balked maybe that was another sign they weren’t happy and were encouraged to either conquer that vibe or leave. Rkkody didn’t like to be restricted. We did at times have procedures of who could go outside the house and when and for how long. Like we had a procedure to take daily walks outside or to use the tennis court or to swim in the pool in one Arizona mansion I lived in with the group. While others were on the crew to take care of the plants and lawn if there was one and to clean the pool if there was one and put the garbage out. But part of the procedure is to stay with one’s “check partner” which was yet another test of whether or not one wanted to be there. I’ll talk more on this later.

For the cupboards that was strictly organizational. The kitchen was treated as a laboratory would exist on a Next Level SpaceCraft and it was important that any member of the crew knew where tools were and where to put them back when they are cleaned, so labeling is the most efficient way of doing that, especially when there are new crew members serving in that “lab”. All this was to also test whether we really wanted to act in a crew minded way and for some it challenged their being cooperative. For me, I enjoyed all the procedures. Some would question whether they were always as efficient as they could be and TI and DO addressed that they weren’t trying to be most efficient but were doing things based on what they felt their unseen Older Members would give them to choose. I know that sounds far-fetched for some but that’s because some people have arrived at knowing there are discarnate spirits all around us with some who become attached to us, to even help us. So a big part of the program was to learn to recognize when a discarnate or thought form wasn’t from their Older Members Mind and if it’s not then get rid of it (if one wanted) and that was not an easy chore at times because we often don’t even know when a discarnate is behind some of our thoughts. But one can learn about their reality by putting into effect the teaching TI and DO provided. One can recognize that no matter what thoughts we have, if it’s negative, it’s not from the Next Level, so one needs to get rid of it OR not and choose to leave the classroom as they only wanted those few who wanted to go the distance of controlling their own thoughts as there was no mechanism besides the honor system to know if someone was thinking against what TI and DO were teaching, though it seemed eventually it would surface.

Jars of spices, etc. needed to be labeled so that someone wouldn’t use the wrong ingredient in a recipe. These things are not at all evidence of brainwashing. If that was the case then every professional kitchen in the U.S. could be accused of brainwashing.

6) Randall quotes a reporter he was with in the house who says:

“That was because he was trying to eliminate the need to think for yourself about anything.” Then saying “Even the most mundane detail, the thinking was already done”.

Sawyer:

Yes we had many procedures but it would be very easy to prove by the many audio tapes and by my testimony of many examples that 99% of the thinking was not done for us. Even with procedures there was often a new context in which to apply them or not or partially. We had a procedure to not use any more toothpaste than needed, not needing to cover all the bristles with toothpaste but they didn’t spell out exactly how much to use and despite what Randall says here, most bathroom time was alone time. The only exception was when two people would be scheduled to use the bath chamber during the same 12 minute period. Then we either had a divider between the shower side and the lavatory side or we’d put up a sheet to separate the shower side from the lavatory side and one was on the honor system to not try to peek at the other when they took their clothing off to take a shower. No one showered with one another, nor used the commode together, nor used the lavatory together. During the lavatory side time, one would brush their teeth or shave (if they were a male with beard growth). Using the commode for number two, what we called “solid elimination” was not a procedure during the bath time when two could be in that bath chamber.

But toothpaste amount and shampoo amount had procedures out of respect of all the supplies we needed to make them last as long as possible without affecting the best outcome. Also water usage was encouraged to be minimal so we’d take a shower by first getting wet and then turning off the shower while soaping up and then turning it on when rinsing. Some of that thinking came about when like 30 or more of us were living in a zoned single family house in some suburb like Denver so our water usage wouldn’t stand out as being a flag that more people were living there than was allowed.

Not only was thinking done for us, it was just the opposite, we were expected to be exceptionally thoughtful and conscious about everything we did. When we took steps not to be loud. When we open and close cabinets, do so quietly. When speaking, do so quietly so as not to disturb others. These things and many, many others required more thought than one might find in the human kingdom because one had to keep those ideas on the top of their mind. So Classmembers were quite mindful.

And by the way, there wasn’t any punishment for not following these procedures but we did have a self reporting mechanism to expose our “slippages” in these and other regards and if someone was increasingly not abiding by these procedures it was yet another sign they weren’t happy being in that Classroom. There weren’t any individuals in the Class that weren’t capable with learning to abide by all the procedures. It was always a constant choice.

7) Randall claims DO had “…wires going through the chimney. There were wires everywhere. It was fanatically wired. Every square inch of that house was bugged. You could not go anywhere and have a private conversation.”

Sawyer:

That is also ridiculous while at the same time if that was the case then if one had a problem with it, just leave. I had no problem with procedures that could be seen as having no privacy. For instance in the 1980’s TI instigated a program where two students that would rotate among all the students were assigned to be “eyes”. The duty of those assigned to be “eyes” for an hour shift was to record anything anyone in their view did or didn’t do that was not according to procedures. So lets say someone was picking their nose with their finger. The procedure was to use a tissue to pick one’s own nose and to do so in the bath chamber preferably though not exclusively. Then Eyes would say nothing but they would write down exactly what they saw and who did it. No one else would read that log and that log would be sent directly to “links” (aka Lnks) – the joint name for TI and Do working together which came from the way they felt they were links in a chain of Mind/Spirit that went through every Member of the Next Level to their Older Members and then to the Chief of Chiefs who was the most experienced member and who we wouldn’t know more about where that person came from until we became a member of the Next Level because our brains aren’t capable of comprehending that information.

Sometimes Overseers were given the task to bring those things to an individual’s attention. Sometimes TI and DO would talk directly to a Classmember. Sometimes TI and DO would have something put in a procedure book about it and sometimes they would bring up some things in a group meeting.

8) Randall claims “…the phones — they had these folding tables, like phone banks, and every phone was rigged, so if you were on the phone somebody was listening in on your conversation.”

Sawyer:

Rigged? From the start when TI was present we had a procedure to have two people on the telephone at the same time whenever possible. That was because Members of the Next Level love to work with a check partner. It’s like partners in the police force – two minds are better than one kind of thing. How many times does one person get an instruction and find out that they heard it wrong. If someone in the Class didn’t want a check partner on the telephone with them then they shouldn’t be in the classroom. For instance when we called our vehicles family one would be silent on the other line listening to what the family member said and what the one making the call said. This way they could report to TI and DO what was said and not said so we could be helped or if in some cases the family member could be helped. It was also to protect against security leaks. We were being looked for by private investigators and even by the FBI sometimes over the years and yet we were all adults and had no children and wanted to be there so had a right to do what we wanted to do that wasn’t harming anyone or even ourselves. But sometimes someone might slip up and give a clue to what town we were in. We learned of a situation where one student when visiting families in 1985 and/or in 1987 when we had many visits scheduled told that student that another family member hired a private eye to find her and that he was in the same town as we were at one point and that we moved out of the house shortly before the private eye found the house. TI and DO didn’t want authorities to find us because we were no longer feeling part of that past family unit. We identified with our Next Level Family now. Many humans no longer identify with their human families who might be down on them for their choices, etc. They may stay in touch and so did we after a period of time in the beginning of weaning from their influence on us. We knew many could not understand what we were doing but to us we were doing exactly what we wanted to do, yet did hope our vehicles family could accept us. After TI left, DO instigated the second visit and about every year we made a call and/or in between sent a card letting them know we were okay and happy and doing what we wanted to do. That was done to relieve their anxiety about our absence from their lives which also would relieve any anxiety we feel from having that genetic yet very real connection with them. We also didn’t want to be in touch so often that those family members might hope to reestablish a relationship with us. That would have been cruel to do since all of us if our heads were in the place we wanted them to be knew we’d someday leave this planet, preferably with our human vehicles that were changed over into a Next Level vehicle or without our vehicle as the Soul only that would board TI’s spacecraft. We knew how strange that can sound to most humans but we knew and I still know such spacecrafts exist and that may be where some Souls in human vehicles might go after their vehicles die, by whatever way that happens. We know that we need our vehicles to learn lessons through and so hope to have this opportunity for as long as possible.

9) Randall claims “He eliminated any private moments or any ability to think for yourself or reason to think for yourself.”

Sawyer:

This is also ridiculous and totally uninformed as to the reality of the Group. Humans think they are thinking for themselves. What I’ve learned by many experiences is that we humans are possessed by discarnate spirits/minds from deceased humans who can only feel and express themselves by using a living human vehicle. They give us ideas of what to do with our lives. They give us ideas for inventions. They lead us to use substances to alleviate stresses. They would have us think we are the sole decider over everything we do when we are often under their influence all through life. When we have a negative thought it’s from some kind of influence, be it from our genetic programming from ancestors past or from the people who raised us and the society we were raised within, from what we chose from all that or from discarnates and/or from thought forms that we are bombarded upon us by the space aliens and by other humans.

Some are plagued with thoughts that they are worthless while others that they are great. Some are plagued with thoughts that they are too fat or too thin or incapable of succeeding in something or have no hope for a better life or that others are to blame with their shortcomings.

10) Randall claims “Nobody slept in the room by themselves.”

Sawyer:

That is likely because we generally had “rest chambers” where we often slept on bunk beds if we had them. However, there were times when we slept alone. For instance there was one time when I slept on a mattress in the hallway by myself. In that circumstance some who got up before I did, as we often had procedures to have different amounts of sleep, as little as 6 hours and as much as 8 hours. I remember DO came to me and told me that it had been reported that I let my hands go below my waist while sleeping and into the groin area. We had procedure to try to maintain control of the vehicle’s desire for sensuality that would apply even to down (sleep) time. I guess I wasn’t successful in instilling that program so I tried harder after that. DO wasn’t mad at me or angry with me. He didn’t threaten me in any way or want me to even be embarrassed yet I wanted to know if I did anything to break procedures so I was getting my wish to be told about this.

We generally had males sleep in a different rest chamber than females, even though at times there were some who were attracted to the same gendered vehicle as they occupied. DO was found by the coroner to be sleeping in a room by himself so there goes that “nobody… slept by themselves” statement.

11) Randall claims “Nobody went to the bathroom by themselves.”

Sawyer:

See my reply to point number 6 that describes how inaccurate that is in part. But it’s really the opposite. Using the BC (Bath chamber) was one of the only times we did something without our check partner.

But even that is not true. For instance for many months in Dallas and in Denver I would drive our white Cadillac with up to three other students in it, to deliver them to their OOC Tasks (Out Of Craft Tasks) – jobs in the world and then I would proceed to my OOC-T by myself and then after work would pick some up on the way back to the Craft (house). Plus during my lunch hour at some tasks, I would drive the car by myself to book stores trying to sell the Transfiguration Diet Book we had just published (though later sold to David Christopher of the School for Natural Healing).

12) Randall claims “Through this process, people who were otherwise intelligent were believing the craziest stuff they’ve ever heard. And that’s how he did it.”

Sawyer:

This is among the many biggest misconceptions and misinterpretations and outright putting his own spin on this tiny part of the story and would like to see some of my replies here posted to not leave people with all the misconceptions many will think is the absolute truth. I hope you all would do a new story and use me as one of your primary sources since I am an eye witness to the many things that were done and even reported here and why.

Mind you, I don’t care about publicity. In fact the more publicity I get the worse it can be for me since there are some people who claim I am dangerous which is ridiculous and I can prove it, which will be shown to come.

After all, I joined with TI and DO in 1975 and left them in 1994, started a family, fathering a daughter and raising her in a nice home in Vermont and only went public with my side of the story in 1997 after they exited this world and then went back to my life in the mountains. It wasn’t until 9/11 that I experienced from 30 miles away from ground zero, knowing people who worked in the World Trade Center but who just so happened to not go to work that day, that I began to research what happened as it seemed to me very apocalyptic and so started to write a book about my experience with TI and DO, that had nothing to do with what most of the mainstream media claims.

Fifteen years ago or more I started a youtube channel: 3spm and Facebook page, Sawyer.Heavensgate and a blog called sawyerhg.wordpress.com to talk about what I experienced with TI and DO and their teachings, behaviors and ways I witnessed in person for 19 years. I’ve never ever monetized. I have never ever promoted suicide. In fact I have said I am against both kinds of suicide, same as the group said, that of, human suicide and Soul suicide. DO and Crew were very clear that we need our human vehicles (bodies) in order to learn the lessons of life we need to truly progress if we desire to.

I am not a “teacher” nor a “leader”, only a student with a huge story to tell for those who want to hear it. There is no new group or commune or cult of any kind. It’s completely unnecessary and wasn’t to happen in TI and DO’s Mind (though nor do I try to stop people from seeking that experience of living communally by TI and DO’s teachings). I’m not actually living by all of TI and DO’s teachings. Some of their teachings they said themselves in their Book weren’t meant for people to live by now, after they had exited this planet.

Ironically, because I received certain of the Heaven’s Gate Intellectual Property in 1997 from one former member named Rkkody, since deceased, that I had been sharing with people since about 2007 and then in 2021 another body of TI and DO’s Information as over 900 audio tapes, from another former member known as Juan (Jhnody in the group) who shared some of what he had from the group, when I began to share what Juan gifted me with others, mostly audio tapes from the internal meetings of the group, most of which I was present for and can be heard in many asking questions and being corrected by TI and/or DO, those who became the web masters of the Heavensgate.com website sued me and another former student and another who never was in the group but believes in what TI and DO taught and is my partner.

This lawsuit is in progress and is a huge story in and of itself, starting from when DO and Crew exited and left instructions to former members, those who still believed in him, to disseminate all their information to whoever wanted it.

But Mark and Sarah, (who were called in the group Mrcody and Srfody), two who were sent out of the group by DO in 1987 because they didn’t want to live by the procedure described in short as “I could be wrong,” but who said they still believed in TI and DO, who DO didn’t want to cut off 100%, gave them some tasks to do for him before they left, and then let receiving those tasks go to their heads and tried to take control over all the Groups intellectual property by copyrighting some of it and suing for what they didn’t have. Those copyrights were fraudulently obtained which I am attempting to prove. Still they use those copyrights to keep others from having access to it all, all the 1061 audio tapes recorded from 1982 to 1997. Those tapes reveal the full depth of all TI and DO were doing. Some don’t want that information to get out. Mark and Sarah have their own reasons for not wanting that information to get out but much of it has already been provided throughout the internet but they are trying to stop me and a few others from making it part of the public domain and want to punish us for doing what DO wanted that they don’t want to take responsibility to do, yet won’t relinquish the tiny task they still do by keeping the website up and running.

Like I said, it’s a long story and if I live long enough I will make a documentary about all my experiences with TI and DO and Crew.

There is nothing at all about the time TI and DO spent here that I and others experienced that I want to hide. Yes, I know many will find fault with them as this person in this article does. But I intend to tell the truth, what really happened with lots of details.

Here is the url to the full text of this article:

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/manson-oj-simpson-heavens-gate-murder-real-estate-appraiser-randall-bell-804463/

Critique of “Redefining cult” re Heaven’s Gate with further Misinformation provided by Mark and Sarah (“telah”)

Below is my critique of the article which at about mid way provides responses via an email interview with Mark and Sarah, the Heavensgate.com webmasters. I have comments to add to what both the author and what Mark and Sarah said.

Excerpts from Article:

Redefining cult by Charlie Pappalardo February 15, 2023
https://www.michigandaily.com/statement/redefining-cult/

Article’s Author:

On March 26, 1997, as the comet Hale-Bopp reached its nearest point in orbit, 39 members of a new age religious movement known as Heaven’s Gate downed a mixture of phenobarbital, apple sauce and vodka, and lay down to die in the hopes of ascending to their conception of paradise: “The Evolutionary Level Above Human (TELAH).” A day later, all 39 bodies, covered in shrouds and clothed in black shirts, sweatpants and Nike Decades were discovered in a 7,000 square-foot Rancho Santa Fe mansion. And a day after that, the press went into a frenzy.

Much of it was sensationalized. Time’s magazine’s March 1997 issue featured a grainy, harrowing photo of a wide-eyed Marshall Applewhite — the group’s leader — on its cover with the ominous headline “Inside The Web of Death.” People magazine detailed, also on its cover, “Personal Stories From Heaven’s Gate: BEFORE THE CULT.” Elsewhere, coverage was much more measured and pragmatic. The front page of the Washington Post, published a day after the incident in Rancho Santa Fe, read “AT LEAST 39 FOUND IN APPARENT MASS SUICIDE” and the following day, the New York Times deployed the subheading “Death in a cult.”

Amid the attempts to make sense of the calamity, there was one thing that everyone could agree on: Whatever Heaven’s Gate was, whatever belief had pushed those individuals to suicide, whatever “mind control” Applewhite had implemented, it was a cult. Nobody disputed it and no paper challenged it because only a cult would ever drive its believers to suicide.

Sawyer’s reply:

I am one of at least 7 first hand witnesses that can testify that no one in the group was “pushed” in the least into suicide. Plus there was no “mind control” used by DO (Applewhite) or TI (Nettles). We were given the tools to control our own Minds, the same kind of way someone is taught how to overcome substance abuses/addictions. If the person didn’t apply the tools then they didn’t conquer the addiction. This mind control accusation is more ignorance from people who can’t stand to actually examing what happened there.

However, yes it was a cult, in fact according to DO, “The Cult of Truth” and “The Cult of Cults”.

This idea that “only a cult would ever drive it’s believers to suicide,” is also erroneous. Couldn’t early Christians and Jews and Muslims and Hindu’s and Buddhist teachings be seen as driving followers to some type of dying by one’s own choices, what today is called, suicide? Doesn’t the Military drive soldiers to giving their lives in service if need be? I don’t know if many are aware that for decades since the Iraq war but because of Vietnam, etc. there have been some 20 veterans who have committed suicide every day. Why? Oh, some will say because they can’t adjust and settle into civilian life or because of some other condition they are weak minded because of. Yet who that has a conscience can ever justify going to a foreign land and being part of the machine that killed thousands and even millions of people, men, women and children? The number who are diagnosed with PTSD each day is in the hundreds and many will be on medications for their entire lives to keep from feeling depressed and angry and bombarded with hopelessness because of their choices.

What is a cult, this article goes on to try to define. DO said it was a “sub-culture”. Naturally the dominant culture in any society can feel threatened by sub-cultures because the sub-cultures don’t go along with the status quo culture necessarily. It’s well known that just because large numbers of people believe something doesn’t mean they believe in something or someone that deserves to be believed in. Look at how many people seemed to believe in the Vietnam and Iraq wars at the time yet in both cases it’s clearly known now that neither of those wars and many others were justified in any way.

But over time and not all that much time, the information that a Cult starts upon becomes more and more mainstream, that is if it’s content has legs such as what resulted in the worlds major religions. And those mainstream religions don’t like to be challenged. They become entwined with Governments.

Here is a prime example. If one goes to most any church and start talking about the many primary things Jesus said, many will say, that’s not what he meant, or that applied when he was walking on earth, or He was being figurative then not literal and will say he was being literal when the evidence shows he was being figurative.

If one suggested Jesus was a cult leader, many will say that’s blasphemous. Did he “push” his believers into suicide? One could make that argument but I know it wasn’t pushing any more than TI and DO pushed anyone. Nevertheless all three showed a great deal of evidence of having very strict standards students needed to adhere to if they expected to reap the claimed rewards of graduation into their Corporation that created the planet and all it’s life form systems. Often those who have come to accept belief in Jesus often have bought the so called formula of “believe on him” and reap the rewards. So when the Older Members (Father and Son) return and talk of the major requirements to be included in their Crew that means literally ceasing to function as humans, to wash one’s human mind out of one’s consciousness as much as possible so to fill one’s Mind with the consciousness from the Older Member’s Mind, it all seems bizarre and completely foreign.

On top of that the Lower Forces stimulate all manner of humans to twist, distort and dilute what the previous Representative from the Level Above Human said/taught/required to take next steps in their Astronaut Training Program by stimulating certain humans to grab onto a few characteristics common to the Next Level behaviors and ways while near completely acting in opposition to those behaviors and ways so that they give the entire idea a bad name. So that drives people to reject the religions but in doing so if they still hold onto a sense that what the last Representative provided, then they stand a chance of recognizing the truth when it’s revealed by the newly incarnate Older Members. It’s never easy as the Next Level (Kingdom of God, Kingdom of Heaven) want it to be hard as they only having openings for a few positions, in this case to replace the positions once held by those who dropped out. However, if more respond favorably to what those incarnate Representatives say and do, they still have a chance of getting with the program by learning about their requirements which at this time is to seek to be of service to the Next Level Above Human which if pursued by someone will lead them to the study of what DO and Ti taught and by the way that’s not leading to suicide but does lead to being seen that way by those who don’t know any better.

Case in point of how even those who appear to be serving the Next Level are acting against their own beliefs. This is shown clearly by the fact that I’m being sued right now by the Heavengate.com webmasters who are seeking to get a preliminary injunction against me to totally stop me from talking on my social media sites and they are saying that because of what I do in my livestream about talking about TI and DO there could be a repeat of what happened in 1997.

This is bizarre to have that kind of action against me by the webmasters of the biggest internet presence of the teachings of TI and DO, telling me I need to have my talk about them curtailed and especially because I am not at all talking favorably about Suicide. However, that is another of many examples of how the Lower Forces seek to even twist the Minds of even those who appear to be in favor of the teaching of the Next Level, which evidences what the so called war of Armageddon is all about – it’s a war for Souls with the lower forces seeking to steal away souls that could become Members of the Next Level if they seek it hard enough and are willing to push through their fears. Anyway, to the Court I just wrote many pages of all the evidence of how and why I talk against suicide. I’ll include those examples at the end of this reply.

For examples of distortions and dilutions and blatent promotion of mis/dis-information, one can look at all the groups/Cults who formed before and after TI and DO came public. For instance to include families and/or sexuality and/or children is a tell tale sign that what so and so is teaching is not from the genuine Next Level Members because like Jesus said, it’s a new family that is being developed among true believers and doers of the teachings. So all these other cults, though they have little pieces of the truth, what is real about the Next Level in whatever terms, they all demonstrate anything but the Next Level behaviors and ways and that’s because the Lower forces seek to distract from what the Next Level teaches.

Like take Jonestown. They were attempting to live communally which is characteristic of previous and current classrooms. There are often one or two charismatic leaders, but notice that in TI and DO’s efforts they didn’t seek to increase their numbers and even sent some out of their group because they didn’t feel they were serious enough to make it through the program they were offering and as it turned out some of those 19 found their way back into the group years before the Group left in 1997. But in Heaven’s Gate there were no children and no families and no sexuality and no drugs or other substance usages. There was no gender consciousness or race consciousness, all characteristics that are human. Also there was no recruiting in any real sense of that word. And isn’t it interesting that 25 years later there still aren’t any stories from the many dropouts or others about TI and/or DO saying or doing anything like ALL the other cult leaders and sects of Christianity and other religions and throughout the secular world as well, have said and done that are filled with all sorts of abuses of people and hording of monies and murders and schemes and manipulation of people? Plus for anyone that cares to examine, I’ve filled a book of 900 pages of research and experience that shows evidence in an academic kind of way that TI and DO fulfilled or are still fulfilling all the prophecies in the Book of Revelation and from what Jesus said in the 4 gospels.

Plus, when the message can’t be shot down what do people do, they try to shoot the messenger and that’s precisely what they have been doing to TI and DO and Crew since the start in 1975. Since 2017 TI has been called a hypocrite even by her vehicles daughter Terrie. Remember how Jesus said one’s enemies would be from their own families? There was no hypocrisy at all and I can have have proved it but no one in media groups wants to tackle that. Plus DO has been portrayed as evil in every which way but with no evidence because there wasn’t an evil bone his his body or mind and I can prove that too. In the 2020 doc they constructed a scenario that whenever DO got emotional talking about his Heavenly Father, TI, it was really because he had disappointed his human father because his vehicle had been homosexual.

Regardless, the societies that have become popular tend to lump everything that challenges them into one category, today called a “cult” which is also often done with subjects/events that become controversial or even avoided talk about in the mainstream media, often labeled a conspiracy, etc. and/or about the entire UFO subject. And the paid psychologists and stock religionists and new age pseudo spiritualists who the media often calls on, can always get ratings by debunking whatever they think the public won’t consider, so they will keep getting called on to add their two cents. Very, very few are brave enough to dig for what’s not made easy to find, which is actually good because the Next Level doesn’t need new members so they’d rather it be difficult to seek out the truth.

So I wanted to take some time to provide a little sort of synopsis of how Jesus talked about his and his students exit of their bodies and why and for who. First off I must approach the question:

Wasn’t Jesus the head of a Cult in his day?

Couldn’t it easily be said that Jesus drove his believers to “lay down” their human lives by knowing that if they spoke publicly about what Jesus said, which Jesus clearly wanted them to do, they would be treated like Jesus was treated and they would be killed because of. Isn’t that a “suicide” mission?

It was called in the bible to “lay down one’s life”. Remember when Jesus said, “do this in remembrance of me”. Was he starting a ritual, a ceremony or saying, you have to do all that I have done and then you can qualify to reap the reward. Then the lower forces twisted that into a religious practice and thinking that if we went through the motions even in thought alone and followed some rules we’d get the total reward Jesus promised. That had the affect that upon his return many people wouldn’t find themselves prepared to recognize what was true, what was real and what the Soul who was in that body named Jesus would be saying upon returning, that he’d be saying the same things and even much more upon return.

Here are some of the ways Jesus talked about being willing to give one’s all in service to him, the currently incarnate Older Member Soul from the Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of God, the Next Level Above Human:

Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Here Jesus shows the condition in which his Father loves him:

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

Here Jesus is quite clear that he is choosing to lose his physical life, lay it down and that it is his right for one reason only because His Father said it was appropriate.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Here Jesus gives instructions to love one another and then decribes the greatest application of that love being to “lay down his life for his friends”. then he gives the condition in which he considered others his Friends. They do whatever he tells them to do.

Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Here is part of how Jesus knew that laying down his life was his task given to him by his Father, his Older Member which was talked about as his “cup” which was also equivilent to saying his “lot” – what TI and DO called his “assigned task”:

Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.
Joh 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

For those that followed Jesus, they knew it would never be popular during their time and Jesus knew that the price to pay was giving service that could result in the laying down of our body. That doesn’t mean desiring to do so, except for knowing that the task would require leaving one’s body by whatever method. Here it’s talked about as to “take up the cross” which was a common way to kill off heretics and political dissidents who threatened the governments sovereignty:

Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

In other words if one decides to ignore the opportunity to outgrow one’s human kingdom life then they could lose their potential life in his kingdom as one may not make the choices that would find them recognizing the presence of the Older Member and seek to bond with that individual who can lead one into accomplishing the coursework needed to graduate out of the human kingdom into the Next Level Above Human, no longer remaining in a temporary cyclic system of birth and death. Thus graduation = the truest meaning of “life”:

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Here Jesus says it in another way, that the body is not really the greater part of what/who we are although now is getting rid of our body any kind of ticket to heaven. In fact in “Our Position Against Suicide” on the Heavensgate.com website, DO and Crew make it very clear that we need our human vehicles to learn lessons through:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Article Author:

But what that word — cult — means is highly subjective and often not very clear. In fact, there are at least two people who would still disagree that Heaven’s Gate was a cult — and they still consider themselves members, even continuing to run the group’s website in order to keep their message alive. So a few weeks ago, I decided to email them. They responded quickly and in a matter-of-fact tone reminiscent of something sent from a PR company — and they answered any questions I had. I asked them the basics. What drew them to their faith? What was life like in the group? Had their faith been at all shaken in the years since 1997? And did they ever feel sadness at being removed from the other members of their group? They answered with a numbered list — four terse bullet points reading exactly:

1: We went to a meeting that Ti and Do held at Waldport Oregon in 1975. We listened to them and joined immediately.

Sawyer: I went to the same meeting and also joined immediately thereafter.

2: We went on the road with them and lived in campground situations while learning of the Next Level.

Sawyer: I also went on the road with them and lived in campgrounds while learning from TI and DO.

3: Since 1997 our understanding has remained the same. There are no doubts.

Sawyer:

This is very telling for Mark and Sarah to say they don’t have any doubts when there is a vast amount of evidence that they actually have a great many doubts. Let’s first define “doubts”. If someone is in school and the professor gives instructions and the student doesn’t want to do the instructions given, the student may on the surface believe that Professor is a Professor, went to school and graduated and is capable of teaching whatever course, but when it comes to practical “belief” in what that Professor instructs, shows doubt by not paying attention to what the Professor desires from their students.

Mark and Sarah demonstrate being like that student who believes in general everything that TI and DO taught but in specific chooses to ignore the biggest most current instructions given for after they exited, that we have tons of evidence of. Their own words reveal this:

Here are two segments that give guidelines for after their exit to be found in the document “Away Team” From Deep Space Surfaces Before Departure, written by Jwnody, trusted elder Student in TI and DO’s Classroom on April 8, 1996 to be found in the Heaven’s Gate Book and/or posted on Heavensgate.com:

Note the last line that indicates these returned Souls are getting the the opportunity – being given the chance to leave by getting this information out – what DO called the Dissemination Project what every new believer must engage to show the Next Level they want to work for them. Mark and Sarah have made it very clear that they believe only them have that task, in direct opposition to what DO taught. Here is the entire paragraph:

“Every soul, that was a part of a deposit, at any time during this civilization, is back to make their choices once again. Some of these may be younger, perhaps second- or first-trimester, souls. Although they may not even have a chance to get to know us before our departure, we do recognize them, because they “recognize the enemy.” They see through the lies and no longer want to be a part of this world. And so it is our task to give them a chance to leave this place by getting this information out.”

Then Jwnody writes the same perspective from another vantage-point showing that it’s an “overriding requirement” to believe all of what TI and DO taught and be willing to “take a stand in defense of that belief” again not a mere belief but one that requires action. Taking a Stand means one needs to know what TI and DO stood for, thus one could assume a significant study time period would be helpful. Here is the entire paragraph:

“In order to get saved for further planting, the overriding requirement is to recognize that this is true (these are the facts). You must believe that we represent the Kingdom that created this planet and all of its inhabitants. And you must be willing to take a stand in defense of that belief, and sustain that stand until the end – your departure – regardless of the consequences.”

Mark King has said that he wants the world to hear the TI and DO information but apparantly not many of the 1061 audio tapes Mark King says they have in their possession, that they admitted to having digitized many years ago have been provided to anyone, save Jhnody who when he shared them with me because at odds with Mark and Sarah. They say they won’t share them with some of the biggest disseminators of TI and DO’s information, Crlody (aka Carlan) and Swyody (aka Sawyer) because they say we will post them on the internet and that would be like “pearls before swine” to give them to whoever asks, yet they have supported the website for 25 years and no doubt there are some that have gone to that website to strictly harass them. It’s part of the territory to deal with certain degrees of negativity directed at us.

Mark told everyone in one of my livestreams over a year ago that they would put all those audio tapes on Vimeo but then made a condition out of doing so, that Sawyer and Carlan needed to give them all the audio tapes we possessed. We each independently from one another were gifted with the audio tapes. Carlan received about 218 of them from Rkkody who he was working with in 1997 after Rkkody retrieved them from Storage that the Class wanted him and others to have. Rkkody sent them to me in 1997 and again in 1998. Then in 2021 Jhnody (Francisco Falcon) sent me a thumb drive with over 900 audio tapes on it. He was gifted the audio tapes by none other than Mark and Sarah for safekeeping off shore since Jhnody lives in Venezuela. But Jhnody just so happened to listen to audio tape 149 where TI and DO each expressed not less than three times anticipating after they exited people listening to every audio tape and even growing by a type of osmosis from repeatedly listening to them. So he realized the tapes weren’t meant to be kept in storage but were meant to be heard so he sent them to me because he knew I’d share them with people who asked for them. I did that and Mark and Sarah freaked out and threatened a lawsuit. No money was involved at all. But they know that I know exactly why they were kicked out of the Group and hate hearing that story they have been lying about. Notice how in this interview they avoid that question. More on that later.

See, when DO and Crew exited in 1997 they sent 8 former Students one or more Fed X packages containing video tapes and documents, away team patches, etc. At least four of the eight; Rkkody, Mark/Sarah, and Jhnody received the web site code and Rkkody and Mark/Sarah got the account information. Mark and Sarah got the letter that expressed they could go to Storage to retrieve the items of value that included the 1061 audio tapes and suggested getting help with storage from Rkkody and Oscody and others. But when they exited Mark and Sarah didn’t intend to go to Storage and on the morning of the 27th of March gave the letters they got from DO and Crew to Rkkody because they were afraid. So Rkkody and Oscody went to storage later that same morning when they got the letters because the letters told of Storage and the codes and other information. Rkkody and Oscody roughly split up the 486 audio tape cassettes they retrieved from Storage. Rkkody had received from DO the instructions to make initial changes to the website and after he was deceased Mark and Sarah, who before then changed their minds and then wanted to do their task since they saw it’s wasn’t going to continue bringing the website and them more than manageable negative media attention. I believe they even settled into enjoying having the appearance of leadership and felt they were reinstated to some degree to Group membership, which no doubt they might have been to some degree but then started to sway far away from what TI and DO wanted by claiming to be the only ones with the task to disseminate TI and DO’s information and claiming they owned everything and falsifying copyrights on some of the audio tapes and video tapes and the book and paintings the Group members created. DO certainly could have copyrighted things but the only copyright example he left behind was on the original book, we the “blue book” which had a Common Law Copyright on it that allowed for copying parts of their book or entirely as long as none of it was changed or added to and as long as it was done for commercial purposes. (It’s clear from DO’s previous lessons that charging someone for the materials needed to give people the information is not considered commercial).

Mark and Sarah lied to three courts now in a number of ways and in this suit we have been calling them to task for doing so and we hope the Court will at least let us have our day in Court to prove. I don’t want to have this battle with them but they attacked me, Crlody and my partner Cathy so we are forced to defend ourselves and stand up for our right to have access to all of TI and DO’s teachings and share them with others who ask for them and not do so for profit.

Mark and Sarah continue to change things about history and even what TI and Do stood for and I must call them out since they are claiming to represent TI and DO’s legacy to the public and lying is bringing them dishonor.

Next response to article authors questions:

4: We do not feel separated from them.”

Sawyer: See, here Mark and Sarah did not answer the question the author asked them about. It’s really no big deal to admit why they were sent out of the group, but to them, according to the interview in Bardo Methodology Mark felt DO was unjust and even apologetic for sending them out of the Group, or at least that’s the way Mark took DO’s calls in those days it seems. But even if DO did express that perhaps he made a mistake, which from DO’s audio tapes, I doubt, then why didn’t Mark and Sarah return to the Classroom? Mark seemed to address that, saying the same things would come up because of certain students still being there because certain students knew from working with Mark how hard it was because he always thought he was so right about his ideas, which was totally uncharacteristic of a Member of the Next Level which we were attempting to become/train for according to TI and DO’s guidance.

Then there was another time when DO offered he and Sarah some service when they were outside the Class and according to DO the refused and agreed they wouldn’t want service if they couldn’t perform it while staying exactly where the were and living by themselves as opposed to having another classmate working together with them. See, DO was examining different attempts to interface with the public again so was looking for some students who were outside the Class but said they still wanted service to help out in ways. So if their removal from the Class was all because of rumors of other students in the Class, if they wouldn’t be working with those certain other students because they weren’t going to be in that major student body, then why not take DO up on the service he offered. I completely identify with why not do what DO suggests as after I left, over a year later DO asked me through Rkkody what was up with me and all I had to say was that nothing had changed which meant I wanted to be doing exactly what I had been doing. I could have expressed that I would like service but felt I needed to be outside the Class and DO would have stayed in touch with me as well and perhaps then I would have been on the list of 8 who received packets when they exited. I understand that there is something we could like about not being in the Class as it was easier to not be in the Class because DO’s standards were higher than ours.

To me they are hiding the things that happened. Of course they never were much for being transparent with the public, never giving any face to face interviews that I ever heard about. That’s also not easy to arrive at because who wants to be walking around and have people identify you with what was called a Suicide Cult. I don’t have a lot of problems in that regard but there have been some because I’ve done a great deal of media showing my face. I show my face so that people will know who is talking.

Do offered them additional service outside the Classroom in 1994 that I was a witness to. And why did Mark blame DO’s choice to send him out, on certain classmates spreading rumors about him to DO, as if DO wasn’t a good teacher by listening to certain students which there is zero evidence he did and these are not just opinions but can be backed up by over a dozen clips of DO talking about them in the very audio tapes they don’t want me to talk about. For years I didn’t even want to play those audio tapes but now I may have to, that is if they keep on pressuring me with the lawsuit and even making false accusations about me, as if to try to get back at me for telling the truth about the things they say to the media and public that are not from TI and DO’s Mind. Sometimes their responses may be in line with what DO and TI taught but they say too few words so it becomes misleading. If I recall correctly, one example was where I believe they gave several different media groups this idea that there was no Heaven and no Hell. Sure that could be said but to just say that as they seemed to is really poor because many things need much more explanation. For instance, there is no “heaven” as the religions think of it as floating around on clouds or being given eternal life for doing next to nothing beause some believe Jesus did it for us. Jesus did demonstrate what needed to be done but we had to build our minds to duplicate what he gave us to do.

So they have been trying to hide the truth and perhaps even see some of it differently, though what Mark said in Bardo Methodology makes no sense they want people who go to the website and I’m sure those who know them more personally and to certain media groups who have interviewed them and lied to all about why they left, to take responsibility upon themselves for their choices, instead of blaming DO for being influenced by class members as Mark claimed in the Bardo Methodology Interview that I critiqued on my sawyerhg.wordpress.com blog.

Article Author:

At first, the shock factor of a response floored me, but as I continued a dialogue with them, I realized that we were speaking with different understandings of what Heaven’s Gate was. When I asked them questions about Heaven’s Gate, I was asking questions about what it was like to live in a cult. But when they responded, they were talking about a way of life — their way of life — as fact. Take, for example, how they later described TELAH:

Mark and Sarah: “There is no spirituality of any kind. Think of it as NASA, not silly nobodies angels.”

Sawyer:

This is how they described “TELAH”?

I would tend to believe Mark and Sarah said more about it that he didn’t publish in this article but then again, I wouldn’t be surprised with Mark and Sarah saying that little because of how little they say in answer to questions to many interviews I have on record.

However, I believe they told me when I met with them in 2021 with my partner Cathy as my witness that, before the Group left, when DO and Crew had some communications with them, as DO prepared to leave their vehicles, he told them something to the effect of not to fence with people and keep your responses short, if I recall, and to me they took this to an extreme sometimes, even often times, from the many interviews they have given. Plus DO must have been speaking about their website responses, if I understood correctly, knowing they would be subject to lots of negativity from people, as I believe they were. But in interviews, note they didn’t give instructions like that to Rkkody or Jhnody or others who took on what DO called the Project to Disseminate their information to people. When we traveled around the country and perpared for doing so in the early 1990’s when I became a primary on the speaker task, there were no instructions on what to say and how much to say. Here is why I’m harping on this:

Mark and Sarah seem to go overboard, I presume unknowingly to use as few words as possible but then the words they do choose become almost complete contradictions of even basic teachings from TI and DO. I believe they have criticized me for much talking, as have others, and I’ve learned to actually keep it down yet not for the sake of brevity alone but to instead try to make what I say more potent and meaningful. So even though I may fail at that, I think it’s far more important to err on the side of giving more information in interviews, even if it never gets aired because there is just too much, because I really feel explaining things in different ways was what DO was so good at and I wish to try to mimic him though it’s not a competition either – it’s to give the reader/listener the best chance of keeping negative influences at bay and getting through with providing some avenues for a continued curiosity about what TI and DO taught, instead of being filled with the words that the media gives people to consume. It seems to me that if anyone doesn’t want to say much or don’t have much to say or feel they aren’t able to get it across in some adequate way, it’s almost always good to try but in order to stay on the course DO and TI gave us, then bring in quotes from things they recorded in writings and/or audios and/or video’s they made.

For example related to Mark and Sarah’s use of the word “spirituality” in this interview in this article, in the video DO made in September of 1996 and in a number of other video’s and audios he made, he said that the Next Level Above Human was both physical and spiritual but just wasn’t etheric.

To say there was “no spirituality…” is one degree of contradiction and then to say “…of any kind.” is like another layer of contradiction. TI and DO said that the word “Spirit” was actually synonymous with the word they preferred, “Mind”. They actually said a lot about those words plus lots of concrete understanding about what a Soul is. They said there were two kinds of Mind in the human kingdom, mind/spirit aka information and programming, from the lower forces, the Luciferian Space Alien fallen angel soul teachings, as information that is against the Next Level thinking and the Next Level thinking aka Holy Mind or Holy Spirit (the later kind that flows and joins every Member of the Next Level (Kingdom of Heaven/God). There are a number of documents in the Heaven’s Gate Book that do a great job of describing Spirit/Mind and Souls. So if they don’t want to say much about it for whatever reason why not point them to the documents. I am well aware of a discarnate influence, or Soul from the lower forces that wants to avoid looking at the words of TI and DO and likes to give out the feeling especially to former students that they have retained all the information that there is to retain because they like to have some think they have an excellent memory and comprehension. Mark, I’m sorry to have to say, his vehicle (body) does or used to have a good memory and keen comprehension, but he became over confident in that and so TI and DO and later DO needed to give him a special task of being “muted” so he wouldn’t be butting into things in ways that were inappropriate and he was referred to as acting like a “trail boss” among students and that he didn’t know when he was possibly wrong about his opinions and yet he has demonstrated all those same characteristics even to a far heightened degree by suing me for playing audio tapes for free on my Youtube channel, 3spm over the years, but especially since I received the 900 plus audios from Jhnody that he gave to Jhnody but wanted Jhnody to just store them, not do anything with them, which was very much against what TI and DO wanted and expressed in many of those same audio tapes.

I’ve learned for myself, that by playing those tapes over again for myself personally but mostly to look for answers to certain questions I had, that there was a lot that I missed and I don’t think I was really terrible at listening. TI and DO just said so many things that went near completely over my head so they didn’t really register. When I met Cathy who had been in her own right a new believer I began to listen with her to audio tapes with or without looking for something in particular and in all cases I learned so, so much I’d either forgot or never fully grasped to the degree perhaps I could have or that I would grasp better if I had had some more experience in the world.

It’s like someone who reads the words of Jesus and then at other points in their lives read those words again and even again with even years in between, I would tend to guarantee each time they came back to reading those words, they would come away with feeling they understand many things better than before even as if it was the first time hearing those words. I believe that is because the Older Members aren’t just using words. They know what they know and that knowing literally stays with their words and can in percentages according to the listeners choices provide different degrees of understanding.

DO did compare the Next Level to being a Corporation to remove it from the religious terminology that renders it less than real. But even saying “…not silly nobodies angels”, is like putting people down that have beliefs about angels when they are not silly at all. He/They seem to have this highly cynical streak and talk as if they are talking down to people as if they maintain some loftiness above others.

Yes, DO gave them some tasks to do but they then seemed to take that as, now we can do exactly what we want with the information left behind because DO said in his letters to each of the former students I know about that they could exercise whatever options they choose to. They have even stated this in their lawsuit as their justification for copyrighting audios and video’s and writings, things DO certainly could have copyrighted and/or given them some legal documentation to justify their having that material copyrighted. But DO didn’t give any of that to them and that may be the reason their copyrights should not stand up as preventing anyone from copying them as long as it’s not for commercial purposes (besides to pay for their being digitized, etc.), which is the copyright DO put on the Heaven’s Gate Book that Mark and Sarah then removed and replaced it with the Telah copyright. That even would not have become a negative if they did that and then let others do the dissemination task but no they couldn’t stand for someone else and especially me or Carlan and now Cathy from participating in the dissemination task because it might confuse people they said in the lawsuit and lead them to commit suicide when no one since 2000 has committed suicide related to Heaven’s Gate and we would certainly have heard about it. But it’s because people need their human vehicles to learn lessons through and this is the time to do it and there is no ticket to Heaven by dying and living some good life as some religions teach.

Article Author:

When they speak about the doctrines of Heaven’s Gate, it isn’t a matter of faith or belief. It’s a matter of what is. In their minds, they aren’t in a cult, because they aren’t spiritual. They don’t believe, they know.

Sawyer:

I don’t know if Mark and Sarah think of themselves as supporting a “cult” by keeping their writings on line through heavensgate.com. I could see why they have tried to steer people away from using that word but all I think we really need to do is explain the things DO said about the word, that it meant “sub-culture”. I already spent much time on that word early on in this article critique so I won’t repeat myself here.

Article Author:

If you want, you can dismiss the last two remaining members of Heaven’s Gate as crazy cultists who have been brainwashed and traumatized. But, they can — and do — say the same about other religions. Hell, they even acknowledged as much on their website, where they predicted having their beliefs derided as heretical.

“It is clear to all of us, that to the Anti-Christ — those propagators of sustained faithfulness to mammalian humanism — we are, and will be seen as, their Anti-Christ.”

Sawyer:

They are not “remaining members” necessarily as there are no laurels to give any former members stature like that if one thinks about it as “stature”. If I was to employ that, then I would claim to be an Older Member and/or Elder Member in the context of helping humans grow towards Next Level Membership, because DO said that on the Beyond Human – The Last Call – session One that I was a helper for. But I didn’t get a passing grade in that Classroom so that would be wrong for me to assume and nor is there any value to taking that position because I do still act in human ways even though I don’t know how distasteful are the human things I do to DO relative to what I’m up against and relative to the tasks of dissemination I attempt to perform. The point is that DO is our judge not one another.

I believe they like the idea that people think it’s their website and I get that as I like to be of service to TI and DO which they have done by keeping the website up and running mostly unchanged from how they left it for many years now. But that has seemed to go to their heads as a type of personal power to the degree that they seem to think they can second guess TI and DO. For instance they told Cathy in an email that we have on file, that if I got on an airplane without having been vaccinated during the tail end of the Covid disease, “TI would slap him silly” which TI would never do even if she thought I was very wrong to do that. And the fact is we don’t know for sure what TI would say about all that, but “they do????” – They gave Cathy and I several indications that showed how highly in tune with TI and DO’s Mind they think they are and yet their actions speak tons to their missing so much of what TI and DO can be heard talking about wanting to see.

Article Author:

To the outside world, Heaven’s Gate is a cult. To those within it, all else is a cult. So, if we reach this point, where the word “cult” loses its value and becomes defined as a matter of perception, then does the word “cult” bear any meaning at all? This predicament raises an interesting question: How on earth do we define the word “cult” so that it actually describes something more than just the abnormality of belief?

Sawyer: This is not true. All else besides Heaven’s Gate is the accepted normal CULTURE, not at all a subCULTure. Even the many groups termed cults by the main stream are not necessarily a subculture either. That would take an analysis of each one. But Heaven’s Gate cult is actually the Cult of Cults and the Cult of Truth – in other words doesn’t match up with any norms or even the other sub-cultural norms. Sure there are similarities among all Groups and the Religions when they began were to whatever was the mainstream at that time a Cult subculture. For instance those that believed in Jesus 2000 or so years ago were looked down on by the mainstream/state religions, Greek, Roman and Jewish. Their leader was considered crazy and dangerous to the norms, thus challenging to them all. Heaven’s Gate being the fulfillment of what Jesus actually taught were also seen as crazy and dangerous to the norms that developed over time assimilating Christians into society.

TI and DO taught that every human had the capacity to choose to enter into a metamorphic process that would literally change out and transform them into a new Being in all ways, biological and mental/spiritual into a person the Creators of the Earth and all it’s life forms, who are many membered and have their Kingdom in Outer space on board spacecraft laboratories that can be as large as planets inside and/or out would have joy adding to their Family and crew who are all the Next Evolutionary Step Above and Beyond the Human kingdom level of life. That meant each student needed to abort all their human thinking, behaviors and ways enough to be acceptable in Their Kingdom before they are allowed to be among them. The religions have some of this truth but are all distortions and dilutions the Next Level allows to happen by allowing the dropouts from a previous experiment to remain on earth to influence humans so that humans could only grow by their choices that the Next Level Members help them to do if they ask. This is exactly what Jesus taught but was distorted and diluted to be another country club religion, though can also be stepping stones.

Article Author:

In the case of Heaven’s Gate — a prime example of just how dangerous cults can become — it’s clear that definitions matter. A few months before their mass suicide, the group released a page on their website titled “Our Position Against Suicide.” But in it, they redefined suicide. Suicide, in their revision, became turning “against the Next Level when it is being offered.” The word was injected with value. Suicide was no longer just an action, but an action only comprehensible through the lens of an ideology and, as such, it lost all meaning. In much the same way, “cult” has lost all meaning in common vernacular.

Sawyer:

Actually, in the piece, Our Position Against Suicide, they talked about there being a need to have a human body. They were against both forms of suicide. Suicide of the human and suicide of the Soul. Of course if one doesn’t consider that there is a Soul then this will make no sense but for anyone that claims to be a Christian who believes in what Jesus taught then he plainly spoke of death of the body as unimportant and death of Soul being of the utmost importance.

Article Author:

Cults have enormous, enormous power — over their followers, over the public psyche and even over what we understand about religion. The power they have can be incredibly destructive, and I think the simplest thing we can do to restrict that power is to actually, objectively, understand what they are — as structures of belief, not merely abnormality.

Sawyer:

It’s ironic that any reasonable examination of the power any groups classified as cults have over people could easily be shown to be minuscule compared to the highly and “incredibly destructive” power the established mindsets, the religions, the political institutions and societies have on their “believers”. Look at the wars? Look at the suicide rate. In the U.S. alone there is an average of 124 or so suicides every day, 20 or so from former military personnel. Look at how many people are on a constant regimen of various drug (legal and illegal) and alcohol and other substance use and abuse just to get through each day and how many die or are maimed as a result. Look at all the deceit and manipulations of the people that goes on over decades by the mainstream media who support this or that government and/or party in power, as they reap trillions of dollars selling weapons to one another’s nations. And yet, a little ole group of people who are classified as a dangerous cult because they decided they would leave their bodies in their own way at their own time instead of waiting to die of disease or old age or from an accident or in a war or because of crime.

For any Christian who thinks Heaven’s Gate was dangerous, they might want to think about what Jesus said and did and how he was treated and do just a tiny comparison between what Jesus actually told his followers they must do to reap the said rewards of being with him in his kingdom before casting stones at the TI and DO believers.

A Little Theory about the UFO “Balloon” Events Based on TI and DO’s Minds (rough draft)

Here’s a little theory. I fully believe and even have experience to know that Space aliens are real and I’m certain many governments are also very well aware that they exist and have crashed spacecrafts and bodies that were not human.

So what if what TI and DO said about these aliens is right – that they are Souls which are real and are a plasma like physical container that holds Mind, memory from physical body to physical body and these have even come from a previous civilization and were given spacecrafts like the way humans are given spacecrafts and have been hiding underground or in orbit around the earth or perhaps other bodies in the near to earth space. That they came from a previous civilization on earth before this current one and/or from different planets in or outside of this solar system when the Next Level Above Human opened up a worm hole (highway) for them to traverse great linear distances by bending time and space as Bob Lazar talked about. So these would be the ones in the records spoken of as the fallen angels because they broke away from the most true ET’s (seen in the records in the archaic and somewhat inaccurate literature as Angels and Gods), thus the pseudo or false or pretend to be lessor “gods” but real people just the same. And the way they survived after the death of the suit of clothes they once had (physical body) was by abducting humans for their eggs and sperm and making test tube babies or other forms of artificial insemination, etc. and some genetic engineering that doesn’t necessarily take a laboratory to perform.

So these aliens who aren’t really nearly as sophisticated and intelligent or “spiritually adept” as they pretend to be, do have more of an overview of the human kingdom and know they can manipulate humans in governments to some degree (like david icke somewhat accurately talks about because he and others have picked up on parts of what’s true/really going on) as TI and DO knew that the aliens were literally controlling human leaders – why? Because there are a lot of things they can’t do. They can’t manufacture spacecrafts like they have as they weren’t the technicians who made the spacecrafts they currently still have that may have unlimited longevity, except lets say they only have a limited amount of the element Bob Lazar said existed in that spacecraft engine he back engineered that gives the ability for advanced space travel and speed and even anti gravity in an earth environment. Let’s say like Lazar said it’s a highly radioactive element that has power like a magnet by manageable without all the waste and explosions that come from splitting atoms. This could be why George Bush said publicly that they wanted to have bases on the moon and mars and by doing so “might find a resource that would boggle the mind” and perhaps they think that element is on asteroid Ceres that is causing that bright light city. So the space aliens want that element and they need humans to harvest it so they need technology development and the best way they can escalate technology development is by wars to include the so called “climate change” war and the war against disease developments and the war for energy to run their technology and the war to try to develop that element themselves via colliders and at the same time to bore underground in case the surface becomes too corrupt to live on and to fight against anyone who completes with them and to fight against others they deem to be the “bad aliens” that the so called “good aliens” say are the bad aliens which are ironically the literal creators of this planet and it’s life forms for the purpose of growing Souls that could one day evolve beyond the human biological and mental/spiritual kingdom the same way humans have evolved above the animal kingdom with the same kind of gap in kingdom levels of life.

If that was true or true enough for us to understand it, then like Hillary Clinton was famous for saying, they would take advantage of every crisis plus the space aliens would want to stimulate reasons to push the governments to speed up their technological developments. So regardless of who created the balloon #1 perhaps it gave them an idea as it served a number of purposes… . Look at how fast they were calling that balloon a UFO and then took the name UAP which was the new terms they seemed to make catch on when they brought those sighting to the pubic eye several years ago and we learned that the FBI had an ongoing program they were keeping secret for many years, something that many of us knew was happening all along because it’s common knowledge in some circles that aliens are among us and have been for a long, long time and especially since the 1940’s witnessed.

So with all this said, it’s most interesting what DO said about some of what might happen after his departure. That we could see thousands of spacecrafts coming in from different parts of the heavens, some being from the Next Level Above Human. At the same time he didn’t know if we’d literally “see” them and to what degree we might “see” them and how we would “interpret” what we might see or see through various media.

The Next Level also has a program to increase awareness of things that are Above and Beyond Human so whether they directly or indirectly stimulated some of what’s been happening or if the space aliens are stimulating some of what’s happening or whether governments are stimulating some of what’s happening it is having the effect of people wanting to know the truth and even opening their minds further to the possibilities.

There is lots more about this, to think about and consider. I suggest viewing DO in his own words talking about the Three Ages and the Big Surprise coming of thousands of spacecrafts coming in, not necessarily visible, some coming from Lucifer’s corporation to take souls who had shown allegiance to him and other spacecrafts coming in to harvest souls of those who had shown allegiance to TI and DO and/or to separating from the world in their own ways.

Three ages – big surprise – thousands of crafts from Next Level and Lucifer corporation taking souls. All humans might see are droves dying from diseases, etc. The specific section of this part is from Beyond Human – The Last Call – Session 4 – Starting at about: 1:30:34 and ending at about 1:42:07.

Because I am being sued for disseminating the Intellectual Property of TI and DO ironically by the Heavensgate.com webmasters Mark and Sarah I can only point you to the Heaven’s Gate Vimeo site to listen to these tapes because they think they are supposed to be the only ones to disseminate TI and DO’s information which is directly contrary to DO’s instructions to them and others. What’s also ironic is that I am in the Beyond Human Series as a helper to DO in about 5 of the sessions and perhaps one was session 4, I’m not sure, yet I could get fined or have my sites closed down if I share what I was literally a part of because of the huge ego’s of Mark and Sarah who are trying to think of themselves as special because they were kicked out of the Class by DO and then still given some elementary tasks for DO after their exit that they have been making a royal mess out of.

I just caution people that if they ask Mark and Sarah any questions about TI and DO’s teachings they might likely get misinformation and even disinformation as they don’t know any better it seems and apparently don’t study what’s in the info DO and Crew left behind for us and are kind of stuck in 1987 when they were kicked out because they didn’t want to follow all the procedures that ironically included the lesson step of not knowing on any opinion that “I could be wrong” that they display having the same thinking about to date by many evidences and that DO has expressed in many of the very audio tapes they don’t want people to hear. They could easily swallow their false pride and admit to the mistakes they made if they think they made mistakes and then could truly out grow being embarrassed by my showing people the lies they have told the media about their leaving the group. Just admit it and move on. But since they have been telling this lie of leaving because they had this task to do or something else to do as they say it in different ways, they are greatly challenged to come out with the truth and accept their lumps from the humans they have told this false story to.

The Beyond Human video tapes are also transcribed as a part of the Heaven’s Gate Book that was published first on the Groups website in 1996/1997 and then given to another former student Oscody to publish in the Library of Congress but somehow Mark and Sarah took over that task from Oscody and published the book. That would have been okay, except when they published it they removed the Common law copyright page DO put with the original manuscript. That manuscript is still a part of the Heavengate.com website and that original copyright page is still on the copyright page and the book can be freely downloaded on the site. However, knowing Mark and Sarah these facts about the copyright page may be hidden away by removing that page from the website and the download, which if they do would be proof of tampering with evidence which I have well documented for the courts.

Sawyer’s critique of Mark’s Interview – Heaven’s Gate II: The Graduation by Bardo Methodology

Sawyer’s critique of Mark’s Interview – Heaven’s Gate II: The Graduation – 12-29-2022

The text of the Interview of Mark (Mrcody in TI and DO’s Group) by Niklas Göransson is included point by point with my critique. Here is the article link:

Heaven’s Gate II: The Graduation

A. Sawyer’s Introduction

I know some of what I will be responding to might be seen as nit picky and some of what I will be saying is giving my understanding and doesn’t necessarily negate what Mark (Mrcody) is saying. At the same time, it seems to me some of the more important perspectives and even events and instructions are being left out. I understand that at times each Student could have a different viewpoint or recollection, so at times I could be wrong, but I am trying to stick to what I experienced as best I can so that the reader can stand the best chance possible to garner what is most likely the most true or that there were multiple viewpoints that could even all be correct in some way. It’s not my intention to treat everything Mark says with suspicion. I don’t really care to be fault finding. That’s actually not one of the areas I’ve been told by TI and DO I needed to work on. And though I have said that certain things both Mark and Sarah (Srfody) have said over the years were untrue and even seemed like lies, I don’t know if they are lies or that they have repeated certain points of view and perspectives for so long that they believe they are being truthful or truthful enough.

DO talked about there existing “sins (missing the mark) of omission and sins of commission”. DO did not often refer to the records humans call scriptures but this quote does come from those Records. In this context Sins of Omission are when someone omits saying something that would provide a far more honest account that shows what really was said or done so needs to be said, while Sins of Commission in this context are when they say something against the Next Level Above Human. I believe this interview contains many examples of both sins of omission and commission against DO and against the Next Level Above Human and least of which against me and indirectly against Cathy and Carlan in Mark and Sarah’s lawsuit against us for freely sharing TI and DO’s fantastic information with the world. We know this is happening because the Lower Forces influlence people to keep the in depth understanding of what TI and DO and Crew were all about away from people and also to put a bad light on the entire story of TI and DO as after all if the ones running the Heaven’s Gate website for many years, given that task to among others to Mark and Sarah to keep fulfilling then many people think Mark and Sarah’s choices might be best reflecting of what TI and DO were all about. This seems to be the same Lower Forces stragegy used after Jesus left by trying to divert Jesus’ thunder to make a religion approved by the state out of it and then to become the religion called Christianity that gives Jesus a bad name because of their deceitful and manipulative and judgemental, dictatorial, condescending, murderous behaviors and ways.

What I have experienced in critiquing several of the email interviews Mark and/or Sarah have given over the years is that they often Omit what I feel are very important details. That seems to be the case here as well as it seems they downright add things, even directly talking about DO even saying things to Mark and Sarah that I don’t believe DO said that we can even show evidence that DO probably didn’t say. Sure they might have interpreted things DO said or twisted what he said to be something they could live with. But we have audio tapes of DO explaining things regarding Mark and Sarah’s being sent out of the Classroom that contradict what Mark says here in this interview. We also have Rkkody’s manuscript of the events that transpired after he and Mark and Sarah and Oscar (Oscody) received FedX packets from DO and Crew on March 25, 1997 that contradict big time Mark and Sarah’s version of that time. They don’t necessarily lie but they just omit talking about what happened in any detail or just get one thing wrong like the date which they can then say, Oh we just forgot about the date. They could have many excuses for what Mark says here that can be shown to be out right wrong or inaccurate.

The way the author of this article formatted his article was mostly starting the presumed email interview response from Mrcody (Mark) with a dash. I include the subject spoke about by the author as context. In my response I will refer to Mrcody as Mark and Srfody as Sarah, the first names they have used for years to date.

B. Start of Article by it’s author Niklas Göransson with Mark’s (Mrcody) answer followed by Sawyer’s (Swyody) replies:

Niklas:

The first part of this interview series chronicled Mrcody’s first twelve years in what we know today as Heaven’s Gate. We left off in the fall of 1987 as he went home to Phoenix, Arizona, to see his parents. At that point, Mrcody had not been back there since September 1975 when he made a quick visit to get his affairs in order before bidding his family goodbye. Along with him was his check-partner, Srfody.

1. Mark: (Mrcody):

– When returning to the families, we’d usually bring a Classmate we could bounce ideas off. They would help to clarify the situation if things got confusing. My family had grown used to me being away and thought of us as somewhat of a curiosity. We found ourselves distant from their views and way of life. We sat down, spoke with them, and tried to relay our story as clearly and positively as possible. We were kind and pleasant, as were they. Hoping to figure out what had happened to us, they asked careful questions. At times, it was like being examined – as if our views were unusual and it wasn’t really an issue whether we stayed or left. We felt the same way.

1. Sawyer (Swyody):

I was puzzled by this account of the event of Mark visiting his parents in 1987 as it indicates he was with Sarah. That would mean Sarah went on at least two trips to visit families as she went with me to visit my family at the same time period which in part I believe was because Sarah’s dad lived in the same town where my parents lived as Sarah and I were partners in the world before we both joined with TI and DO from the Waldport, OR meeting on September 14, 1975. I was on the airplane with her when I visited my family and briefly went to her house in Plainview, NY (but I was not really welcomed there so left before seeing anyone).

This 1987 visit was the second such visit we ever did as a Group. The first visit was around late September or early October of 1983 when TI was still in her vehicle. Like I said on the first visit if there were exceptions where more than one classmember went together to visit one’s family member, I didn’t know about it and I doubt that happened. On that 1983 visit I went alone to NY and others also went alone. I welcomed back to the Class a number of other students who came back alone because they went alone. This is important to me to make note of as with the many critics of TI and DO, I can hear some saying something to the effect of, “this is what cults do…they send someone else to keep tabs on the other, to keep them from saying something the leaders didn’t want them to say,” etc. So that blows that criticism out of the water that on the first visit most if not all went alone.

On the second visit in 1987, thus after TI left her vehicle in June of 1985, I recall DO saying he was sending other students to visit with our families so our parents and siblings, etc. could see the kind of people we were living with in the Class. Thus at my second visit in 1987 Ollody and Jwnody (and Srfody (Sarah)) visited with my parents and siblings and others at my parents house. I also went to visit with Jwnody’s mother and I believe Ollody and perhaps Sarah was there as well. It was a brief meeting with Jwnody’s mother. I didn’t actually talk with her nor any other members of her family. They wanted to be alone.

On that second visit I wasn’t with another classmate hardly at all. I was mostly alone. During the day I arrived I was alone with my parents and siblings talking. No other students were with me until Ollody and Jwnody and Srfody came to my parents house and stayed for maybe an hour. After that I was alone with them until my dad took me to Kennedy International Airport to return to Colorado.

Mark makes it sound like this was some kind of regular occurrence Perhaps he’s prone to exaggerating certain facts to appeal to those who accused us of neglecting family. I don’t know why he’d use the word, “usually” re: such visits as there was nothing “usual” about them. It certainly wasn’t “usual” to bring a Classmate either as we only had two visits in 19 years I was with Them and I thought only the second one included bringing another classmate.

I don’t know why Mark says the other classmate went with him or others to “bounce ideas off of” as on my two visits if I had wanted to bounce ideas off of someone I could just call the Group collect. In fact while on my visit I did call the group. On my visits there wasn’t much to coordinate. On the second visit when Sarah and I traveled by air together, I don’t recall we came back together. I didn’t need anyone to bounce ideas off of. Maybe for his visit he needed that help but I had no ideas to do anything else but what I did and for me it was easy to answer their questions.

I recall the primary instructions with both visits was that our effort was to try to “relieve any anxiety” of these family members by showing them some of what we were doing and that we were free to leave and were happy. (We had no prep to put up a false happiness front. If we weren’t happy TI and DO would have had us leave the Group well before that). I was genuinely happy in the Group so I didn’t have to try to put up some front of happiness. TI and DO did spend several hours meeting with us going over our questions.

Since I am speaking of the visits and in particular the first visit in 1983 here are some notes from audio tape 63 where TI and DO present the visit task potential and help students know how to handle certain questions, not to give them a script but to handle the task as a Member of the Next Level would in that circumstance that even involves a certain amount of strategy. After all, TI and DO knew loved ones were not going to really comprehend what their loved one’s had chosen and why as we were embarking on something that for many seems crazy. So some might still have great bitterness at their loved one’s choices and may even blame us for others in the families failing health as if those things would not have happened had we stayed close to that family unit. Yet TI and Do also didn’t feel to let someone talk to us in a derogatory manner but try to express understanding while knowing they had a right to their choices in life, in this case to be apart from what others might consider to be a normal family life. Many won’t believe much of what we believe. DO felt like Nancy Brown really grew from her suffering They didn’t say that lightly. They said they suffered because of the suffering of those family members but that it was needed for a student to detach from their human family and put the kind of effort needed for an extended time of bonding with the Family unit of their Older Members whom they recognized.

Ti and Do were concerned for our security so that anyone that did want to interfere with our choice to stay in the group couldn’t easily find us. They also knew because of the Network of parents that understandably were wanting to know about their loved ones, that we wanted to give them hope of further connection with us while not expecting a close relationship because of the major task each student needed to focus on to qualify to graduate into Next Level Membership. TI and DO even spoke about how anyone could do whatever they wanted to do in the Class but then laughed that if that’s what they wanted to do they wouldn’t find themselves staying in the Classroom but it was all about choices. They even said if a student found they wanted to stay with their family to just please send them a card or call to tell them about that choice.

Hearing Mark describing his visit, I wondered why would DO have Mark go to visit his family with Sarah. Well, it was possible Mark and Sarah were assigned partners at that time. DO, being in TI’s service, though TI was outside her vehicle, had an uncanny connection with TI to where he was just following instructions to choose to form certain partnerships with other students. I don’t think it was an accident that Sarah went with me and come to think of it, as it turned out Sarah being sent with Mark, as if there was an element of the same kind of test. In other words TI would have known that Mark and Sarah were forming their own relationship with one another. As soon as they got back from the visit Mark was showing his lack of abiding by the “I could be wrong” program and as Carlan (Crlody) told me he learned in the group (evidenced by DO in audio tapes) that they didn’t want to change their partnership when it came up and that was in part why they left together. Partnerships changed all the time. There were some times I didn’t want to change partnerships as some partners were too stressful to be with and with some partners there was chemistry that needed to be overcome thus would put one to the test to have certain partners. It would seem that Mark and Sarah were one such partnership and DO had instructions to put them together as a partnership to test what they each wanted, a relationship with one another or a relationship with him only.

Even though I knew nothing then of the relationship Mark and Sarah were forming, that even they might not have fully realized, it showed itself when they left the class together though nothing was ever said that I heard about why Sarah was leaving with Mark until Crlody expressed what he did to me.

So it seems Mark is either forgetting what he was developing with Sarah while still in the Class or has blocked what was happening or is directly lying to try to quell the truth to save certain embarrassments because I have been talking about them for years and telling my perspective as a witness to how and why and when they were sent out of the Class. Mark has denied everything I said about it. Could I misremember every aspect? I don’t think so as that was a major event and we have DO in audio tapes talking about how Mark and Sarah had been in relationship to one another and no longer looking to him so that’s the proof that my remembrance and Carlan (Crlody’s) remembrance are far more accurate than what Mark is saying here and that they have said to Gizmodo and other media groups about their departure. Mark’s way seems to be to just leave out most of the truth.

But Speaking of lying, the problem with doing so is forgetting what the lies they told were. Here is an example of their changing their story:

Mark and Sarah were reported to have said in one of the first email interviews they gave to the author in a piece for Gizmodo. They were asked why they left the group and they responded:

“We left the Group in September, 1987 because we were going to take care of some other things in our lives… Free will and choice are the cornerstone of what anyone does, especially in the Next Level. Individuals in the Group could come and go as those chose to do, and many did just that over the years. We had an open door policy, and it swung both ways. People came and went all the time.”

So Mark says they left to take care of some things in their lives. But I thought Mark said in this interview in point number 4; “I don’t know why Srfody was sent along with me, but she was expected back soon..”. Plus note Mark said “…we left to take care of things…” but he said, “Srfody was sent along with me…”. SENT is the keyword here. The third part to this one sentence is “…sent to take care of some things…”. Doesn’t that indicate foreknowledge of things to take care of before they left, things to take care of together? It makes it sound like they had a plan to leave?

Then Mark and Sarah said, “…Individuals in the Group could come and go as those chose to do, and many did just that over the years. We had an open door policy, and it swung both ways. People came and went all the time.”

I get it, they seem to want to tell the public they were not a cult that holds people against their will which is true totally. But then they go to far with that as no one who expected to stay in the group could come a go as they chose to. If someone walked out the door and went to the store and came back, they would have been challenged with either never doing that again or with leaving the group and being helped to leave. And then they might never have the opportunity to come back as for one after someone left, as a matter of security of not being found by investigators we learned were looking for us, we would literally move to a new location sometimes in the same city but even same state. There were people sent out of the Class in 1976 that TI and DO lost touch with unintentionally years later who never sought very hard to find the group while a few did look for us and found us and rejoined when they did and DO found out about them. That was the case with Drrody and Stlody and some others. So it’s another totally false statement to say, “People came and went all the time” and unless Mark and Sarah had both become very senile some time before this Gizmodo article was written in september 2014 they seem to be directly lying.

Moving on, I think the same thing about Sarah being sent with me to visit families – it was a test of whether each of us wanted to be with one another or not. DO also talked about Sarah having entertained an influence she didn’t know about that was trying to use her to get me to not join the Class and/or to get me out of the Class. On my visit with her accompanying me on the airplane at one point sitting next to her on the plane it felt very strange as if she was intentionally rubbing her leg on mine. Also on that visit we for some reason found ourselves at a Baskin and Robbins in what was once upon a time both our home town and it stirred a memory I had of being with her there when we first got together in that town in about 1970. I fluffed it off as I also did with her sitting so close on the plane.

This was not new to me as one time in the 1980’s Sarah and I were partners in the Juice Lab and during our being on duty we had to work together to measure ingredients into these Pink Drinks we were consuming. Sarah was standing right up against me at one point. I was a bit shocked by it but was afraid of saying something or of pulling away abruptly to send her a message. I just ignored it thinking she didn’t mean to do it. It was some years later that Srrody told me Sarah had done the same thing to him. I didn’t know where to put that in my head so just ignored it. But well before that it was Sarah who had gone into a closet with Alxody and were “feeling one another up” in there. That got reported to the entire Class. I’m not sure who first reported it but I think it was Alxody who couldn’t stand to keep it hidden. These things, when I began to think of them reminded me of when Sarah and I joined the Class in 1975. We left Waldport/Newport together with Ron and Judy to meet up with the Class in Fruita, at the Colorado National Monument. We first drove to eastern Oregon and on that first night sleeping together in our zip together sleeping bag that we’d used for years as a couple to sleep in I was surprise that she seemed to be coming on to me, something she hadn’t done for years as I was almost always the instigator of relations. This was after we had both decided to join and knew we were taking a vow of celibacy. So in audio tape 847 where DO talked about my leaving I was blinded to how Influences wanted me to go to Phoenix area to stay with Mark and Sarah who were in that area since being sent out of the Class together.

When I got to their house the first and only thing I remember Sarah saying to me for the couple weeks I was there was “none of that sex stuff”. I had no conscious desire to have sex with her. All the years of the Classroom, I no longer had any attraction to her but I guess from what DO said, there was some kind of Influence with me that wanted to go to where she was. That influence even seemed to blind me to that desire. At that time I was so confused with why I was giving into sensuality with myself that I’m not surprised I don’t recall much.

In November of 2021, when I visited with Mark and Sarah at their lawyers office, which was the result of Cathy’s efforts to arrange, to try to resolve the conflict we’d had for years of their allowing me/us to do the dissemination task in whatever way I/We felt to do it, I had zero interest in seeing her or relating to her in any way. In fact I was repulsed by both she and Mark because of how they were going against TI and DO’s wishes with the Audio Tapes and other of their property that they were supposed to only be the dividers of, not the exclusive caretakers, managers and disseminators of, while not ever really disseminating any of the audios or the other materials beyond the minimum of keeping up the website. I never minded what they didn’t do but I really minded their trying to keep myself and Crlody and Rkkody and now Cathy from doing our own dissemination task that includes having access to all the audio tapes especially.

I hesitated saying all this publicly but Mark in this interview is so full of partial truths and seemingly outright lies and deceit and manipulation of other’s view of history that I have to tell it like it is from my experience and perspective.

Niklas:

After the trip, Mrcody and Srfody resumed their service in one of the Class’ lodgings – a house, or ‘craft’, in the suburbs of Boulder. A few weeks later, both of them were out of the Group.

2. Mark:

– There has been a lot of misinformation and ink given to this topic, so we might as well put it on record and let people know what happened. Something had come up about me being assigned a new Out of Craft (OOC) task right around the same time we were deliberating whether to leave the area. This occurred only a few weeks before the move to Atlanta. We had just purchased a rear-drive Cadillac, and I realized that – in a mountainous, snowy area – it might not be able to handle the job it would be required to do. I mentioned this issue to some individuals, and it made its way back to Do that I was bringing up ‘problems’ where it wasn’t needed.

2. Sawyer:

Mark says he wants to “put it on record” what happened to clear up the misinformation and the way he goes about it is to be about as vague as one could get as to what exactly happened. Talking about his getting an OOC Task. Who was talking about it, Classmates? DO? And what was wrong with talking about it? What happened to his applying TI and DO’s teachings to be thorough and detailed in communications? What about that was an issue in their leaving the group? What it seems to be is one of the “straws that broke the camel’s back” in his using and trusting his own mind. It’s fine in the world to trust one’s own mind but being with our Older Members, at that time, Students needed to apply seeking to only trust the Minds of TI and DO or don’t stay in Their program/classroom, which is what happened.

Then the subject of the Cadillac… What about that was an issue in their leaving the group? And how was DO involved in any of this? Again it sounds like his issues here were between him and fellow students. DO was not such a leader/teacher that he believed what any student told him about any kind of conflict or disagreement. He and TI talked about that in meetings that are on tapes and I believe I witnessed that when I was assigned to be in SAT 3, which was when Mark and Sarah were still in the Class, though I was then mostly an observer. SAT 3 stood for Satellite 3 and referred to a task assignment for a group of Students who TI and DO worked on organizational needs of the group.

To me these two points without any details are, whether conscious or not, like a smoke screen to appear to be addressing the subject but then only giving it tiny lip service. If anything, to me it does the opposite of what he says he intends to do – to “set the record straight”.

Mark writes:

“the automobile issue raised the notion that it was part of the whole ‘I could be wrong’ Mrcody problem. Certain people brought up instances of how I, over time, had made statements which seemed to confirm this attitude.”

Yes, fellow classmates were bringing things up where Mark had made statements which seemed to confirm the attitude that Mark didn’t think he could be wrong about. This even stems from 1982 or so when TI and DO saw that he needed to be “muted” for becoming a “wagon master” and/or “trail boss” when there were no trail bosses in the Next Level so Students needed to learn to operate as crew members that don’t have one person calling the shots.

So regarding the Cadillac. I don’t know what happened with this. However I do know something about how things worked in the group. For instance if Mark was on the crew that was looking for a car to buy or assessing a car DO was considering buying then no one would have anything to say about Mark talking about it or the way he was talking about it was with confidence in his own assessment thus not like a member of the Next Level would think or talk.

However, I’d guess he wasn’t on the car buying crew. He’s not providing enough details of what the problem was. Perhaps he felt to say something because as a member of SAT 3, (a crew who were all responsible to bring to Links attention things that might be a breach of security or in this case safety in driving a rear wheel vehicle in a snowy area. If he felt that responsibility then if not on the crew his recourse was to write a note to DO about it. Even if they bought a car that was the wrong decision, there is most always a grace period where one could return it. When someone is very sure of themselves, they often have a lot of trouble restraining themselves.

Mark writes, “We had just purchased a rear-drive Cadillac…” So this was put into the past tense. Thus it seems the deal had been made and I’m sure DO was very much in on all the details of the deal. DO was a 100% hands on leader. Often Lggody was instrumental in buying cars as he was tall and with white hair and in his 50’s probably at that time. He also had a strong air of a business person because in the world he was a successful horse rancher and real estate developer and family man and I’ve heard had political inclinations. Also in the Class at times he worked as a car salesman. So he knew how to talk the trade.

Now Mark could have been privy to talk about the car they were intending to purchase. So Mark reports he “mentioned this issue to some individuals” (regarding it being a rear wheel drive car in a snowy area). It really sounds like Mark may have been putting his nose into another Crews business. He had that tendency from what TI and DO said in audio tape 37 I think it was. Again there could have been a way to bring things up but if he wasn’t presenting it according to procedure to preface it with something of a equivalence to “I could be wrong” then he was missing the lessons step.

This all seems to reinforce the idea that he did leave because he had too much self confidence in his own opinion and didn’t know when he could be wrong with his opinions. That’s not the way of a Next Level Crew Member so he was called out on it and didn’t feel to change that about himself thus the only recourse DO had was to send him to be outside the Classroom until he might want to change and then he could return. He never did want to return to the Classroom yet at this time in 2021 we’ve even seen evidence that he thinks he is a member of the Heaven’s Gate crew left behind to carry on Their legacy, while keeping others away from Their vast audio tape library and other materials except for token minimum maintenance of the web site – answering some emails and giving certain materials to media groups, etc.

So this seems to be what Mark and Sarah have done. They came to believe that they and only they had all authority over all the left behind information and they became ready to sue anyone who breached their claimed authority.

Niklas:

I’ve come across a number of claims that Mrcody’s departure stemmed from his inability to adhere to a lesson step called ‘I could be wrong’. This was a technique designed to decrease reliance on the self – and one’s own desire to be right – by overriding both soft and hard-wired circuits of the brain. Instead, complete trust should be placed in one’s Older Members, which is Next Level nomenclature for a superior.

3. Mark:

– Things spiraled out of control until we had a support meeting on September 22, 1987. Do realized that the idea of me getting an OOC task had not come from him but from Classmates who were unaware of what the future held. We got past this matter, but the automobile issue raised the notion that it was part of the whole ‘I could be wrong’ Mrcody problem. Certain people brought up instances of how I, over time, had made statements which seemed to confirm this attitude. Needless to say, it was a difficult meeting for me. Afterwards, Do wanted to speak to me privately, and we did so for a while. He could see that I did not want to go, but circumstances were forcing things to a head. Srfody and I left the following day.

3. Sawyer:

-Help Wanted Meeting for Mark:

Regarding what Mark called “a support meeting,” I recalled the meeting name was being called by TI and DO and Crew a “Help Wanted Meeting” which I attended on Sept 22nd 1987, (that I recall Overseers, Jwnody and Chkody called for Mark, that I’m sure DO knew about though as was procedure Help Wanted Meetings were never attended by TI and/or DO, though there was an assigned note taker, (often Mllody and/or Sngody who sent them, or in this case sent DO, since TI wasn’t in her vehicle any longer at that time, a report of what transpired.

The way I recall that meeting, Mark sat in the front of the big room and students who had some ideas of how to help Mark made their suggestions. The procedure for the recipient was to thank the students for their input. I don’t recall Mark saying anything. He just seemed to take it and Classmates were not rude or condescending to him but certainly were direct, while knowing and expressing they could be wrong about how they were suggesting they’d been taught to help someone with this or any other problem in the Classroom.

I don’t know how thankful Mark was for what he was offered, as of course he was aware of what others would say as advise, but one never knows what one had ceased to apply so the meetings could help. Over the 19 years in the Class I would say there were probably 4 or 5 of these kinds of meetings.

-Mark writes:

“Do realized that the idea of me getting an OOC task had not come from him but from Classmates who were unaware of what the future held.”

This is very odd. It is possible that Overseers of the Craft, at that time I think, were Jwnody and Chkody and as was often the case that I witnessed could have tasks to suggest partnership changes to DO and could have had, even an ongoing task to make suggestions to DO of who might get an OOC-Task. (OOC stood for “Out of Craft”. Since we referred to our residence as a spacecraft, a new term for our house – to help prepare our Minds for literally moving into a spacecraft, though we didn’t decorate the craft to look like a spacecraft. It also sort of turned off the vocabulary we used before entering TI and DO’s Class).

So I suppose Mark could have become aware or overheard Overseers talking about his getting an OOC Task. But there is no way any students would have come up with the idea on their own unless DO had opened that door. I mean DO could have been talking about his concern that our income was not as good as it needed to be to match expenses, so I suppose some students could have considered that idea of adding to the OOCT personal and talked about it out loud ahead of mentioning it to DO, but by in large no Students would even talk about that without having the OK from Headquarters (DO). The area of a craft that was where the SAT 3 Crew did most of their work was very small. It had a dining room size table in the middle. There could be several different tasks going on at the same time though some in SAT 3 would go to a rest chamber (bedroom) if they needed privacy. I believe I remember that if someone was doing a task even right next to you that you weren’t a part of, you would make a point to not pay attention to what they were doing. You would proceed with your own tasks. I know that Mark was very keen to what was going on in SAT 3 and the Craft which as a part of SAT 3 was part of his task but that TI and DO indicated he’d taken it to an extreme to even seek to know how Srrody brushed his teeth, if I recall, though perhaps DO wasn’t being exact in saying that on an audio tape.

By Mark saying “Do realized that the idea of me getting an OOC task had not come from him but from Classmates who were unaware of what the future held.” is pretty strange. Of course if DO didn’t instigate the idea He would have known he didn’t instigate the idea.

Then Mark makes it sound to me that Mark is insinuating that only he or only a few knew of the pending move. It’s hard to believe that Overseers wouldn’t have known as much as he about any impending move. Again as Mark does so often he says things that seem to show himself in a good light rather than take the correction of admitting his own mistakes and getting on with it. Instead he frequently puts the blame on Classmates for not being aware and on DO for not having “realized” something.

So he brings this up as an example of “things spiraled out of control” but then says, “We got past the matter…”. Who is “We” in this statement? Wouldn’t it either be DO and/or he and/or certain Classmates? And what about this pertained to his leaving the Group, if “they” got past it?

But perhaps it does have something to do with his leaving in his mind as it sounds like he was putting his head into things he had no business doing as it wasn’t his task to be concerned about his getting an OOC Task or not. A Student of TI and DO wants to do whatever tasks they are given to do. It doesn’t have to make sense to us. Even if Students stimulated the idea in DO’s Mind, DO wouldn’t ever take that as gospel. He would take it to TI (who at that time was outside her vehicle but who DO felt was close to him at times). He had a real connection with TI. Nothing imaginary about it.

This seems to show Mark is in denial that the “I could be wrong” lesson step was in fact seen by Students (and DO) as a big “problem” for him. To me this sounds a little sarcastic to say; “but the automobile issue raised the notion that it was part of the whole ‘I could be wrong’ Mrcody problem. That is how I did remember it all, that Mark’s Help Wanted Meeting was because he didn’t want to always used “I could be wrong” as a preface to stating a judgment of some kind. There were extremes to the use of that phrase but TI and DO didn’t spell them all out.

To me, Mark makes it sound as if he believes the fellow students were making it all up. In many organizations there could have been contention between members, and there was some in our group of course but DO was aware of everything because it was likely that each student would report to him the difficulties they had so he could help them and others and thus even help the entire Group get past their conflicts.

Mark admits a “support meeting” was held for him. Part of the structure of those meetings was to offer the one requested the meeting or assigned to have a meeting help in the area they requested it. The meeting was designed for fellow students to try to recall all the ways Ti and Do taught to deal with lesson steps.

It seems that for Mark to recognize that he had that “I could be wrong” problem is too embarrassing to admit. Since Mark is very intelligent in some ways and a very quick thinker and is very witty, he may think so much of himself that having anyone offer him correction is perhaps extremely difficult to hear or accept, so he seems to put off his mistakes on others like Rkkody in 1997 big time and to date, on Crlody (Carlan) then and to date, on me (Swyody) big time for many years and to date and Jhnody, of late and even my partner Cathy, but filing lawsuits against us all (except not yet on Jhnody). And DO says in audio tapes that Sarah (Srfody) added to his inflation of himself (paraphrased).

Should he admit to the events of his own making that led to DO sending him out of the Class further f actualizes that he had and by this very interview and many other actions that he still has that same problem and perhaps even more than before. It may be that the only way he can think of to try to keep his egotistical image alive and Sarah’s is by attempting to discredit me and the rest of us who were mentioned above. He and Sarah seem to look down on us in various ways as if they are such great servants of TI and DO. Even though they probably would deny all of this as they have denied aspects of it that I have asked them about directly years ago but more and more seemed to be right on as one of the explanations for their wanting to keep people from hearing TI and DO’s own words about them in the audio tapes.

I believe the Next Level’s TI and DO literally put them to the test and though they have done some of the tasks they were given involving handling some of their mail, and keeping up the web site and sending out some video tapes and the bear minimum of audio tapes, on the main task it appears they have been failing from adhering to what DO actually asked them to do, case in point being stated in their Letter from DO and Crew stating, “any items of value [in storage] that are retrievable by you be divided among those who feel inclined to disseminate our [DO and The Classes] information”. They say they intended on doing that but weren’t until Swyody and Crlody stopped and gave them back all the audio tapes we got from Rkkody and of late from Jhnody.

This is a huge example of how the Lower Forces can slip into us to have us literally act like we support TI and DO while persecuting their servants who want to spread their Truth which is the primary task at this time that every believer can choose to accept in service to TI and DO.

DO would have not permitted such a Help Wanted Meeting unless he felt there was good reason for the meeting. DO and Ti were very hands on leaders/teachers. And they were not at all easily fooled by students and knew that some students reports were not believed and so they would often seek out the person who a student made a claim against to see the facts.

Again, where are the details that led up to his thinking about leaving the class or did DO bring up his leaving when he met with DO after the Help Wanted meeting? I know when I reported to DO how I wasn’t following certain procedures, DO asked me, on two separate occasions what I wanted to do about it. I suggested calling my own Help Wanted meeting. The second time it came up, I said to DO, “I guess I have to leave” and he said okay, “you want to get more objective”. Then he told me to give the phone to another classmate and he told them to tell the others in the group “not to try to talk Swyody out of leaving the class because he knew what he was doing”.

In the case of Mark, what were the exact circumstances that forced things to a head? – the talk about OOC Tasks? – the talk about his inappropriate suggestions about the Cadillac they (Do and Crew) bought, perhaps not consulting with him about, and/or the other things brought up to him in the Help Wanted meeting?

DO was in no way a trivial person. He valued each student. I know this from personal experience working with DO as an Overseer and even being assigned to help Hvvody and Rthody when they were contemplating leaving. This last statement from Mark makes it sound to me like he believes DO based sending him out of the Group on a whim, because of these few things students said Mark said.

And if Mark truly didn’t want to leave, why is it that, from Mark’s remembrance, after he alleges that DO indicated to him that he (DO) had “made a mistake” – since DO was the one who sent him out of the Group, and said that DO “understood that the cure had been worse than the disease and called many days in a row to get us to come back,” which makes DO look somewhat desperate to get him back in the group, MARK DID NOT RETURN. Why didn’t Mark and Sarah return? And why is it that I remember DO giving Mark and Sarah a car and their being upset that it was the worse car we had at the time. Maybe I don’t remember that right but perhaps that’s one of the many details Mark leaves out here.

Niklas:

Like Mrcody, Srfody joined the Group after a September 1975 meeting in Waldport, Oregon – a gathering which saw about twenty people bid friends and relatives farewell and commit wholeheartedly to overcoming their mammalian behavior Today, the two of them serve as proprietors of the Heaven’s Gate website and all intellectual property left behind by the Class.

Sawyer: I could be wrong but believe I recall DO saying in a tape that there were 34 who joined from having attended the Waldport, OR meeting they gave on September 14, 1975.

4. Mark:

– I don’t know why Srfody was sent along with me, but she was expected back soon. They expressed as much to her by phone on September 24, but she could see how devastated I was from being asked to leave. She stayed. Within days, Do realized that a mistake had been made and asked us to return at once. He understood that the cure had been worse than the disease and called many days in a row to get us to come back. Do and his helpers had already left for Atlanta to perform some groundwork before the move, so those still in Boulder would’ve heard nothing about this.

4. Sawyer:

Mark writes that he didn’t know why Srfody was sent along with him. Right there his wording indicates he was “sent” to be outside the Group as opposed to leaving on his own accord as many others did. He also said in point #3 that “He [DO] could see that I did not want to go, but circumstances were forcing things to a head.”

But there is another part to this that puzzles me. I asked Carlan (Crlody) what was said while he was in the Group about Mark and Sarah’s leaving and if I recall accurately he told me their leaving had something to do with Mark and/or Sarah not wanting to change partnerships they had with one another.

I had no sense that Srfody planned to return. In fact, when it was settled that they were both going to be leaving the Class, DO instructed us say something to both of them. We lined up to take turns to say it to them. What we were instructed to say was something to the effect of, “You are welcome to come back if you both want to follow all our procedures”. If Sarah was “expected back soon” why did DO have us say that to both of them at that same time, in person.

Why be general, to say, “They expressed as much to her by phone on September 24…”. Who was “they” and what did they express to her? Did they ask her to come back or not?

Then Mark says, “she could see how devastated I was from being asked to leave”. Isn’t that a contradiction from being “sent along with me” to being in the next sentence saying they were “asked to leave”. Maybe Mark is not being that particular with the words he chooses here but given the vast amount of things he says that have little to no truth to them, words are all we got to show his contradictions so to hopefully arrive at the truth.

I could be wrong but they really seem to be doing a disservice to TI and DO at this point.

I would not be hardly talking about this if he and Sarah hadn’t waged this huge lawsuit against me, Cathy and Carlan attempting to devastate us financially for playing some audio tapes on my live-stream and selling some T shirts with images on them that they illegally trademarked and copyrighted, having no documents at all (according to Judge Lisa Guy Schall) to show that DO and Crew wanted that sort of thing done to their images and writing and audios and video’s or they would have done that themselves.

But pertaining to Sarah (Srfody) choosing to stay with a student (Mark) who didn’t want to follow all the procedures of DO’s Classroom, instead of returning to that same Class is in my view nothing short of either a lie or a gross mis-construction of what happened and a complete avoidance of taking their own responsibility for why they were literally “sent” out of the Class because of their own choices.

This would have been unheard of for a student of one’s Older Member choosing to leave their Older Member (DO) to be with another student that was asked/told to leave – if they didn’t want to follow all the procedures. Reading this in this interview causes me to reflect on the many initial students who left the Class, how and why. I don’t know all the “why’s” exactly but I doubt anyone left to go with another student. This was a unique circumstance.

DO has spoken in a number of audio tapes about Mark and Sarah’s being sent out of His Class and how they were looking to one another and not to him. If DO had said to Sarah to leave with Mark to help him, I would think DO would have told Mark and others that he sent Sarah to do such a task but I never heard that then nor heard it in any of the tapes we have about their leaving. Sarah may have said that to Mark or to one of DO’s helpers on the telephone I guess possibly to DO on the telephone but, by the evidence of what DO said in audio tapes the idea of Sarah being sent with Mark never happened.

In fact, it seems Mark giving this interview where he attempted to smear my reputation with claims that were not true the way he said it, may be a last ditch effort to try to save face to give people the impression that I’m making all this up regarding my first hand witness testimony of the events surrounding he and Sarah’s being sent out of the Class.

But if that strategy to try to discredit me as a reliable witness in some respect was on his mind for this interview his strategy is shot to hell because we have all the audio clips of what DO was thinking and doing in relationship to Mark and Sarah’s even going against DO in some respects. There appears to be a tape or two not available around that time. Some may be missing. For instance Mark said there were 1061 audio tapes. We have about 930. The 930 go into 1997. If the 131 or so tapes Mark still has were all recorded in 1997 as it appears then that would have meant DO made a tape at least every day from January to March 22nd when they began to leave. That is very unlikely but I’d love to know for sure if Mark would allow people to have them. What is he hiding. I’m not afraid to hear what’s on any of the tapes. There is one about my leaving that was difficult to hear but I’ve heard it or read the transcript 3 times now.

Niklas:

A meeting was called two weeks after the Group’s relocation to Peachtree, Atlanta. Do announced that he, ever since the move – and to his great dismay – could no longer feel Ti’s presence. Ti was Do’s Older Member, and he relied on her for guidance. Ti’s human container expired in 1985, so their correspondence was restricted to the ethereal plane. Consequently, the students quit their new jobs, packed up, and left for Colorado again.

5. Mark:

– To this day, many who remain from that time erroneously think we were kicked out because of ‘I could be wrong’. This became a watershed moment and Do realized that things needed to be corrected. But Srfody and I remained in Phoenix – not out of rejecting Do’s request, but because the Classroom still had these misunderstandings and none of them were being addressed. The back and forth went on into October, but things turned quiet after the new year. We resumed contact in late 1988.

5. Sawyer:

Again, Mark is blaming both DO and their Classmates for the reasons they were sent out of the Group. And he says nothing about perhaps being “wrong” in his observation/interpretation. I don’t know if this is deliberate, a story he and/or Sarah conjured up to try to combat the truth that I and many other former class members know or if they have told themselves this story for so long that that’s the way they remember it. I suspect it’s a little of both. Their noses are growing very, very long with what they are directly insinuating and their justifying themselves for getting kicked out. And the saddest part is that they have told Cathy and I that they believe both TI and DO are Older Members from the Next Level Above Human.

Cathy as a new believer in TI and DO and anyone else who has listened to their audio tapes and read their materials can also see right through this smokescreen. Cathy said to me in response to this fifth statement from Mark, that if “DO realized that things needed to be corrected He would have corrected things. DO would have held a meeting and/or spoke to the Class-members who according to Mark, “still had these misunderstandings” and blames DO once again, saying that “none of them [the misunderstandings] were being addressed”. And if there were misunderstandings among class members, since they were no longer in the Class how did they know DO didn’t address the alleged misunderstandings. Mark and Sarah assume so much and are taking no responsibility for their own failures as Class Members demonstrating exactly why they were sent out of the Class in the first place.

In other words they are saying DO failed to lead the class members That seems to mean Jwnody and Chkody and/or others were guilty of misunderstandings since they were the Overseers who called for the Help Wanted Meeting Mark talks about here. But Jwnody and Chkody and/or others were never “muted” for being a Trail Boss. Mark and Sarah might want to listen to audio tape 037 AB from 12/17/1982 – particularly the part that sis summarized in the log file that says, “Older Member is right no matter what – don’t compete or think you remember better – take the blame, wouldn’t blame them.”

For those that balk at this idea that the Older Member is right no matter what, it happens to be a fact because humans are all different in their capacity to perceive who is literally significantly Beyond them because most humans judge one another based on their financial success, looks, degrees, societal position, popularity, fame, intellect as they perceive it and/or Spiritual Stature. What many don’t know is what they often don’t know about reality and how Souls are real and have been here before and have experienced many things in previous lifetimes that others have not, which enables them to know more about certain realities and no longer have much if any desire to climb social or career ladders.

TI and DO, (The Souls who took the human vehicles and used those names) really were from The Evolutionary Kingdom Level Above Human, they didn’t bring into their conscious Minds all they knew for the sake of the task, but their perceptions were Beyond Human. It’s like working under the Captain of a ship. If a third class seaman in the Navy competes with the Captain they will have to be removed from that crew so they don’t interfere with the functions the Captain is in charge of. We who became students of TI and DO recognized TI and DO as our Admiral and Captain. We could have left at any time if we didn’t want to abide by all the procedures they gave us to follow. The Classroom always was an Next Level Astronaut Training Program. So when Mark and Sarah didn’t want to follow the procedure of acknowledging that they at any time “could be wrong” in their opinions, they ceased qualifying to be in the training program thus DO had to send them out of the Class until they chose to abide by all the Procedures.

Niklas:

How was your experience of re-integrating into society?

6. Mark:

– We used our skills from the Class and applied them to various human projects, all of which we excelled in. We soon bought autos and a house as we advanced in our careers. We’ve built many successful businesses from scratch by now. Do noted that we had pushed higher and further than any other former members. While there was never much emphasis on the human experience, he did inform us that applied effort and a concentrated desire to serve were Next Level attributes noticeable in any endeavor Our intention was still to serve the Next Level.

6. Sawyer:

Listen to this ego building, claiming that “Do noted that we had pushed higher and further than any other former members.” I’d like to have heard exactly what DO said that Mark has interpreted like that. We have it on audio tape that years before this DO felt Rkkody was in much better shape in relationship to the Next Level because he still recognized and wanted to look to his Older Members. I guess Mark may want people to believe they changed from 1987 through 1990’s in regards to DO and perhaps they did change, but if we look at what they are doing now, it’s clear that they have not changed and may have even gotten far, far worse in looking to their own Minds rather than to TI and DO’s Mind.

“Pushed higher”? What does that mean to DO – in making money…that wouldn’t be a criteria DO respected yet in point number 6, Mark he’s talking about purely human project advancements. “Pushed…further” in what direction? Okay, in the next sentence he clarifies that DO didn’t put “much emphasis on the human experience”. What was DO’s emphasis on then?

This to me seems to be yet another one of those exaggerations and even a type of filing in the blanks and attributing it to DO saying something. Another example of this is when Mark told me with Cathy as my witness that I also have in an email to Cathy that “Ti would slap you aside the head” if she heard that I got on an airplane while not vaccinated. None of us were ever vaccinated in the Classroom, though it wasn’t so prevalent in those years that I ever heard about. Maybe he said that because TI was a nurse in the world. But TI also didn’t see doctors as the “gods” many seem to think about them. There is a long list of these kinds of things they seem to think they can say with confidence that TI and/or DO said or would say and anyone that really knows TI and DO’s Mind in the least knows on many subjects they were not to be second guessed accurately.

And if they have built “many successful businesses”, maybe that explains why they are spending thousands of dollars on suing me and Cathy for selling some T shirts with the Older Member picture Ollody painted on them, that they illegitimately copyrighted though they had no proof of the group giving them the rights to that painting. They are also suing me and adding Cathy for audio’s I played before I met Cathy and for playing audio tapes of TI and DO on my live-stream on YouTube: 3spm after I met Cathy and Cathy tried to broker a deal between us to allow me/us to play them publicly The lawsuit includes trying to get us to pay over 75,000 at least in statuary and punitive damages as there are no actual damages because they have never sold anything from the Class, they say, besides the Book.

Re: their businesses, I wonder how many is “many”. I know they have a business that is like a Mail Boxes, Etc for many years so that’s probably one.

Niklas:

The Group began exploring new ground after Mrcody and Srfody’s departure. In the ’88 Update – The UFO Two and Their Crew, a manifesto of sorts, they describe a project called the Anonymous Shopaholics Celibate Church: an outreach program for chronic sexaholics seeking relief from their affliction. That was a wild idea, I must say. Considering how many former students mention celibacy as the most challenging aspect of purging themselves of human patterns, having raging nymphomaniacs living under the same roof sounds adventurous to the extreme.

7. Mark:

– Anonymous Shopaholics was a repackaging of the Next Level understanding for those humans who could most relate to it. The ‘88 Update was a mixture of different ideas Do thought might be relatable to the public. It sounded unusual but never added up to real people coming in. It did not have any effect, and there were no new members. But the Celibate Church did gain popularity within the Group and lasted a long time into the 1990s. It was a useful tool to evaluate the endless sexual games played on this planet – and for those who wanted off the ride. It brought up the notion that being non-sexual wasn’t such a bad idea for some on Earth. It made the abnormal seem normal, so those rid of carnal desires would not feel like freaks.

7. Sawyer:

Mark was not in the Classroom when DO had us begin to interface with groups like Sexahaulics Anonymous and Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous and others, mostly based in California but having chapters in Colorado and other places. It was DO’s next consideration of who He felt TI would have him interface with. His effort in that regard basically fell on mostly deaf ears.

Where did he get the description of DO and Crews effort to reach out to members of these groups as a “Repackaging of Next Level Understanding?” They were never supportive of human sexuality for those in the Classroom that hoped to evolve Beyond Human in this lifetime.

Since Mark wasn’t in the Class after 1987, I understand why he didn’t know why DO wrote the ’88 Update – The UFO Two and their Crew. It was to set the record straight in the many rumors that got reported by the media as facts mostly from 1975 to date.

It’s a report of he and TI’s meeting. At that time, Mark didn’t know that DO wasn’t seeking new members though he was experimenting with various projects in case there were some in the human kingdom who would still identify with what He and TI had been teaching. It wasn’t supposed to “add up to real people coming in”. Mark needs to listen to the audio tapes from that time to learn how DO was thinking if he’s going to portray himself as a know it all authority of what TI and DO taught and intended to be done with their information after they left.

Mark says, “it sounded unusual but never added up to real people coming in”. Wow, this sounds to me like he is faulting DO for not coming up with something that could “bring real people in”. What makes him think DO cared about “bringing real people in” or for that matter “fake people in”…that’s a joke as what’s a “real” person to Mark? I don’t think he knows how he sounds and what kind of thoughts he has that have seemed to become his own that are hyper critical of the very person he tells me and others he is a student of…namely DO. Or is he a student of what has become a facsimile of DO. There is a great deal of evidence from his mouth and actions of the later case.

Mark says about “’88 Update” that “it sounded unusual…” He’s got to be kidding, it is as unusual as can be and no different from what He and TI brought to the world that was also very highly unusual. And like I just said to equate that “unusual” nature to the material “never added up to real people coming in” seems to totally miss the point of ’88 Update. Of course it was designed to tell the truth with the hope that some would recognize it as something that made sense to them. DO didn’t come up with anything in it, I don’t think that TI hadn’t also felt before she exited. I wonder if Mark is insinuating once again that DO got off the track in some way after TI left. Maybe that’s part of why he seems to look up to Ben Zellers thinking that I believe has a similar view to it along with many others. Mind you I respect Ben Zeller and understand that he is approaching the subject as an academic but that doesn’t mean I agree with any of what he arrived at.

Mark should either listen to all the audio tapes from that time or ask me about what actually happened as the way he says things to me is so misleading. I don’t think he’s trying to do that but I think he just doesn’t know better.

There was no “popularity within the Group” involved in the Classroom. DO, as the Older Member ran things by Students and by that time sought out Students input on potential next steps. Those next steps almost always had to do with finding ways we might interface with the public again since 1975 and 1976. Yes, the idea of having a “church” in the title was mostly all that was about, as well as the word “celibate” in the literature they were planning on using IF they went ahead with such a project. As I was there then and into the 90’s I do recall having the documentation that we even sent to family members called, ASCC standing for “Anonymous Sexahaulics Celibate Church”. But even with that title that didn’t change anything that we were doing. We still operated with the same objectivity and had no religiosity. We didn’t have any religious symbolism on the walls nor Space based pictures. We had no ceremonies or rituals or special clothing to dress up in. Mark is saying that “popularity” of having a “church” lasted into the 1990’s, which is not at all what took place. In fact by the 90’s we were more inclined to try to interface with the people who surrounded the UFO phenomena subject matter. In 1992 DO had some student partnerships make video’s for the public. I was partnered by DO with Jwnody to make a video. From the video’s several partnerships made, DO asked that Classroom to kind of rate who did the best job and that might be the partnership who DO was considering sending out to talk to Christians, etc. The video Jwnody and I made was selected and DO approved of it but then felt he didn’t feel we were right to do that task. That’s when he decided to do the task that resulted in the Beyond Human – The Last Call video series.

To me Mark talks about this the way an academic talks about things they hardly know anything about saying about the Celibate Church project examination that, “It was a useful tool to evaluate the endless sexual games played on this planet – and for those who wanted off the ride.” What “evaluation?” DO wasn’t evaluating human sexuality. He knew from the start that there was no sexuality in the Next Level so there couldn’t be any in the Classroom who were trying to measure up to Next Level standards. People should listen to the audio tapes and they would see so much of what I’m saying for themselves.

Plus it wasn’t just about becoming non-sexual. After all there are all kinds of religious monks and nuns, what DO joked at times calling them “nonks and muns” who are celibate but are addicted to their sense of piety and being special to be full time religionists, getting off on others seeing them and seeing themselves as holy, etc.

I doubt Mark and Sarah listen to audio tapes. Maybe that’s another reason they don’t want anyone to actually hear those 1061 tapes as they don’t want people to see all the things they have been saying that are clearly not from TI and DO’s Mind. To pretend they are the ultimate authority of Heaven’s Gate seems to be the illusion they wish to keep up just because they received the task to handle the Groups mail and divide the contents of storage (audio tapes, etc.) among those who were inclined to disseminate their information. In Judge Lisa Guy Schall’s decision she even shows how Sarah even admitted that she and Mark’s task was to “distribute” videos.

Judge Lisa Guy Schall also wrote in her decision that of the information they provided to the court, to try to show they should have all the Groups possessions, which included one or more of the Letters they received from DO and Crew, distribution was the only task they were given (aside from handling of mail and a few fiduciary responsibilities. They then made it into their little empire dictating who could have what materials and what images and video’s could be shown.

The name we used in the 90’s was Total Overcomers Anonymous – TOA which can be seen on the original video tape jackets of the Video series DO and Crew (including me on the crew) called “Beyond Human – The Last Call”. One can see me being used in about 5 of the 12 sessions as a helper for DO. It may not look like we are doing much to help DO but the fact that those assigned that task were very positive minded made us good batteries and buffers against the negative influences that might otherwise try to interfere with DO.

I agree with the last sentence that the effort to reach out to those in those kinds of groups was seen as trying to help them go even further to end their sexual addictions and feel good about doing so. But what DO learned from having sent Pmmody and other students to some of these group’s meetings was that many resented the Class members acting like they know how to overcome the sexual addiction. And how some just want to keep thinking of themselves as addicts rather than totally cut off their sexuality which is harder to do. I recall in an audio tape DO talks about some of these groups trying to get addicts to have a normal sex lives when DO was hoping some would want no sex life anymore because they were recognizing it was behavior they were outgrowing.

Niklas:

There is one remark in particular from the ‘88 Update I find confusing: ‘We also thought that we could help AIDS victims realize that their problem could actually be their blessing.’

8. Mark:

– Ti always regarded this disease as a way of having a section of the human population realize that the reduction – or elimination – of sexual activity can clear the mind and bring it closer to the evolutionary movement towards the Next Level. She stated this in 1984, back when Boy George was more popular. His move towards androgyny may have confused the general public, but it was a step closer to having no gender roles or sexual activity at all. Ti believed AIDS offered people a chance to pause and consider relating to their fellow human beings in ways completely devoid of sensuality.

8. Sawyer:

I will have to review tapes that talk about AIDS before commenting on what Mark said. What Mark said doesn’t seem far off from what TI and DO taught about a disease helping someone overcome the behavior that contributed to one’s illness.

Niklas:

At some point in the late 80s, while residing in Poudre Canyon, Colorado, Do underwent a bout of Rocky Mountain spotted fever which reportedly dragged him to death’s door. Do later recounted to students how he came so close that he only needed to let go in order to exit his vehicle. But as much as he longed to be reunited with Ti, his tasks on Earth were as of yet incomplete. In 1990, the Class left all three Colorado crafts and resumed life in the outdoors, roaming from state to state. For a while, they camped in Phoenix, where they performed a thirteen-day water fast in preparation for a presumed UFO pick-up in the desert.

9. Mark:

– We heard about the spotted fever episode but have no details. We were also aware of the desert fast but did not participate – it was a difficult experience, from reports back. We did not meet with them physically around this time; for security reasons, both parties kept to themselves. We seriously contemplated a return, but the same issues might have resurfaced. Do spoke with both of us, yet the opportunity did not present itself in a workable manner. It was tempting, though.

9. Sawyer:

I wonder what Mark means by saying they got “reports back”. I know this can seem picky but the words people use show how their minds work and contain insinuations and open doors to misinterpretation that leads to misinformation, especially with the subject matter of Heaven’s Gate. So to me those two words can make it sound like DO was reporting to them. Maybe there was some of that happening as DO may have wanted to keep them abreast of some things we were doing in the Class so if they wanted to they could do some version of it, since over a number of phone calls to them, they still wanted to stay in touch. Other dropouts didn’t want any contact. I’m embarrassed to say that was me but I’m glad to say I didn’t remain in that frame of mind, though didn’t shift without their help in ways that included many dreams including them that occurred after they left their human vehicles. In fact I think it’s clear that my lack of wanting to stay in touch was probably the main reason DO didn’t include me in the list of dropout students who would receive a Fed X packet from Them on March 25th or thereabouts. Mark seems to hold this against me and seems to resent that when I did surface publicly standing up for TI and DO I participated in a great deal of press while they were hiding according to Rkkody. I understand the stress of having their Postnet business carry the address that was on the Heaven’s Gate website but they had agreed with DO to provide that address to the public, though it seemed the timing and probably method of the Groups exit took them totally by surprise.

I participated in the fast. The first day was a fast on air only all day long. The next 12 or 13 days was a fast on water only. It was difficult. No one was harmed by it. Some of us went into it thinking we might exit our vehicles that way. I believe we had just moved out of Albuquerque and sold all our houses of furnishings in estate sales in Albuquerque and Sante Fe and got re-outfitted in Trailers and Tents to go into the dessert to live again. I believe I recall DO saying he made a mistake to have the Class break the fast by eating tangerines which were plentiful at that time in Yuma, AZ where we were living in trailers on BLM or National Forest lands. However, I bet it was a test for some so perhaps no mistake at all. DO said at one point when he talked about how he had used an old credit card to rent a car in late 1993 not knowing how they would pay for charge that it was a mistake to do but that they had instructions to do it. To me that means he was willing to make mistakes for the sake of the lessons Students would get when they learned they had made a mistake. So many people would disqualify them as being who they said they were, thinking such elevated Beings couldn’t make mistakes. But that’s an illusion to believe. However, from the perspective of we humans, even students using human vehicles any so called mistakes TI and/or DO said they made were not at all mistakes as far as we are concerned. That’s part of why some of the things Mark directly implies about DO, as DO having made mistakes or gained some new realization shows to me, though I could be wrong, that Mark has lost a chunk of knowing he once might have had. I’m not saying he couldn’t get it back and I’m not pretending I can judge his relationship with DO but there is a huge amount of evidence that he and Sarah have gone very far astray from what DO hoped they would do after They left their vehicles in 1997.

I was present in the Class when DO contracted Rocky Mountain Spotted Tick Fever and felt like he could “curl up and die” and wanted to but asked TI if he could exit then and he told us as I recall that TI said to him he could leave if he wanted to and DO then felt the students would have a hard time continuing without him physically present and he didn’t want to shorten the task TI had given him to do, so decided he would not exit then.

Niklas:

Come May 1993, to the cost of $29,911, Heaven’s Gate – using the name Total Overcomers Anonymous – took out a three-quarter page advertisement in USA Today titled UFO Cult Resurfaces with Final Offer. Variations of the same ad were placed in dozens of other publications across the United States. Everything was funded by the students, most of whom had qualified jobs by then.

Sawyer: My understanding was that the info-ad was 1/3 of a page, but I don’t doubt Mark and Sarah received some documentation so I may have that wrong.

10. Mark:

– The USA Today piece was the main expense. The regional papers received a modified version which cost far less. Many were package deals where you’d publish in one and, for a bit more, it would appear in affiliated papers. From regional publications like Dimensions and Free Spirit in the northeast to Pathfinder and Phenome News in the Midwest – we published wherever we could. We were also featured in international magazines like Steam Shovel Press and Nexus. All the publication dates and issues are listed in Section 5 of our anthology.

10. Sawyer:

Speaking of wording, when Mark said, (capitalizations are mine); “WE published wherever WE could. WE were also featured in international magazines like Steam Shovel Press and Nexus. All the publication dates and issues are listed in Section 5 of OUR anthology”

Mark and Sarah were not at all in the Group at that time or any time after they were sent out of the Group in 1987. They were given a number of opportunities to serve DO again after 1987 but most were refused. This is well documented in the audio tapes. They had zero to do with the “anthology” which is referring to the Heaven’s Gate Book. Yes, they published it and is seen today as their purple book. They even criticized me for using the same color for the publishing of my book though the reason I did it was two fold with the primary reason being that I thought the color they chose was because it was TI’s favorite color. The other reason was because my book seemed to be a continuation of the fact that DO included primary scriptures from the New Testament in the back of his Book.

I was there when DO wrote what he sent to USA Today. I was also there when Jwnody wrote a modified version and sent copies of it to many periodicals, some of which Mark mentioned here. I don’t know who all participated in the changes to the USA Today piece but can’t imagine they ran anything by Mark and Sarah any more than they ran them by me or most other class members.

They are putting on the appearance that they are one and the same as members of the Group were and that is very, very misleading. It really smacks to me of what happened to Paul of Tarsus according to the records in the Book of Acts. While still referred to as Saul, while he was persecuting true believers of Jesus after Jesus left, he said he was blinded by a flash of light and heard a voice that was said was heard by others:

Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

In other words, Saul went against Jesus’ followers, even potentially responsible for the stoning to death of Stephen and then was influenced by some vision or discarnate or Space Alien Fallen Angel Soul to think of himself as having had a direct contact and instruction from Jesus.

In other words, this is a tactic that the lower forces use to commandeer the Teachings from the incarnate Older Members to create a religion from them. So what happened is that Saul changed his name to Paul and his letters when found became the primary foundation of what became Christianity with Emperor of Rome, Constantine declaring himself a Christian and building churches and making decrees.

When DO and Crew left in 1997 they left a setup for former Students to be tested. DO knew that some students could be trusted to act quickly to retrieve “any Items of Value” from Storage, which Rkkody ended up doing after Mark and Sarah turned over all their letters and keys to vehicles and codes and addresses to at least 2 storage rooms, with one containing all the audio meeting tapes. Had Mark and Sarah acted quickly to even inform Rkkody of the content of the Letters they received to inform Rkkody to get the truck from one storage room and use it to go to the other storage room to load it up with it’s contents, then none of the complication would have occurred that did occur.

Okay, so that was Mark and Sarah’s first mistakes – not acting quickly enough because they were afraid of what might happen since their Postnet business was where the Group used an address and their names were with Rkkody’s on the letter DO wanted to send to the owner of the mansion after their bodies were discovered. This is according to Rkkody’s manuscript which there is no reason to believe is fabricated but no doubt Mark and Sarah may claim that it is.

At that point when San Diego found out about the storage room and put a lock on it, the only choice was to engage a lawyer to help get the contents back into the hands of those students who wanted to disseminate the Group’s information.

But when Mark and Sarah were ruled to have filed a frivolous lawsuit and threatened to hold up the auction, etc. by filing an appeal, the court sought a settlement that cost Mark and Sarah upwards as much as 500,000.00 according to Mark in this article. So the Judge gave them a Consent Decree and ownership of the contents of storage that didn’t include 486 audio tapes Rkkody had removed from Storage before the Storage was taken by San Diego County.

And here’s my point to comparing this with the Influence that changed Saul to Paul:

This is approximately when Mark and Sarah saw that there really weren’t very much the media was doing to cause them any problems so they wanted the task back. Hence the government decree became the first of two such decrees that enabled Mark and Sarah to have a legal criteria to lord over the material, that is until they went against me, Cathy and against Carlan (and Jhnody, though he isn’t named in the lawsuit to stop us from doing anything with any of the information. Mark and Sarah want us to turn over any of the information we have so they can be the only disseminators of the Information and no doubt one of the first things they would do if they haven’t already was find out in the audios all the spots where they (Mrcody and Srfody) are spoken about and just take those files out.

This is exactly what the Catholic church did to the abundance of manuscripts they had. They formed them into the Canon and went about persecuting anyone who taught the contents of what Jesus said outside of the clergy who they deemed were the only ones who had the task to do the teaching.

So these usages of “we” and “our” is direct evidence of how Mark and Sarah think of themselves, as if they are DO’s only current “Reps” on earth. Others could participate in disseminating TI and DO’s information IF, IF, IF they bow down to the wishes of Mark and Sarah King. We know this is true as we have the document they gave us in their attorney’s office in November of 2021 listing all the many rules we needed to agree upon before we did anything and that if we breached the rules even our children would be held libel to their so called authority.

To speak as if they were part of the group and had anything much to do with any of this is outrageous. I was there and even I don’t like speaking about these materials as including me in their creation. Mark is assuming he is in such good graces with DO that he and Sarah must take any measures to insure no one else interferes with what they want to do or not do regarding the Intellectual Property of the Heaven’s Gate Group.

Furthermore regarding to The “Anthology” mentioned here by Mark, is referring to the Book the Group put together entitled, “How and When The Door to the Physical Kingdom Level Above Human May Be Entered – an Anthology of Our Materials” before Mark and Sarah even knew it existed complete with documents, most, even all of which Mark and Sarah weren’t in the Class when they were formulated.

Rkkody was sent in his Fed X package copies of the first edition of the same Book. Jhnody was also sent a copy of the Book which was before Mark and Sarah published it and changed the copyright page to the Telah Foundation from Common Law Copyright – encouraging anyone to copy it entirely or parts of it as long as none of it was changed or added to and were not doing it for commercial purposes. (I don’t believe commercial purposes included believers charging for their expenses of disseminating the information. I have evidence of that).

This further demonstrates why Mark doesn’t want anyone else to disseminate TI and DO’s information to the public. He (and Sarah) think only they have that task and so when I or Cathy or Carlan or Jhnody do it, to them we are rogue bulls “confusing” who they say is really authorized by DO to do the dissemination task. Mark and Sarah in their lawsuit complaint used the word, “confuse” against us, saying we were causing confusion in the use of the phrase Heavens Gate.

The fact is that DO hoped that anyone, any new believer would Stand in He and TI’s defense and that it was a task given to new believers to disseminate Their information not just two x-students who were blaming DO for being sent out of the Class, putting DO down as Mark has demonstrated here in this article repeatedly. For 25 years they have been almost totally hording the audio tapes. They would send someone a link to download one at a time. Cathy ended up getting 4 from them over time. The link becomes inactive so in some cases she had to re-ask for a new link because she didn’t listen to it all when she had it and/or wanted to listen to it or parts of it again. These audio tapes are jam packed with information that is frankly Beyond Human comprehension unless one keeps after it and seeks to absorb it and apply it. Then more and more becomes apparent In that way, it’s much like the records of what Jesus said. There are layers of understanding. So to make it so hard to have tapes is thinking they can only be had if someone proves to them they are worthy, have the thirst and aren’t going to be like Pearls Before Swine. That’s how they think about a lot of people, as “swine” and as “cockroaches”. I and Cathy are witness to them using those terms to define people.

If anyone is giving Heaven’s Gate a bad (“confusing”) reputation and name, it’s Mark and Sarah in the ways they have treated many who have written to them that I and Cathy know about and have first hand provable evidence of.

Niklas:

These ads stirred enough interest for the Group to re-open ‘the harvest’ – as they referred to the recruitment process – and hold public meetings again for the first time since 1976.

11. Mark:

– They tested the waters in Denver and Albuquerque in November 1993, but the harvest didn’t go live until the following January when they were in the LA area. The Group actually grew from twenty-four to fifty during this time, with people coming and going throughout the year. Some entered because they thought they’d be leaving on a spacecraft immediately, but the veterans knew this was not the case.

11. Sawyer:

Jwnody and I (Swyody) held the meeting in Denver in November of 1993 as a testing of the waters like Mark said. Our report to DO was that it went well, there seemed to be interest. I don’t know if anyone went to that meeting who ended up joining once we started heading out to hold meetings on January 1, 1994 or not, though upon returning to that area, I think it was Chkody and I who held another meeting in that area and Golden (Gldody) joined from. As was the case for most all TI and DO believers, what she heard made total sense to her and she knew this was what meant everything to her so needed to give her 100% effort to. This is an example of my response to the meeting I attended with TI and DO talking on September 14, 1975 and this is the type of response Cathy has said she had when she watched the Beyond Human – The Last Call Video series. And there are others still having that response when they hear it.

I’m glad to see Mark speaks about us at that time as “They” instead of acting like he was a part of it, as he did in point #10.

We actually launched the Public meeting schedule from the San Diego area not from L.A.

I don’t think the group ever grew to 50 but even if it did for a time during that 9 1/2 month holding of public meetings a bunch of those were returning dropouts who had been either looking for DO over years even or who still had some contact with DO after they dropped out.

That return of a bunch of dropout students started in 1993 with the publishing and uploading of the Beyond Human Video Series to a Satellite TV channel. A bunch of dropouts individually watched the Beyond Human series on Satellite and for those that had a way to get in touch with DO, did and DO invited them to rejoin. As I recall they were Rkkody, Stlody, Tllody, Jhnody (from seeing the broadcast in Venezuela), Flxody and her husband a new believer who became named Ablody, Gnrody, a new believer (who had been partnered with Rkkody when Rkkody was in the world) and Evnody, a new believer (who was a half sister to Stlody who became interested when Stlody left the Group). Also Slvody and Jstody returned having joined in 1975 or so who were a couple in the world. (Jstody left some time shortly after rejoining but with Rkkody decided to exit his vehicle by his own hand in around February of 1998. Also there was Rddody who was a new believer who was a homeless person who DO allowed to join us, but he didn’t stay very long because he started finding fault with Class members (including me) and didn’t want to take the correction from DO. DO asked him where he wanted to go so DO could give him transportation to wherever he chose. He chose to receive a Greyhound bus pass that was good for unlimited travel for a year and he was taken to the nearest bus station. He was probably given a little spending money as well.

Niklas:

Phoenix was one of the few places they managed to get local news coverage – did you have a hand in this?

Sawyer: We actually got great coverage from the Dallas Morning news, from a Portland radio station and from the newspaper in Missoula, Montana where we also held meetings. “We” in this case refers to the small Group I was an overseer, with my partner, of. In the case of Dallas, several smaller groups joined together to hold that meeting. I don’t know of what media the other 4 or 5 small groups obtained. We also attracted media to the meeting “my” group put on southeast of Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I’m sure other groups had media coverage as well.

12. Mark:

– No, this was not our doing, but we did meet up with them while they visited Arizona in February 1994. We later saw them in Tucson, where they asked us to come back into the Group. Some of those who’d started the rumors that forced us to leave in 1987 had left by then – ironic, isn’t it? So, we asked for time to think. We considered making that transition but ultimately did not.

12. Sawyer:

Mllody and I and the group of students we were Overseers for held the Tucson meeting then and also got news coverage for on UFO AZ, a public access TV station created and run by Ted Lohman who we were also on the show with. I recall after that meeting that another of our Groups held a meeting in a suburb town south of Mesa or Tempe, as I recall and that may be the meeting Mark is talking about as there was some local news coverage of it. I was in the audience at that meeting and saw Mark and Sarah there as well.

But DO told us after that time that he had asked Mark and Sarah if they wanted to return into the group and that they declined.

Again, Mark saying here that, “Some of those who’d started the rumors that forced us to leave in 1987 had left by then – ironic, isn’t it?”

This is so hard for me to see in writing but is very telling of the Mind he lost. This statement to me shows that even today he has little trust that DO is his Older Member, as if DO was influenced to send him and Sarah out of He and TI’s Classroom because of anything (rumors) said to DO about them. DO sent them out of the Classroom reluctantly because they didn’t want to look to him as their Older Member anymore. This is a huge example of Mark not knowing how wrong he is about the whole episode. No wonder he gave at least one email interview where when asked why they left the Group, Mark and Sarah said nothing about being sent out of the classroom.

On top of that, he’s saying it’s ironic that those class-members were at that time in 1994 out of the Class as if to say it was their bad karma because they influenced DO with rumors that caused DO to send them out of the Class. The ones I recall that left the Class after them until 1994 were Hvvody, perhaps Pypody, Cddody (who DO sent to a half way house situation in Dallas where Brnody and Anyody were also living for a period, except Cddody when offered by DO to return in 1994 declined (and has since died), Rthody who also was on the fence about staying in the Class following the second family visit where he spent time with his vehicle’s brothers and their families that he then wanted to leave to be around, Pmmody who left in 1992 or so and Andody who left in 1992 or 1993. Of those, though I might be wrong but only Pmmody was in Sat 3 north craft at that time. That might not be so as I think Rthody and Hvvody might have been in that craft at that time as well but like me there, Rthody and Andody and Hvvody I believe all had OOC Tasks so probably wouldn’t know as much about what was transpiring between Mrcody (Mark) and other students that became what surfaced Mark’s ceasing to follow the I could be Wrong procedure.

I could find ways to ask Pmmody, Rthody, Hvvody and Andody about their recollection of those events surrounding Mark and Sarah’s being sent out of the Classroom but to date I don’t really care to.

Niklas:

Come September 1994, Heaven’s Gate had returned to California and taken up residency in the city of San Clemente, where they slept in tents inside a warehouse. From their many years on campgrounds through all seasons, the senior members had considerable outdoors experience. As such, they could get contractor work testing out camping equipment. One day, Do summoned the Class to a meeting during which he – flanked by a vacant chair to signify Ti’s presence – broached the topic of purposely shedding their human husks. In his view, it was a means of leaving behind the cumbersome corporeal vessel to allow for the consciousness to return to the Next Level. Just like Jesus, the same spiritual being that now occupied Do’s body, had done two thousand years prior by willingly submitting to crucifixion. The Group were down to around forty members at this point; one of them left, but the rest stayed.

A common speculation is whether they would’ve moved towards the physical exit strategy if Ti had remained at the helm.

13. Mark:

– We feel it would’ve come from Ti sooner than Do, but we don’t know for sure. It’s hard to conjecture about this. We were unaware at the time, but the development itself was unsurprising. From the beginning, Ti and Do knew we would not be entering the Next Level in our human bodies. Flesh and blood are not made for space travel. Instead, we’d receive new, space-capable Next Level bodies. You vacate your earthly vessel either before or after entering the craft – take your pick. And don’t tell us that tethered trips to the moon or Mars are ‘space travel’. Exiting the earth’s atmosphere on an explosive chemical tube and hoping you’ll make it back in one piece is controlled playtime in our restricted solar system; high-speed movement around the universe, it is not. The Next Level controls our playground.

13. Sawyer:

At least Mark says it’s “conjecture” after stating his opinion. However the opinion, what they, Mark and Sarah feel really seems to be another of the many tell tale signs that they even at this point think poorly of DO and his choices. For example:

To say, “it would’ve come sooner from Ti than DO” to refer to the exit timing based on the use of the word, “sooner”, given the fact that DO looked to TI as his Older Member, His Heavenly Father aka Jehovah in the records and religious terms, his “Admiral,” doesn’t that say DO was tardy in exiting? Doesn’t it directly state that DO was not in tune with what TI would have done? I highly doubt they are implying that TI would have wrongly exited sooner as if it was good that DO took so long to exit.

This seems like a little thing but in fact it’s huge and shows how right DO was in audio tape #849 from 07-23-94 where DO says Mrcody and Srfody could not stay in Class in relationship to each other so he instructed them to leave in 1987. That’s not the only audio tape clip saying that they became satisfied with looking to one another, thus no longer to DO who they referred to as their Older Member.

They seem to directly imply that they think DO was a weak leader and the facts are exactly the opposite but not in a human way. DO wasn’t dictatorial at all. Just the opposite but when it came to Standards He and TI stood for, though patient and tolerant and forgiving, as they said in scripture “ruled” with a two edged sword of his Mind (words) requiring those who showed he and TI they wanted that rule to sever all their ties to this world to be “accounted worthy”.

Again it shows how little he really thinks of DO and about what DO’s relationship with TI was all about. DO was fully acting on TI’s behalf while also operating as a partnership while TI was in a human vehicle and thriving on staying in tune with TI step by step as he finished the task TI gave him. The only way someone can really begin to see what I’m saying as true is to listen to a bunch of audio tapes. It really doesn’t take a bunch and of course some will listen to even a bunch and still not see what I’m saying.

I challenge Mark to show us some evidence that TI would have left sooner than DO determined was time to exit. Saying things like this is irresponsible and I’ve had to follow his interviews over the years correcting these kinds of things he and/or Sarah would say. I’m not claiming to be perfect in this regard but the big difference is that I want to be corrected rather than leave misinformation in the public record.

Maybe the fact that Mark wasn’t in the Class after November of 1987 left him with little recognition of how DO went about making choices without TI’s physical presence. He was far more careful in a sense as it was a different relationship with TI outside a physical human vehicle. He literally knew when TI was closer and/or when TI’s Mind was closer via whatever technology TI was using. That’s why when DO moved us all to Atlanta and He couldn’t feel TI’s presence as He could in Colorado, He felt “underwater,” I recall Him saying. When we learned of that a number of students said to DO, let’s move back to Colorado and DO said He felt terrible asking us to do that as He had spent so much money renting three 24 foot Ryder trucks and all the effort to load them with three houses of furnishings galore and giving notice at our jobs in the world, many of which were high tech jobs that employers would be upset about our leaving and leasing three big houses in the Peachtree Dunwoody area of north Atlanta, having to pay thousands of first, last and deposit to live in and in some cases like me, I found a job working for Peachtree Software and hardly came up to speed in learning how their software worked so I could trouble shoot bugs and fix them, what I was good at.

Some students said to him that without his feeling a strong connection to TI, it didn’t matter how much money was involved/lost. DO wondered if He had made a mistake. After all TI had felt for years that going east of the Mississippi river felt like they had less of a connection to their Older Member – TI’s Older Member who was working with both of them from His spacecraft. But even feeling that, they at times felt like they had instructions to take the class east of the Mississippi. Like when we moved to a camping area somewhat north of Biloxi, Mississippi and stayed for maybe a month at most as I recall. Even when TI and DO felt they made mistakes, they knew the difference when they were abiding by instructions from their Older Member. No doubt DO had instruction from TI to move to Atlanta. After all I wonder how that tested some students as one could wonder… didn’t DO go there first to check it out, which he did. Some class-members saw this as a weakness and if they did the Next Level would see that and would even put them to a test to see if they would choose to overcome that negativity or leave the Class because of.

Didn’t Mark recognize that question that many in the media have asked me and that puts DO in a light of having failed? Maybe he hasn’t had much experience being interviewed and perhaps he too allowed himself to wonder if DO lost something after TI left that caused him to get off track from what TI had started with him. That statement directly says that DO hadn’t acted as TI would have.

I’ve heard that view from some former students (in person and in media they have done), like Andody (aka Frank), Rthody (aka Michael), Dncody (aka Dick currently deceased having died over 10 years ago as I recall from complications of HIV), and heard it privately but also in person from Cddody (aka Fred or Dale who also died from a health problem some years back), and I think there were others who made the same claims that DO got off track after TI left and led them to exit as they did when they think TI never would have gone in that direction.

This shows how little they knew of TI. They are letting themselves get conned by the Lower Forces to think that way because there is no evidence of that.

I may be wrong but also feel I’ve heard that view from Robert Balch and perhaps from Ben Zeller. If they are saying that they are showing they don’t know what they are talking about. I haven’t heard Mark or Sarah say it but considering how little Mark seems to think of DO in this article, as shown by my comments in this interview, I wouldn’t be surprised if he and/or Sarah hold some of that opinion that DO got off track in exiting when and by that method of their own hands and/or with that timing.

re: Mark’s statement, “From the beginning, Ti and Do knew we would not be entering the Next Level in our human bodies.

This sort of shocked me to hear as even new believer Cathy has listened to the Beyond Human Series frequently and read the Heaven’s Gate Book several times and listened to dozens of audio tapes, knew what TI and DO were teaching included taking one’s living human physical vehicle (body) on board the spacecraft that would pick them up. In fact TI and DO have met with much criticism over saying their students would leave with their human bodies albeit changed over into Next Level bodies, when that didn’t happen, as if that alone was the criteria that demonstrated whether TI and DO really were exactly who they said they were.

Perhaps what Mark means to say here is that it would be a converted (changed over) human vehicle that goes to Heaven if that is the way the Next Level decides. But if that’s what Mark meant, why didn’t he explain himself better. It’s so misleading to people to say inaccurate things like that. Maybe he forgot what all TI and DO said about it? Or maybe Mark just made a typo in this sentence and it wasn’t caught or corrected but in case Mark got confused about that I’ve included just a few of the many statements made by TI and DO and Crew on the subject:

a. From the Prospective Candidate Letter TI and DO wrote for us in 1975 to give to would be students:

“This is not a spiritual trip. To reach the Next Kingdom above human, your body must
literally be converted over biologically and chemically. This metamorphic process happens
automatically as you will yourself to overcome your humanness.”

b. From Statement One written by DO while in prison that He and TI provided at public meetings in 1975 and 1976 which is in the Heaven’s Gate Book:

“Those who can believe this process and do it will be “lifted up” individually and “saved” from death – literally. If you seek those two while they are here they will gladly fill you in on the details and assist those who wish to follow in this “path.”

Speaking of Jesus:

Approximately 2,000 years ago an individual of that next kingdom forfeited his body of that kingdom and entered a human female’s womb, thereby incarnating as the one history refers to as Jesus of Nazareth. He awakened to this fact gradually through the same metamorphic process and came to know that he had incarnated for the express purpose of telling and showing, even to the point of proof, that the next kingdom can be entered by overcoming the human aspects and literally converting into a “man” or creature of that next kingdom – the kingdom of his Father – one who is already a member of that kingdom. By His resurrection He proved that death can be literally overcome and that a permanent body for the next kingdom is acquired from the human kingdom. He did not leave His body in the grave. He converted it into His body of that next kingdom. This is the only way the next kingdom is entered permanently. Each human has that full potential. Jesus’ “Christing” or christening was completed at His transfiguration (metamorphic completion) and He remained in the “larva” environment, with other humans, only for some 40 days to show that His teaching had been accomplished. He showed them His new body and demonstrated a few of its new attributes, IE, appearing and disappearing (changing His vibrations) before their eyes while letting some of His friends touch His “new” body. This could be compared to a butterfly remaining in the caterpillar world for a few days to show them what they had to look forward to if they chose to seek true conscious communication with a butterfly and were willing to overcome all of their caterpillar ways. Then Jesus left them in a cloud of light (what humans refer to as UFO’s) and moves and returns in the same manner.

c. Here are some of the responses from TI (Bonnie) and DO (Herf) as recorded in the book, UFO Missionaries Extraordinary about going to the Next Level without one’s physical human body needing to die:

Question from Dan Garcia from pg. 71:
Then why is it necessary to convert to the next kingdom?

Bonnie: Because you have to make room for others.
Herf: You have to go through the human kingdom to get to the next… It depends on what your mind is on. A human apparently dies… you would never need to die again. You would overcome decay; you would have the capacity with your mind to create anything you desired; you would have the capacity to serve as agent to help humans come up to the level you have graduated to, and you would not be confined to a single planet.

from page 89:
“The only reason Jesus reappeared to his disciples after his death was to tell them he was flesh and bone. He was not spirit. He didn’t have to be crucified and rise from the dead. He just proved that he’d changed over into another creature that could even heal it’s body and take it with him into the next level.

Now the whole world has twisted what he said into believing that if we’re good little boys and girls and go faithfully to the grave we’ll get some little spirit body that can go to the heavens; and it’s an illusion. You do not have to die.”

Question from pg. 106:
It has been suggested that your followers are prepared to fast to the point of starvation. Is it true that your followers must die in order to gain the price of admission to a UFO for translation, transition, to the next level above human?

The Two: They do not have to die any more than Moses died or Elijah died or Enoch died. They will be lifted up wherever they are. Their metamorphic conversion, their change, will be accelerated. Some short time after we go, they will be prepared to leave. When they are prepared to leave, they will be lifted up.

d. From “Our Position Against Suicide” posted on the Heavensgate.com website that Mark and Sarah have been the webmasters of for some 24 years. Note it says they plan on boarding the spacecraft “in our physical bodies”. How does that square with what Mark said here. (In this document they go on to share what the other possibilities are for exiting leaving their physical bodies behind because of various reasons:

“We fully desire, expect, and look forward to boarding a spacecraft from the Next Level very soon (in our physical bodies). There is no doubt in our mind that our being “picked up” is inevitable in the very near future. But what happens between now and then is the big question. We are keenly aware of several possibilities.”

If he really did mean to say this and believes it, in my opinion that of course could be wrong from how TI and DO would see it, it’s yet another signal that he has some resentment towards DO because of the choices DO made in sending him out of the Class. More and more I feel as though I am seeing that resentment, that he’d probably deny, but that also shows up in the fact that he has been choosing to not follow DO’s instructions to him, via the Letters he got via Fed X on March 25th 1997 that described Their exit and how to handle what they left behind for them and other former members and any new believers to do to share their information with the world.

Mark and Sarah were instructed by DO regards to “any items of value that are retrievable by you be divided among those who feel inclined to disseminate our information”

The storage room being spoken of contained the 1061 audio tapes recorded from 1982 to 1997. Along with handling their mail and helping to publish the book and maintain the web site and take care of some legalities this was their task and one that they have failed at as they won’t allow myself and Crlody (and now Cathy) and others to do that dissemination task. It’s like an Influence has had Mark and Sarah believe keeping the material away from the public was somehow the right thing to do, the opposite of what DO wanted for this time frame.

re: Mark writing: “Flesh and blood are not made for space travel. Instead, we’d receive new, space-capable Next Level bodies. You vacate your earthly vessel either before or after entering the craft – take your pick.”

“take your pick”. I never heard TI or DO say anything about a student getting to make that choice and I doubt they ever did say that. I don’t think Mark is aware of how much misinformation he may be sowing. Some people think what he and Sarah say is representative of what TI and/or DO have said/taught, because they were among the former dropout students to have the task of posting the website. I’ve considered posting the website myself and Rkkody gave it to me, but I didn’t think Mark and Sarah were misusing their position the way that I keep hearing from others, and from this article and others they are. The list of their abuses of the information is very long at this point.

This is putting out misinformation. It seems like that game of telephone to where something heard gets changed and changed by the recipient IF they don’t continuously research what exactly TI and DO said about said subject and try to restrain themselves from interjecting their mind and ideas into the teachings. I have seen myself doing this at times as well but I also do try very hard to research things I say so I’m not just relying on my memory which I know is fallible

For instance as I just showed from Statement One, DO writes that Jesus came back after healing his human vehicle to show that he was still “flesh and bone” and then he took that same body with him to board the spacecraft hidden by a cloud. Is Mark saying that a Next Level spacecraft can not manufacture an environment that wouldn’t damage a human vehicle to be in while it’s on a spacecraft from the Next Level? I do recall that certain Next Level Member’s physical bodies could not exist very long in a human dense decaying environment. We need to be very careful when we hear ourselves saying something about what the Next Level can or can’t do. He may be right to some degree but I’d be careful not to guess at something like that.

I do recall TI and DO talking about exiting our human vehicle before entering the craft OR after entering the craft but what was again not mentioned here is what if one enters the craft with their converted over Human vehicle. In that case they may not leave that human vehicle at all, neither before or after boarding the craft. I could be wrong but do recall TI and DO saying at one point that they didn’t know what use a human vehicle would be to the Next Level. Then at another time they thought it was possible the Next Level might like to analyze the human vehicle that provided for a Soul accomplishing enough of a metamorphosis to have changed over the vehicle into a Next Level vehicle.

Niklas:

Many researchers – with a notable example being Ben Zeller, Assistant Professor of Religion at Lake Forest College and author of Heaven’s Gate: America’s UFO Religion – have suggested that the lukewarm response to the Group’s proselytizing efforts accelerated these leanings.

14. Mark:

– That might have played a part in the timing, but it was going to happen regardless. Again, you must enter the Next Level in a Next Level body. The only question was: would it be done before entering the craft or in the privacy thereof? This time, the instructions were to discard the physical body before boarding – making of it a demonstration to the world. Had this occurred afterwards, it would’ve gone by unnoticed. Would you be writing about them today if option two had been exercised?

14. Sawyer:

For Mark to say, “Again, you must enter the Next Level in a Next Level body. The only question was: would it be done before entering the craft or in the privacy thereof?”

Did the 39 have a Next Level body when they boarded the Spacecraft? The only way I know how to think about that relative to things TI and DO said about it, was that it was the Soul body that was growing in each human vehicle. But DO said in DO’s Final Exit, I think it was, that some of those 38 students might have to return to the human kingdom to finish their Overcoming Process. So we don’t know if those individuals would receive a Next Level grown body or not after they laid down their human vehicles. We do know from Jwnody’s document, Away Team From Deep Space Surfaces Before Departure, found in the Heaven’s Gate Book and on the website (See segment below) that there could be different strata of Next Level bodies.

Plus we also know from that same document plus from other documents/video’s left behind that there were some Souls who weren’t ready to exit with DO and Crew when they did, but who also did recognize DO as their Older Member but had weaknesses and that they also would be “saved” by the Next Level whenever it was that they exited in whatever way they exited if they qualified to be saved that was described in the same document as involving believing TI and DO are from the kingdom that created the earth and all it’s inhabitants and that they need to be willing to “Stand in Defense” of TI and DO and maintain that Stand and accept the consequences of maintaining that stand until their departure.

Here is the clearest depiction I’ve found so far of what DO and Crew understood about who, with what kind of human vehicle, changed over to some degree of growth, would be acceptable to enter a Next Level spacecraft:

Segment from Away Team From Deep Space Surfaces Before Departure By Jwnody:

“The appropriate final step for those about to complete their metamorphosis is the shedding of the “shell” – the shedding of that portion of the old creature which is now close to its end. Whatever amount of new creature that is present, if it is acceptable and still working in a forward motion, will be taken into the Next Level. Theoretically, some of us will still be too “young” (undeveloped) and will require further training before we can qualify to receive an issue of a Next Level “uniform” – biological container (body). It’s possible, however, that there are several strata of Next Level uniforms that will be issued depending on the degree of development of the mind at the completion of this task. Young minds may be issued less advanced vehicles. The all-important issue is, at what point – at what age or maturity of mind – does a soul qualify for a Next Level vehicle that would be serviceable in that new Kingdom.”

The Next Level is in charge of who is ready to enter a Next Level spacecraft with or without their human vehicle and when that might happen. The best we could do is to put all the preparation given to us by TI and DO into motion. To do that preparation requires having a human vehicle so I think taking advantage of having a vehicle to learn needed lessons through is to our advantage. To think anyone has done enough of that preparation is ludicrous as even though we may have learned some of the lessons, dealing with our vehicles desires and the way the lower forces work against us provides increased opportunities to build further strength of Mind.

re: the responses to the meetings in 1994 and whether that had something to do with the timing of their exit:

The responses to the meetings held around the US were quite good in the western U.S. where most of the Souls that were waiting for DO to come public again, having formed relationships with human vehicles. The group nearly doubled their numbers though some dropped away very soon after joining, which was anticipated would happen when some found out it was a serious program and that DO and Crew at the time were fully prepared to exit their vehicles, even by their own hand.

What many don’t understand is that TI and DO were not human beings. They were Next Level Souls using human vehicles. Originally, They didn’t think they were to gather followers but when they happened accepted that was their task. In 1994 DO was taking things one step at a time having learned that having a Class with some at a distance wouldn’t work, because we had started a mail correspondence with a number of people who responded to the Beyond Human Series and the USA Today Ad and the same article posted in many New Age periodicals.

I recall he talked about feeling there could be new students and also considered that there could be many but He and TI were never eager to deal with large numbers. However from being present then, I do believe I recall that DO did wonder if being bolder about who it is we all were in history could trigger hatred against us and could accelerate our exit because of. Meetings held in the eastern half of the US mostly had very low turnouts so the handwriting was on the wall to cease holding meetings come September.

However when one listens to audio tapes from 1996 and 1997 DO was still talking about having projects that shared the information with the public even as a theatrical musical big production that included singing, music and a light show and that he was considering wearing a costume of an EBE headgear and even having his ears that were quite large surgically reduced to fit under the headgear and traveling town to town as a troop and/or having a castration contest in Las Vegas and/or forming a monastery people could come visit and stay for 2-3 days and using Ells Angels as Security for public events, and/or forming a monastery in India because India seemed more accepting of various religious groups as opposed to the U.S. where Christians could be even violently against them. At one point he was ready to exit his vehicle and expressed to his students that they should not feel obligated to exit with him in the way he was choosing, that they wouldn’t be failing to not exit with him in that way. These ideas were contemplated over weeks time, to be found talked about in a number of audio tapes from 1996-1997.

DO couldn’t imagine staying until his and each of the student’s vehicles individually dropped dead from old age, and/or diseases. He wanted to see He and TI and Crews legacy continued after they left because he knew their information was germinating throughout the human kingdom as they had been depositing thoughts for some 24 years.

re: whether the so called low turnout at the 1994 meetings had something to do with the exit date:

I tend to agree with Mark that sure it was a factor that showed DO a few things. Those who were waiting for their Older Member to show up public again did respond because the Next Level helped them be in the right place at the right time. Plus DO had gone public being about as bold as he could be revealing that He was the return of the same Soul who was in Jesus, as promised, which many Christians say they were waiting for. Plus it showed DO that the Luciferian Space Alien Fallen Angel Souls, the Lower Forces strategy was such that regardless of how bold DO was, they would mostly have humans ignore them, thus wouldn’t be taking any actions against them that could even accelerate their exit of their vehicles nor try to put DO in jail on some trumped up charges. DO talked about this in some audio tapes from 1996-7. So the low turnout was part of many signs that they had nothing left to do but prepare to exit, though over those last 2 1/2 years DO still considered often whether there was still more to do to bring their information to the public eye again. It was just about how and when and where.

DO’s choice to leave when he did was because of constant wanting to do whatever he felt TI was giving to him in response to his asking TI. That was the process from 1973 one step at a time.

re: Mark writing, “Had this occurred afterwards, it would’ve gone by unnoticed. Would you be writing about them today if option two had been exercised?”

It’s always smarter when we hear ourselves saying something as a statement of fact like; “it would’ve gone by unnoticed” and asking the question, “Would you be writing about them today if option two had been exercised?” to restrain such statements because the facts are we can’t ever truly second guess the Next Level Above Human Older Members. Who knows what other strategies the Next Level could have employed to make a big event that would have people taking notice and writing about them for decades later. TI and DO even talked about another scenario in audio tape 149 that involved lots of media literally filming TI, DO and Crew walking up a ramp onto a Next Level spacecraft.

Niklas:

Shortly after the evacuation conference – but for unrelated reasons – another long-time member who’d joined at the Waldport meeting left the Group. He was sent to live with Mrcody and Srfody in Phoenix, presumably to help him re-adapt to life in modern society.

15. Mark:

– We did serve to transition Swyody to the world, yes. The Group called us every day during late September and October to see how we were doing. They were worried he was going to go off the deep end. He did. Swyody boomeranged into drugs, music, sex, and a general tendency to do nothing.

His motivation was nearly at zero as he bounced like a pinball from one human experience to the other. We finally told them that we had to push Swyody out to an apartment we’d found for him, to allow us to continue with our lives.

He became a bum and ended up with some musicians in Mesa, which somewhat surprised the Group. It was no coincidence that, thirty months later, he did not receive any of the Class’ final instructions about what to do following their departure. They had his phone number and address but sent him nothing. He also birthed a child – which we did not, so we’d be ready for Next Level instructions. And the Class knew it.

He has since taken on roles of dissemination the Group did not give him. These tasks are self-generated and not from the Next Level. In fact, his information and views are quite the opposite.

He appears in every interview because we turn them down. We take care of all the legal issues, and the production companies run to him in need of talking heads. Such has been the cycle for many years now.

15. Sawyer (Swyody):

So often Mark says things in a way, that to me sounds like an exaggeration that puts a greater light on himself. I mean, I’m glad he and Sarah were willing to help me then, as DO arranged with them on my behalf, but what actually happened was hardly a “transition to the world”. For some reason I didn’t need a transition to the world. Here’s what happened from my view:

Mark picked me up at Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix and took me to He and Sarah’s house and gave me a guest room to sleep in. The only thing I remember Sarah saying to me when I arrived was, “none of that sex stuff”, just like that. I was not aware of anything I thought, said or did that ever stimulated her saying this.

Even though I didn’t remember this from being in the Class when DO said it and recorded it on an audio we still have, I learned that in fact, DO said, (paraphrased) that 1/2 the male students while she was still in the classroom were having to fight off thoughts of sensuality with her. DO said this in audio tape 426 made on November 14, 1989. He said about Srfody’s Influence that “It was an influence that had half the males in the Class fighting it off”.

Never mind that she was involved with Alxody while in the Classroom before TI left, if I recall to where they went into a closet and were feeling each other up. I believe Alxody exposed what happened which is how I learned of it. I had had a number of experiences in the Classroom with what seemed like she was coming on to me that I gave no response to. Srrody told me that she had come on to him in some way. I don’t believe for a minute she wanted to have sex with me. I think she was using sexuality to lure whoever might give into it so she could get out of the class. But DO said Srfody’s “Influence” had attempted to lure me in particular away from joining the Class and was now working on Mark.

So they lent me a car to drive to look for a job which I found in a very short time working as a dinner cook for Marriott Resort in Scottsdale, AZ. DO had given me $600.00 in cash. I bought my own food and was rarely at their house. I didn’t cook there and don’t recall putting anything in the refrigerator I ate in my room if not when I was out and about. I bought a bicycle and began to ride from my job some 5 miles to work and back to their house at first. I then found an apartment in Mesa and rode my bicycle to work and back (10 miles) everyday. After another week or so, Mark and Sarah got in touch and suggested my checking out a furnished apartment closer to where I worked, with someone If I recall they knew that wanted to rent out a room in their apartment. So I guess they did vouch for me, which was nice, as I didn’t have any references besides them and don’t recall needing any or anything like that. I took the room and remained there for some months until I moved to NY.

Since Mark has said all these things about me, I’ll have to address every one.

a. “The Group called us every day during late September and October to see how we were doing.”

I never knew of these phone calls but given the way Mark has evidenced vast exaggerations, I doubt they called him “every day” for some 40 days?

b. “They were worried he was going to go off the deep end.”

Why is Mark being so vague? What does “deep end” look like? What did they say that gave DO that impression. I want details.

c. Mark says, “He did” (go off the deep end). He goes on to say about me, “Swyody boomeranged into drugs, music, sex, and a general tendency to do nothing.”

I did no drugs whatsoever. Even if I did want to smoke pot, I didn’t know anyone who had it and I just didn’t have that desire then. When I moved to NY it was my brother who re-introduced me to smoking pot and that’s as far as I ever got into “drug” usage after having joined the Class in 1975. As a kid in my late teens I was an avid pot smoker and did a bunch of acid trips.

Mark shows so much evidence of jumping to all sorts of conclusions and making all sorts of assumptions and exaggerations and outright lying.

At that time I did buy a harmonica while I was driving back and forth to my job using Mark and Sarah’s car before I bought a bicycle. But I never played it for them or for anyone or with anyone. When I was in that apartment I bought a set of Conga drums and began to play them. I was subletting from this youngish woman but I had nothing to do with her and didn’t know if she was a musician. I feel I played those drums a little in that apartment and she never said anything about it. I can’t actually remember how I would have got the drums into that apartment. I didn’t have a car and they were not light weight. And then I moved out to the other apartment and could only play them when the owner wasn’t there. I rented a flute. I didn’t listen to music at all.

I certainly didn’t have sex with anyone and didn’t even want to have sex with anyone. In fact it was several years later that I had sex so again where in the world is he getting this stuff. He’s lying.

I think what’s happening here is he is seeking to get back at me for calling him out on his many lies and misinformation generation that he has committed for over 20 years that I know about and can prove with many articles that I critiqued on my blog sawyerhg.wordpress.com. His memory is growing bad it seems and he appears to be losing recognition of what TI and DO taught which is apparent in this interview. He seems to be blaming DO and Class members for his situation while feeling like he has been vindicated because He and Sarah were given a few simple tasks. I’m not saying they weren’t difficult tasks as even keeping the website up and running and fielding lots of negativity for years is no easy task but I know that tasks as I have been dealing with the same for many years and it’s doable and especially if we trust TI and DO will help us as we go and ask of them.

d. His motivation was nearly at zero as he bounced like a pinball from one human experience to the other.

I wasn’t even talking to them about anything. I didn’t eat with them. I didn’t ask them questions. I knew nothing about what they say here they were telling DO. Look at the way Mark is expressing himself as if he knows anything about anything that I was doing. He just wants to put me down with his silly analogies.

Motivation? I was motivated to continue my life outside the classroom. Did I have a plan, No, I did not. I found the job, I bought a bicycle to ride to work. I bought instruments to restart my musical talents.

e. “We finally told them that we had to push Swyody out to an apartment we’d found for him, to allow us to continue with our lives.”

I found the Mesa apartment by myself. I couldn’t stand being with them in their house. They lied to DO if they told DO that they had to push me out to an apartment. I wanted to leave so I did. It’s true they helped me find a better living space closer to where I worked, which I was thankful for.

How is it that I interfered with their lives? Perhaps using their car, but that’s why I bought a bicycle. Perhaps they did say that they needed the car. I could understand that but I wasn’t just sitting around in their house. I was looking for work and I found work and then also secured additional work from my old employer when I lived in Scottsdale, AZ working for Murray Whipps, who had the software company Phoenix Phive Software who I programmed for. He hired me to work from home, which went into affect when I moved to NY.

f. “He became a bum and ended up with some musicians in Mesa, which somewhat surprised the Group.”

I never met anyone. I had no friends in Mesa or AZ for the months I was there. How was I a bum when I was working a full time job. It’s on my social security information when I worked for the Marriott resort hotel. They never gave me any money that I recall. On may days off I would ride my bicycle many miles to a grocery store, buy food and put the bags in a basket on the rear of the bike and hold some bags on the handlebars of the bike. They are losing their lawsuit against me and since I talk about them in a derogatory way because of their lies and deceit over 25 years on my live-stream I suspect Mark couldn’t not have an interview where he could vent against me. Since he has nothing truthful and substantial to say, he is exaggerating and outright lying.

I believe Mark and Sarah also resent me and Cathy and Carlan for not bowing to them and challenging the deceitful things they say over and over to people.

g. “It was no coincidence that, thirty months later, he did not receive any of the Class’ final instructions about what to do following their departure. They had his phone number and address but sent him nothing.”

I didn’t know they had my address and phone number and wouldn’t have minded if they had. I occasionally spoke with Rkkody on the phone then and Rkkody may have sent me some things then. I know Rkkody was in touch with DO even in 1994-1997 though was out of the Classroom again. Rkkody at one point asked me on DO’s behalf, “what up with you” to which I said, “nothing has changed for me”. I would say that’s why they didn’t send me a packet. I didn’t express to them that I wanted service. I’m embarrassed by that but that’s what was happening.

Mark seems to use it as a way of putting me down, when he and Sarah did receive an instruction packet but then ignored most of DO’s wishes in it and now are preventing people from hearing the audio tapes that is also against TI and DO’s wishes that are well documented in the audio tapes and their many public actions they took after TI left that were timely with that stage in the Classroom and for those who were yet to awaken to embrace TI and DO’s Mind.

h. “He also birthed a child – which we did not, so we’d be ready for Next Level instructions.”

This is quite the telling statement. He is comparing what I did with what they didn’t do. I am not in competition with them but they appear to be in competition with me – otherwise why even bring up this comparison? Sure having a child does have some restrictions on where to go and when. But having a business does the same thing if one can’t leave that business without the business suffering.

I still found ways to serve TI and DO and did all the time. They don’t know about all that because I don’t answer to them and never trusted them.

And talking about being of service. If one listens to audio tape #333 you will hear how DO wanted some Students to minister to Mrcody and Srfody to help them get out of turning against their Older Members (who DO was one of). Also you will hear how DO offered them tasks and they refused them and they didn’t even have children to blame such refusal on. They didn’t want their lives interfered with, DO indicated.

i. “He has since taken on roles of dissemination the Group did not give him.”

j. “These tasks are self-generated and not from the Next Level.”

I guess Mark and Sarah missed how part of DO’s total effort in the years after DO left was spend on dissemination of the truth they bore, their information, the Mind He and TI drew into their vehicles to give to their student body and to the world.

Did Mark ever read the Heaven’s Gate Book, I wonder. After all, it says in many ways that “getting their information out” was literally a task for all Souls who have returned. (see the text below). I am one of those Souls. Cathy is one of those Souls. Every new believer is one of those Souls. Mark and Sarah want to pretend only they are commissioned to disseminate TI and DO’s information and on top of that they aren’t even doing that task except by hiding themselves behind the website as if that’s enough to do. There is no enough to do. They literally said to Cathy and I in person, asking us, “isn’t what we are doing enough?” They seem to see TI and DO’s teachings the way a religionist new ager might see them as a body of information that is for study purposes only. No application is needed yet without application of what They described in part or in full according to each person’s desire, no service is being provided to them and without service only an illusion of working on their behalf, though of course I am not anyone’s judge or my own but what I can judge to some degree is what came from TI and DO’s Mind though their writings and audio and video tapes. The Lower Forces hate to hear or see TI and DO’s teachings provided anyone as they want to steal Souls to their ranks.

Segment from Away Team from Deep Space Surfaces Before Departure, written by Jwnody – trusted elder student of TI and DO, in the Heaven’s Gate Book and shown on Heavengate.com:

“There is a tiny remnant left of a window for catching the eye of the “caretakers of this world.” In order to get saved for further planting, the overriding requirement is to recognize that this is true (these are the facts). You must believe that we represent the Kingdom that created this planet and all of its inhabitants. And you must be willing to take a stand in defense of that belief, and sustain that stand until the end – your departure – regardless of the consequences.”

“You must be willing to take a Stand in defense of that belief.”

What does taking a Stand look like, one may ask. Can anyone defend someone if they don’t know what they stood for and what they said and did? I think not. So this compels new believers and old believers to learn all they can about what TI and DO and Crew taught and to then be equip to share that with others when/if the time arises that they want to Stand in Defense as this states.

And one must “sustain that stand until the end – your departure – regardless of the consequences

Also from same document:

“The only question that remains unanswered is how long the Next Level will permit the alien forces to present their agenda – how long is long enough for all souls to pledge their allegiance for or against – to one side or the other. Every soul must be put to the final test. And as we warned you at the outset, consider your options thoroughly. Hasty judgments are ill-advised.”

If all souls must be put to the final test what does that final test look like? Souls using human vehicles must choose who to pledge their allegiance to, for or against TI and DO. What does allegiance look like – again would that be Standing in Defense of TI and DO?

In another spot in the same document.

“Every soul, that was a part of a deposit, at any time during this civilization, is back to make their choices once again. Some of these may be younger, perhaps second- or first-trimester, souls. Although they may not even have a chance to get to know us before our departure, we do recognize them, because they “recognize the enemy.” They see through the lies and no longer want to be a part of this world. And so it is our task to give them a chance to leave this place by getting this information out. Often the symptoms of a deposit from our Domain can be seen in an individual’s lack of motivation or rebellion against the world, or “system,” and what it has to offer. In their futility, many of these individuals turn to the corrupt devices that are most anesthetizing. You will not find them with the so-called mainstream righteous, but more likely with your social dropouts or even as addicts or criminals – as your so- called “sinners.” Another manifestation of worldly dissatisfaction can be seen in the current movement of radical separatists – patriot/militia types – who clearly recognize the corrupt condition of today’s governments (particularly the dominant governments of the Western world). It is for those that we have come again – to give them a way out of this corrupt human kingdom, which was never designed to work or be satisfactory unto itself.”

This sentence to me clearly aligns with the last two listed here:

“And so it is our task to give them a chance to leave this place by getting this information out.”

“Our” is referring to DO and Crew of which Jwnody was/is a part.
“them” are the Souls who have returned, some being first or second trimester souls which means some may be third trimester souls like Jwnody was.

“them” are being given the chance by DO and Crew (our) “to leave this place by getting this information out”. Does this mean that the process of getting this information out could be what causes some to leave this place, aka exiting their vehicle because of?

Doesn’t that match, being “willing to Stand in Defense of that belief (of TI and DO and Crew being from the Kingdom that created the earth and all it’s inhabitants)?

And one must “sustain that stand until the end – your departure – regardless of the consequences

---

So, in summary, this time is a test time for all souls. In a test there are requirements to get a passing grade (to be saved from recycling):

• Get the information out
• Believe TI and DO are Reps from Creators Kingdom
• Be willing to Stand in Defense of that belief
• Maintain that stand until the end – your departure regardless of the consequences

Who is this written for:

Every Soul who is back whether first, second or third trimester Souls

So if Every Soul is to get the information out and this instruction was given by DO via Jwnody on his behalf, anyone who performs getting the information out would be working for DO and it would not be “self-generated” as Mark claimed I was doing. Such tasks were generated by DO and Crew here.

Am I a first, second or third trimester Soul?

DO said I was and it can be seen in the Beyond Human series session One.

So Mark is dead wrong to say, “He has since taken on roles of dissemination the Group did not give him. These tasks are self-generated and not from the Next Level”

k. “In fact, his information and views are quite the opposite.”

Isn’t it telling that one can see here that exactly what Mark is claiming about me are the very things he is doing. He’s the one who keeps on expressing views that are the opposite of what TI and DO taught. Remember in the section #13 Mark said, “From the beginning, Ti and Do knew we would not be entering the Next Level in our human bodies” and I then showed how TI and DO actually said the opposite by showing proof in Statement One, UFO Missionaries Extraordinary (and I could show that proof in a number of places).

l. “He appears in every interview because we turn them down.”

If so, then why did they turn them down? Could it be they were doing documentaries that they wanted someone who was real, someone with a face and a voice rather than just some email chats that say next to nothing most of the time because they don’t want to take the time to really explain how TI and DO taught because they remembered so little because they went against DO after they left and didn’t keep up with listening to tapes and reading their actual words but instead cultivated their own New Age interpretation so that those who knew them personally would look up to them in some way as Spiritual leaders.

I suspect they turned down broadcasters because they didn’t want people to know what they looked like and sound like. I suspect it was because they had too much to lose in the businesses they had if they were seen on television speaking favorably about what most of the media portray as a Suicide Cult. It is scary but that’s the price one pays to Stand in Defense of TI and DO being from the Creators Kingdom who created the earth and all it’s inhabitants.

m. We take care of all the legal issues, and the production companies run to him in need of talking heads. Such has been the cycle for many years now.

Yes, they took care of some legal issues but they have created for themselves having many legal issues. For instance, though DO didn’t give them any instructions to copyright anything but a common law copyright on the Heaven’s Gate Book, they filed copyrights that are in question as to their legitimacy because according to Judge Lisa Guy Schall they showed her no documents that brings evidence the group was transferring anything to them. What the judge states in her decision in 1999 was that they were only to be distributors of the Intellectual property. We even have Sarah stating this on record. That’s a far cry from being the only distributors and copyrighting some of the audio tapes that weren’t even in storage when San Diego ruled them to go to the deceased estates. Upon Mark and Sarah’s appeal the judge didn’t want to hold up the ruling to sell in auction the personal possessions of the group, she then settled and sold Mark and Sarah the Intellectual property in storage that included the audio tapes and charged them $2000.00 and required them to give them several of the groups cars that DO had instructed be given to some of the 8 former dropouts who wanted to serve then and to one new believer.

Niklas:

In 1995, the Group purchased forty acres of land in Manzano, New Mexico. It had previously served as a summer camp, as evidenced by the mess hall still standing on the property. Inspired by the housing model laid out in Earthship: How to Build Your Own – a book by American architect and ecologist Michael Reynolds – they constructed a veritable fortress from recycled tyres and cement. The structure even boasted a guard tower and a stash of firearms.

16. Mark:

– We were not aware of the Earthship or the related activities. It seems they put in a lot of work there. But we did help them with many requests while they were in New Mexico, such as funneling cash donations.

16. Sawyer:

Let’s see some examples of where the donations came from and how much.

Niklas:

Were any of the donors unaffiliated with the Group?

17. Mark:

– No, we are not aware of any donations from outsiders. During the 1990s, a few former members would supply cash to aid them in their mission. But beyond Ollody and Lggody in the late 70s, there were never any substantial donors.

17. Sawyer:

So there were no donors from outsiders and there were no “substantial donors” from within the group besides Ollody and Lggody. Who is left to donate? Maybe I’m missing something but he might be losing his mind here.

Niklas:

Once the weather turned cold, maintaining the Earthship to a satisfactory degree became too much work. So, after ten months in Manzano, the Group relocated to Phoenix. Soon after arriving, they set up a foundation called TELAH Services – TELAH being an acronym for The Evolutionary Level Above Human – meant to handle mail requests for books and tapes.

18. Mark:

– We kept in touch through 1995 until they, ‘by chance’, entered our new postal store in Phoenix to establish a mail-order relationship. Using our company office as their address – the one still on the website to this day – Lggody and Mllody set up TELAH Services as a legal entity with a bank account. It was all tied into their online activities and other tasks. They turned the corporation over to us in May 1996; after that, we were asked to assist them with many things. We helped where we could, but safety for both parties was always in play.

18. Sawyer:

Mark said, “They turned the corporation over to us in May 1996.”

If that is true then why didn’t DO and Crew give Mark and Sarah the correct paperwork to support their doing something with Their corporation? And if Mark and Sarah couldn’t do what they hoped to do by having the corporation transferred to them why didn’t that get resolved before the Group left their human vehicles by March of 1997.

Niklas says in this article something about the complication they encountered in point 35:

“To complicate matters further, TELAH Services – the business set up by the Group and transferred to Srfody and Mrcody – was still registered to Logan Lahson, known in the Class as Lggody. The state of Arizona would not allow for this to be changed; instead, the entity itself had to be renamed.”

Is it right to assume Niklas got that information from Mark and Sarah? I think so as until recently only Mark and Sarah would know this since it was written about in Judge Lisa Guy Schall’s decision that Logan Lahson owned Telah Services.

In case Mark denies what Niklas reported here as Telah Services having been registered to Logan Lahson, aka Lggody in the Classroom and legally John Michael Craig, here is the verbiage to the legal document from the:

SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN DIEGO STATEMENT OF DECISION of what to do with the possessions of the Heaven’s Gate group in the name of JOHN MICHAEL CRAIG, also known as LOGAN M. LAWSON, aka LOGAN LAHSON, Deceased in Case No. PNO22228 that was presided over on January 11, 1999 in Department A of the above-entitled court, the Honorable Lisa Guy-Schall, Judge, presiding shows the matter was tried without a jury and concluded on January 13, 1999.

This court case documents the possessions of the Group in the Mansion and in the Storage units. The Public Administrator marshaled a Certificate of Trade Name Registration for Higher
Source Contract Enterprises (Trial Exhibit Number 211), and an application for Registration
for Trade Name for Telah Services (Trial Exhibit Number 212), which are in the name of
decedent Logan Lahson, aka John Craig.

So some of my questions about this involve why Mark and Sarah King flew to Washington D.C. to meet with Bureaucrats to rename Telah Services as Telah Foundation. Wouldn’t the Group have saw to that happening IF DO and Crew wanted Mark and Sarah to make that change? Yet if Mark and Sarah hadn’t done that, I doubt they would have been able to make a case for registering copyrights and trademarks the Group gave no indication they wanted done.

The only form of that DO and Crew expressed in the Letter to Mark and Sarah was stating that the wanted Oscody to register Their Book with the Library of Congress.

But apparently Mark and Sarah were not happy with that instruction alone and chose to copyright 486 of the 1061 audio tapes found in Storage, The Beyond Human series (the Group had documented that they copyrighted as shown on the original tape jackets, to Total Overcomers Anonymous, aka TOA, the lithographic image referred to as the CBE art work – Celestial Being Entity, and trademarks for the Away Team Patch, the use of the phrase, Heaven’s Gate and the use of what is known as the Heaven’s Gate logo that pictures a giant keyhole with the words Heaven’s on top and Gate inside the keyhole.

They have no proof that they received instructions from DO and Crew to copyright and trademark anything yet they have lied to my face and Cathy’s face and to Carlan saying they had all of the Groups Intellectual Property copyrighted.

I haven’t figured out whether they have done something shady with these copyrights yet but it appears they did, perhaps unknowingly but they are using those copyrights to try to stop me, Cathy and Carlan and even Jhnody from disseminating TI and DO’s audios and other information they left behind for all to have.

There is a great deal to show in all this but I’ll reserve it for another time but I just wanted to show a little of the causes for great questions of what Mark and Sarah have done and continue to do and think that it’s right by TI and DO to sue former Classmates and new believers for sharing TI and DO’s information. It’s bizarre but they don’t see it. They don’t think they could be wrong in the way they say they think about doing the dissemination task for DO.

Niklas:

Also in May 1996, for the first time in 4,200 years, the comet that would eventually become known as Hale-Bopp grew visible to the naked eye. It had been completely unknown to the scientific community until ten months earlier when two amateur astronomers, Alan Hale and Thomas Bopp, discovered a gigantic heavenly body with a dust envelope the size of our sun approaching the orbit of Jupiter. In contemporary popular culture, Hale-Bopp seems to be the primary association most people have with Heaven’s Gate. However, it is a common misconception that they believed a spacecraft to be trailing the comet; rather, it was interpreted as the celestial omen they’d been waiting for. Hale-Bopp caught the entire world’s imagination and inflamed interest among everyone from religious personalities to conspiracy theorists. One outlet that picked up a lot of the extravagant ideas in circulation, such as the one about a UFO hiding behind the comet, was Art Bell’s classic radio show Coast to Coast, which the Group is said to have listened to regularly.

19. Mark:

– We don’t like UFO shows – they are boring. Srfody and I paid no attention to it and heard about this only after they departed. And no, there was no craft following the comet. Hale-Bopp was never important to us; it was just a marker. As was Easter.

19. Sawyer:

Boring, Mark says. I guess he doesn’t care about what DO cared about and said about UFO’s, Space Aliens being the same Souls known in the records as Lucifer and his associates who went against their Next Level Older Members and now try to turn humans eyes away from the reality that TI and DO were actually The Father and “Jesus” who promised to return to complete the task.

Why not take this interview as an opportunity to talk about how TI and DO talked about Comet Khoutek in 1973 as a marker of He and TI’s 9+ months of awakening and how the lower forces sought to stop them from performing their task.

I could understand being asleep when it actually happened, because I was not that interested in it then but if they sought to be in service to TI and DO by participating in the Dissemination Project DO and Crew spoke about they and at least the other 6 former students, they hoped would perform on their behalf after their exit, then they would have to learn everything they missed in the time they were choosing to remain outside the Class. If they did begin to study the materials they left behind in the Heaven’s Gate Book, they would have to see that in the time after they were sent out of the Classroom, DO started a very in depth investigation into the UFO phenomena that included Space Races (aliens). They would have read the USA Today Info/Ad that spoke about how they seemed to believe that Their Students had come to earth in spacecrafts and intentionally crashed some of them, laying down the existing dense physical bodies they had before then so they could take over human vehicles that they with the Next Level’s help picked and prepped, to be vehicles they would try to take over and make their servants to complete their remaining overcoming of humanness to qualify to become Young Members of the Next Level Above Human, the graduation Jesus laid out some of the requirements for, that he called being “born of Spirit/Mind” after they were “born again of water” (flesh).

And if they did take an interest in the Hale Bopp Comet, they would learn that DO not only considered it the Marker they had been waiting for but how He considered it the Marker He and TI had been anticipating coming all along that included TI’s spacecraft coming to literally pick them up, something neither they or I qualified for.

They would come to see how different Hale Bopp was from any other comets. And if they weren’t interested in it and UFO’s then how did they expect to provide service by explaining TI and DO’s teachings and thinking about such things.

Regarding UFO’s, a boring subject? Again, isn’t there a great value to learning at least what DO said about the subject over the years they missed. For instance in the end of that document DO wrote entitled, “’88 Update – The UFO Two and Their Crew” there was a list of books and video’s DO found interesting about the subjects of UFO’s and Space Aliens. The list included several books and Video’s about UFO’s like “UFO Crash at Aztec”, “The Roswell Incident”, the documentary “UFO’s What’s Going On” and much more. There were the autopsy reports from Leonard Stringfield and much more.

No wonder why they seem to hate me and Cathy and Carlan. Though we are far from perfect we are attempting to bring eyes and ears to all the information DO and Crew left behind for us (all in the world) to consume. They don’t seem to want to do that except in the most minimal way of keeping the website up and eventually posting the Beyond Human Series on Vimeo after they had been posted on HeavensGateDatabase for close to two decades. And they still hardly send anyone any of the audio tapes yet they are filled with a vast amount of information that to even someone who has no belief in TI and DO would find fascinating. Why hasn’t the Heaven’s Gate Book been put on Amazon or other places on the internet. It’s like they don’t want to sell them. I think they are blinded by their own fears that people will kill themselves yet all they have to do is keep on reminding people of the posting on the website that is entitled, “Our Position Against Suicide” and what DO said about that action in DO’s Final Exit, that death isn’t a ticket to Heaven and what Stmody said about suicide being of no value for those who remained who had not had a relationship with an incarnate Representative and how we all need our human vehicles to use to learn the many lessons there are to learn in the human kingdom including conquering addictions and selfishness and dealing with certain failures and jealousies, etc.

Plus to say definitively that, “there was no craft following the comet” further shows they don’t know how wrong they can be and that they both need desperately to begin to accept the reasons why they were sent out of the Class and accept the embarrassment that comes with that and stop acting like they are these great leaders assigned by DO to be some type of overseers of the legacy of TI and DO (by hiding away 1061 audio tapes) acting exactly opposite what TI and DO and Crew clearly expressed many times in many ways in the past and even in the Letters they sent to them, Rkkody, Jhnody and no doubt others about what they hoped would happen after their exit Perform the Dissemination Project.

They show their ignorance and huge ego to tell me I’m not working for the Next Level. It’s just like this statement that there is “no craft following the comet”. How do they KNOW that. Are they so in tune with TI and DO’s Mind. If so how come DO didn’t say there was no companion object with Hale Bopp Comet? What DO said was that “it was irrelevant” whether there was or wasn’t a spacecraft with Hale Bopp Comet because he knew TI was coming to pick him and his students up with or without their physical bodies (which is part of why they packed a bag).

Actually when one examines all the documentation we can find on the existence of a companion object one could come upon, as I have, the photograph from a Japanese Observatory that shows evidence of a large object close to Hale Bopp Comet and how when Hale Bopp disappeared behind the Sun and came out the other side it then had three tails, which was before then unheard of. Comets normally have two tails. Plus in the gatherings that scientists did in the years after Hale Bopp came to perihelion they studied many pictures and determined that it had a “dual nucleus” and that these two nucleus’ were in orbit around a common center. In other words it appeared to be two objects. Perhaps the Companion merged with Hale Bopp and hence the third tail as in the Japanese photo the alleged companion had a black tail.

Niklas:

By October 1996, Heaven’s Gate – still using the Total Overcomers Anonymous moniker – had left Arizona for California. They took up residence in the exclusive San Diego community of Rancho Santa Fe, renting an enormous mansion for a whopping $7,000 per month. Earlier that same year, the Group had founded a web-design company called Higher Source; I’m assuming this is what allowed for the accommodation upgrade.

20. Mark:

– We think there has been a misunderstanding about the financial assistance provided by Higher Source. It was basically a wash. A lot of money was invested when the company started in April 1996 – computers, technology, etc. – and it only lasted until February 1997. There was some revenue from website contracts during those ten months, but the start-up costs were very high. In late March or April 1997, we tried to acquire some of the account receivables the Class asked us to retrieve but got none of it. The clients denied having had work done or even knowing anyone from the Group. Some out of embarrassment for being associated with a ‘cult’, whereas others just didn’t want to pay the bill. So, Higher Source did not bring in the kind of funds the rumors say. We have their financial ledgers, and it simply isn’t true.

Niklas:

How did Heaven’s Gate come to have so many skilled IT professionals?

21. Mark:

– It wasn’t the case of having skilled IT professionals: they were devoted Next Level members who could perform whatever tasks they were assigned. Many of those who worked in this field did not have computer backgrounds. Students learned, improved, and excelled. We could switch our skills to whatever discipline was needed to carry out the task at hand. Classmates could write and edit a book, then switch to handling a backhoe the day after, only to start developing construction skills when building the Earthship. The Group switched over to the internet and coding in 1996. Whatever was needed could be filled by members. Many individuals learned to code, and the best were picked for service. With a clear, focused, and disciplined mind, you can handle many things coming your way.

21. Sawyer:

Mllody was the first Class-member to get an OOC Task working with computers. She had a college degree in IT, trained to be a Cobol Programmer before she joined with TI and DO. Mllody quickly qualified to have jobs for Banks like MTech and Computer Companies like Hewelet Packard. She advanced to become a Programmer Analyst even a manager of those kinds of departments in big corporations.

Nrrody also might have had a degree before she joined as she became a manager of Technical Writing for Dell and for Texas Instruments and other large corporations.

It was in the 1980’s when TI and DO bought us an Apple IIe computer. They wanted others to learn office work using computers so we’d get better jobs in the world to support the needs of the Classroom and so that we wouldn’t have such unpredictable schedules we had with the restaurant jobs most of us had then. They wanted us to have 9am to 5pm Monday thru Friday jobs so we could count on having weekends off for more concentrated Class lesson time, meetings with TI and DO. Plus they paid better. I was given the option to get familiar with the Apple IIe and I was intrigued by scrolling the pages of computer code that made programs work so I studied the coding language Apple Basic.

I advanced in office jobs to gain contracting programming jobs in Texas. Srrody who also either had some skills or developed them from study like I did, also got good Assembly Language and C Programming jobs, while mine were using BASIC and 4GL’s like DBase, etc. At one point DO had Srrody and I form a company. We got a DBA for the name, Think Link and later another called, Word Wise. We secured a contract to develop software for a Houston Bank I think we got paid about 8,000.00 for.

Later 5 of us got jobs at Subscriber Computing, Inc. in California. I was a programmer there as was Srrody. Mllody was a programmer Analyst manager and Nrrody the manager of the Tech Writing documentation department. Stlody was a Networking Technician. We lived in San Diego area while working those jobs remotely all from one room in the Craft. Then when we moved to Arizona, Mllody and Nrrody kept their manager jobs by doing so with conference calls and occasionally flying back to California to attend mandatory meetings.

I could be wrong but believe I held down programming jobs even before TI left her vehicle in 1985 but if those were just office jobs then I certainly was programming by the time Mark and Sarah were sent out of the Class in 1987 but perhaps Mark just didn’t know about that happening to say the programming started in 1996.

Niklas:

In October 1996, the Group released two videos: Last Chance to Evacuate Earth Before it’s Recycled and Planet About to be Recycled – Your Only Chance to Survive – Leave with Us. This concept of an impending Recycling was a core tenet in the Heaven’s Gate worldview. They believed the Next Level to regularly carry out full planetary resets of the environment, as well as of any lifeforms sustained by it. This is typically implemented through catastrophic natural events, such as whatever ended the era of dinosaurs. The only chance for consciousness to survive would be to transcend to the Next Level. From their perspective, actual suicide would be staying behind to face the Recycling as an ordinary human. But simply offing oneself without having first qualified for and then organized a Next Level collection is pointless, seeing as how it would merely trigger another cycle of reincarnation.

22. Mark:

– Srfody and I found the information on the tapes consistent with what we’d been taught. As you know, they were styled differently to appeal either to a religious or a sci-fi-oriented audience, respectively. For security reasons, the Group often had us handling the shipping. We sent them out to the appropriate locations: many legal, governmental, and religious entities in the United States and the rest of the world received copies. We also dealt with the returns, of which there were many. Lots of ‘Return to Sender’, ‘We don’t want your tapes’, and similar mean-spirited rejections. The religious organizations were especially rough. Every TV evangelist received a tape, and their responses were mixed. It is always amazing to see what kind of behavior such people can justify as compatible with their teachings.

22. Sawyer:

Because of the many responses from Mark in this interview, many of which the reader will come to read, to where Mark seems to have a view of DO as a leader who believed rumors about Mark and Sarah put forth by certain classmembers and felt DO believed he made a mistake to send Mark and Sarah out of the Class, this first statement seems to reflect that same attitude. He says, “Srfody and I found the information on the tapes consistent with what we’d been taught.” Was there ever a possibility that what DO said in those video tapes of DO speaking might not be consistent with what He taught? I could be wrong but from a bunch of things Mark and Sarah have said to me personally and have done, I suspect they were comparing things DO said in those tapes with things TI (and DO?) said when TI was still in her human vehicle. This is not a fabricated idea as I’ve said before.

A number of former students, among them, Rthody (Michael in docs), Andody (Frank in docs), Pmmody (Lee Ann in docs), Dncody, (Dick in docs), Cddody (Fred in docs), to varied degrees, along with academics like Professor Robert Balch (who infiltrated the group in 1975 to study them) and lately used more in docs, Professor Ben Zellar and others, all at one time have said to me privately and/or publicly, if I recall correctly, that after TI left her vehicle in 1985, DO changed the direction TI would have had the Class go, even not leading to “suicide” – laying down – leaving their human vehicles by their own hands.

Considering how Mark and/or Sarah were quoted to have said publicly after the Groups exit, in 1997, I think on the Art Bell show, that “the gate is closed” after DO had said in a press release that there was (paraphrased), a “brief window of time to exit with them” and because Mark and Sarah have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they don’t value DO’s instruction in the Letter DO sent to them that instructed them to (paraphrased)… “divide the items of value among those inclined to disseminate our information,” which should have included giving audio tapes to Crlody (Carlan) and myself (Swyody) (as well as Jhnody and others), especially considering we were fully engaged with sending people the 200+ audio tapes Rkkody had retrieved from Storage. The reason Mark told me he would not give me any audio tapes was because I would put them on the internet for anyone to have and that they were meant to be only used privately. Also in this interview Mark said something about their belief that TI would have exited sooner than DO did as if to say DO was off track in that way as well.

What Mark didn’t address from what Niklas stated was that DO never said there would be no “consciousness to survive” the recycling and that only those who transcended their humanness would survive but DO said that there were three groups of people who could survive the spading under of the garden and the last group didn’t have to know anything about TI and DO but that more is required of those who do know about TI and DO.

DO also didn’t say that staying behind to face the recycling would be suicide. It wasn’t a fact but a warning that the longer we are hear the more the lower forces can work on us to find reasons to stay but that while we are hear we can serve which is our choice. I don’t know what it means to say one must organize a “Next Level Collection.”

Also, I find the way Mark and Sarah and in this case Niklas talk about reincarnation seems to me to not jive with what DO said about reincarnation. Many humans think reincarnation is automatic after death. But I believe it can be shown that TI and DO taught that reincarnation is a choice when it’s referring to souls – a choice the Next Level helps Souls they want to return to choose the body they are going to work with when it’s time to do so when Older Members are coming incarnate. Spirits don’t really reincarnate because they are really just like leaches though one can choose not to be.

Niklas:

Mrcody believes these videos, along with the written material produced during the Group’s final years, primarily targeted the hundreds of former members across the country. Despite dropping out, often due to an inability to master their human urges, many remained Next Level devotees. Should Mrcody be right about this, it would explain one conundrum I’ve been grappling with regarding their last-minute recruitment run. My layman’s interpretation is that an individual must undergo an extensive Classroom setup – taught by Next Level tutors – to be eligible for graduation. And, as I’m sure Mrcody could attest to, this is unlikely to be attained in a mere few months.

23. Mark:

– Yes, it would be nearly impossible for the uninitiated to fully understand the ways of the Next Level within such a limited time frame. The Group indicated to us clearly that they were always going after former members. They wanted them to be part of the upcoming departure. There were never any indications of when this might occur, but they had to cast nets and former students were the easiest to catch. The only new individuals to bite were Lkkody and Dvvody, in September 1996. The Group were going to put them in our halfway house in Phoenix but decided to just accept them into the Rancho Santa Fe craft instead. Dvvody took to it, but Lkkody was out in weeks. Dvvody was indeed an exception – definitely ‘the last shall be first’.

23. Sawyer:

Nothing is impossible with the Next Level. I really dislike the way Mark talks here. “The Group was always GOING AFTER (my upper case) former members.” It’s not even accurate to say that way. I mean, sure TI and DO wanted to provide what they knew to former students but when DO had the video Jwnody and I made in 1992 put up on satellite dish, uploaded by Hughs aircraft that was with the idea of presenting the truth to Christians and I would say most of the former members were not among them.

There was little to no response so DO reconsidered and felt to make the Beyond Human Video Tape Series which we also uploaded to a Satellite TV channel. The address provided was TOA that went to a Post Office Box that kept on being forwarded to wherever we moved to after that. Most of the replies came from former students.

But next DO wrote the USA Today Info/Ad and that was put in that newspaper on May 27th, 1993 if I recall correctly and it too had a PO Box people could write to. From that we got quite a number of requests for more information from prisoners and others all over the U.S. who we began to correspond with. We had a number of partnerships assigned by DO to keep up with certain ones who wrote us. We sent some Beyond Human video tapes. We even attracted a homeless person who DO had meet with Alxody and myself in Flagstaff, AZ while we lived in Paradise Valley, AZ to see if he might fit into the Classroom. I spoke to DO on the phone and expressed that Alxody and I didn’t feel any reason to not bring him to the Classroom. He did join us and soon left because he couldn’t fit in. He chose the name, Ready so became Rddody. He was okay at first but soon thereafter he began to be critical of me and others and DO told him about his not being able to judge me (us) and so he couldn’t handle that criticism so left the Class.

Then when we put the new version of the USA Today Info/Ad into a bunch of New Agey Periodicals in New Zealand, Australia, England, Scotland, Canada and all over the U.S. we again received mail and exchanged letters and sent some Beyond Human video tapes to some. Again none were former students and DO felt from they would really need to be in the Class to progress and that wasn’t possible, shown also by Ready (Rddody).

Then that prompted DO and Crew to prepare to hold face to face meetings all over the U.S. which we started as a test case with Denver that Jwnody and I were speakers for and in Albuquerque where Chkody and perhaps Alxody were speakers. That seemed to be a positive so we prepared to live camping again and drove away on January 1, 1994 to hold meetings. From that 9 months we had added over 12 new members and only a few were former classmembers and at least one of them, Arrody when he realized in September of 1994 that we were talking about laying down our vehicles by our own hands, decided that wasn’t for him so left us.

Then when Dvvody and Lkkody who were married in the world and had 4 children together wanted to join and did, again these were not former students.

This terminology of throwing out a net to catch new members was hardly if ever used by TI and DO. Sure there is a parallel but that also can be a big turn off and it’s hard enough for people to see through the discarnate and space alien influences that want to keep people’s eyes shut to seeing who TI and DO are. Though I don’t mind that I was “caught” but what was really happening is that the vehicle was caught by the Soul with that vehicle and offered training like a Rancher going to the wild to catch some horses and then for those that accept the ranchers training they even become part of the ranchers family while the others are let to go wild again.

But I don’t think he is right by the evidence I just showed to say the former students were “easiest to catch”. Another point to this not being our mindset of catching people. At the Chicago meeting in 1994 that Evnody and I as overseers of one of the Groups were speakers at, we met with two in the audience that said they wanted to join us. When I told them how we were living and eating pretty much what we were given in donations, even fast food, they said they couldn’t do it because they were strict vegans. We at one point had been stricter vegans than most vegans but that wasn’t the program now so that was a strong indication that they would be too ridged to fit within the group so we turned them away.

We at that time nor thereafter don’t need to have new believers or followers. It’s simply our joy to see some responding that way but as soon as they choose to take some other path it’s like how fast can we help you leave because we have tasks to do for the Next Level and are interfered with by people who are on the fence.

In 1996 I’m not aware of who had been in Mark and Sarah’s “halfway house”. When I was there for several weeks there wasn’t anything half way about it, not at least as I saw it. But perhaps I didn’t know of someone in the class staying with them as a half way situation.

Niklas:

Matthew 20:16, ‘So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.’ On March 21, 1997 – the day before Hale-Bopp’s closest proximity to Earth – Mrcody and Srfody had a conference call with Do and the Class. The Group announced that plans had been made to take the leap, so to speak, and travel off-world. They had some requests regarding the management of their legacy.

24. Mark:

– They all thanked us profusely for what we had done and would do. It was a very kind and loving call. We had just received a parcel containing the latest version of their anthology and knew they wanted us, with the help of Oscody, to make sure it got published and submitted to the Library of Congress. We talked about that as well as the other work coming our way. However, we didn’t quite realize the full scope of our task until the FedEx boxes arrived the following Wednesday.

24. Sawyer:

First off, Simple error of no consequence – Mark and Sarah knew the group had told them they had exited in their Letter in the Fedx package they admitted to receiving on March 25th which was a Tuesday. So if they received a conference call from DO and The Class on March 21st, a Friday it wasn’t the following Wednesday when they knew the full scope of what their tasks were to be.

If what Niklas says here about the 21st call included The Class saying to Mark and Sarah that “plans had been made to take the leap” then when Mark and Sarah received the Fed X that following Tuesday, the 25th why didn’t they open it right away to read it’s contents and since Rkkody reported when he called Mark that same day on the 25th he was told by Mark that they hadn’t yet examined it closely, why didn’t Mark immediately report that news to Sarah at home. Rkkody called Sarah at home right after he hung up with Mark and said that Sarah didn’t believe him that the Class had exited. According to Rkkody when Mark got home that afternoon or night he shared the Fedx with Sarah.

I understand that Mark and Sarah could have thought the entire time they had had some association with the Group after they were sent out of the Group that the Group prepared a packet to be sent to the world should they exit. Mark and Sarah both knew that while TI was in her vehicle they did that every year as well. Apparently because they weren’t in the Class that whole time they didn’t know how series DO was about exiting at that time. Had they been in touch with Neody (Rio) after Rio left about two weeks before the Class left, he could have told Mark and Sarah how serious they were about exiting then, with the timing of the Hale Bopp Comets perihelion.

Mark reversed history in this statement regarding Oscody and the book instructions from DO and Crew regarding the registration of the book with the Library of Congress when that task was given to Oscody not to Mark and Sarah. He says, “We had just received a parcel containing the latest version of their anthology and knew they wanted us, with the help of Oscody, to make sure it got published and submitted to the Library of Congress.”

Here is the direct instruction Mark and Sarah received. On page two of one of the Letters they got from DO’s crew on March 25, 1997 by Fed X, (that the reason we have is because they gave those Letters to Rkkody on March 27, 1997, according to Rkkody and Crlody who learned this from Rkkody, to turn over all their tasks the Class gave them for Rkkody and Oscody to do, which was what DO’s Crew suggested if they couldn’t or didn’t want to do the tasks themselves as They hoped. It states:

“We also asked Oscody to register the Heaven’s Gate book with the Library of Congress and that if he needed any funds to accomplish this, that you would cover it out of the project funds that you have on hand.”

It was Oscody’s task. He was assigned to be the primary and all Mark and Sarah were instructed to do in that regard to the Library of Congress was to provide the funds for it if Oscody needed those funds.

As Mark often does as shown throughout this interview is twist things, probably not intentionally but probably forgetting what the instructions actually were. He also probably added himself into the task and may have even canoodled the task away from Oscody. My understanding from Crlody who learned it from Rkkody was that Oscody also received $10,000.00 from the Class for the Project.

Also what “project” were they talking about. In several other Letters to Mark and Sarah and to Rkkody and to Jhnody the Project is spelled out to be the Dissemination Project. And this is the project Mark and Sarah hid from starting and then when they wanted it back, expanded on it so that they began to think only they were given such project even though DO said they could include those on the list as some to work with initially at least but could include others in and DO didn’t name others so it was up to “others” who made their desire to share in the dissemination task known. Thus Mark and Sarah should have, like Rkkody shared with me the audio tapes at least since they were digitized so easy to share.

Niklas:

Starting March 22, employing the same teamwork efficiency with which they prospered both professionally and privately, the remaining thirty-nine members went to their human deaths in three shifts over three days. Those in line for evacuation ingested a lethal dose of an anti-seizure medication called phenobarbital and then potentiated it by downing some vodka. This would’ve been the first drop of alcohol many of the students consumed for over twenty years. Wearing identical uniforms, complete with the famous Heaven’s Gate Away Team patches and Nike shoes, they pulled plastic bags over their heads, secured them, and laid down to die. Upon expiry, Classmates from the next shift removed the bags and draped their corpses with purple shrouds. Do was part of the third and final wave, which was down to nine people. He left third to last, assisted by Lvvody and Jnnody – two women in their mid-forties, the former of which attended the Waldport meeting with Mrcody – who then covered him and followed suit. The next day, March 25, Mrcody and Srfody received a FedEx parcel containing a personal letter addressed to them, a press release, a list of the other recipients, account details for heavensgate.com, and various keys to cars and storage units complete with maps and directions. There were also two tapes containing ‘exit videos’, showing the departed members’ goodbyes. I’m trying to imagine what it must have been like to watch these heartfelt but visibly elated farewells from people they’d shared so much with.

25. Mark:

– The two videos were in SVHS format and could not be played on our home equipment, so we had to get them converted and then watched both in one sitting. We do not feel sorrow. We were happy they made it, but there was simultaneously the sense of having a big task ahead of us. It felt really special, and the humor we saw directed at us was very funny. Do and the Group loved laughter.

25. Sawyer:

I don’t know why that statement about humor was included in this interview.

For the record, Rkkody and Jhnody and as many as 4 others also received Fed X packages on March 25, 1997 from DO and Crew. In each of them as I understand it they received maps to be able to find them in the house, certain exit tapes and recycling tapes and Beyond Human Series tapes and in Rkkody and Jhnody’s case, at least, received the Anthology version one of Their Book with instructions.

Niklas:

Speaking of which, I’ve found the Heaven’s Gate material to contain some rather subtle and clever elements of humor Nothing whimsical, but more of a dry and poignant wit. Several remarks in Do’s tapes, as well as the ’88 Update, for example. Not to mention the Nike shoes; ‘Just Do it’. Jwnody – Mrcody’s old check-partner, the one who was pregnant when she joined the Group – closed her exit statement with a Star Trek reference: ‘Thirty-nine to beam up!’

26. Mark:

– We were laughing all the time. Their wit was priceless. The pocket contents of an ID, a five-dollar bill, and some coins was hilarious. Sending us non-durable power of attorney over everyone in the Group, knowing they terminated on death… could you imagine the reaction if someone had survived, and their families found out we held the legal authority? The account receivables from Higher Source, even though every single client would deny all affiliation. The Class knew we’d get the back of the hand from some former students, but our letter said, ‘You are about to inherit what’s left of our purser task, to do with as you choose.’ Our detractors never mention that sentence. Also, the ‘If you choose to accept this mission’ part is especially delicious. Their love of fun was wonderful.

26. Sawyer:

I have no problem with how they performed the Purser tasks they were given. My problem is with how to handle the Groups Intellectual Property – disseminate it freely without strings and they don’t like that unless they are doing it and they won’t do it so the information remains hidden for now over 20 years.

Even though we know that Members of the Class could make mistakes and DO didn’t necessarily examine and re-examine every purser choice, relying on his crew members to do the necessary research, as ultimately any mistakes made by Pursers weren’t going to affect their intention for their information to be disseminated to the world. But to read what Mark said here as:

“Sending us non-durable power of attorney over everyone in the Group, knowing they terminated on death… could you imagine the reaction if someone had survived, and their families found out we held the legal authority?”

To me when I read this it felt almost like a mockery of Pursers and ultimately AGAIN DO, the families had someone lived would have been outraged to find Mark and Sarah holding their rights. First off the Pursers said they were sending them “a comprehensive Power of Attorney”. The reason they were given power of attorney was described in their Purser letter:

“We are sending you a comprehensive Power of Attorney for anyone expecting a tax refund, or who has major items (cars, credit cards, insurance, rent, etc.) in their name. We don’t know if these will be accepted by those you deal with, or if you’ll have any reason to use them.”

I haven’t seen the documents so I don’t doubt that legally they were non-durable thus terminate upon the principals decease but if I were to guess about what happened in that case, I would say Pursers may have overlooked that a comprehensive power of Attorney, depending upon the language could be non-durable as they did wish for Mark and Sarah to have access to the funds they might get from tax refunds and assets in certain classmates legal names.

Yes, they stated in the Letters that they could do whatever they felt was right for them, but DO also had his Crew writing the letters state what DO and Crew’s desire was. Thus it became a matter of doing the task DO wanted them to do or doing it their own way. Mark and Sarah chose to ignore much of what DO’s desire was and instead do things their own way and that’s why so much got botched and that they are continuing to botch. DO’s desires are not complicated.

It’s sad that they talk about getting the back of the hand from some former students when they have been using a club against us hiding the audio tapes and not allowing us to make an audio Heaven’s gate book and not allowing anyone to support our own efforts of dissemination of Their Information by putting their images on T shirts and other places for sale. After all DO’s Crew said from the items of value retrieved from storage one could make some funds to support the project from them. They won’t even let us play part of an audio tape on my YouTube channel anymore. They allowed me to do it for over 15 years and now that I have more audios they are suing me for playing them and others.

Niklas:

What were the five-dollar bill and quarters in the Exit Team uniform pockets about?

27. Mark:

– According to the autopsy report, the individuals who departed had all sorts of change in their pockets. Some were found with pennies and dimes, others with only one quarter. When heading out to our OOC tasks each day, we brought along our state ID – usually a driver’s license – so that we could legally identify ourselves. We also took a five-dollar bill to cover the vagrancy fines in any state, plus one to three quarters to call the house if we were running late. Humans take these things for granted and never consider why they must have them to function in society. It was our way of not letting ourselves be tripped up by petty legal issues. To us, this ‘dispatch procedure’ was rather amusing since we knew it was a wink and a nod at former Classmates. Did they need to do this? No. Was it indicative of following basic procedures until the end? Yes. Was it an inside joke? Yes. Humans were confused about this because it was for us to joke about, not them. It was a lovable trait we appreciated greatly.

27. Sawyer:

I recall that initially we also were given a $5 bill and some change to use the $5 if our task out of the craft was delayed and we were missing an experiment (what we called a meal) to buy something to tide us over and/or to make a phone call as needed.

Mark doesn’t seem to consider that to DO and Crew it was possible TI could heal their vehicles and/or resurrect those vehicles and/or take the vehicles and even make a spectacle of it and send a Next Level Member on a task using that vehicle they would heal and/or use the clothing for Members of the Next Level to do a task on earth and not look like they were from the early 1900’s.

Also Mark Twain, in his movie Captain Stormfield’s Trip to Heaven, written in the first decade of the 1900’s states that the fare to ride the tail of a comet to Heaven was $5.75. I didn’t think all had that amount but got reports that a number did.

I don’t think it was that much of an “inside joke”, though yes it was humorous, but I think it also was making a statement that any who did the research would find out how much Mark Twain (Samuel Clemmons) was far ahead of his time.

I know I could be wrong about this and it’s not really anything I consider important to consider because I don’t recall DO or TI talking about the 1897 UFO crash that happened in Aurora, Texas. I began to wonder if this was a Next Level stimulated crash as it had one occupant in the report and wasn’t a human. I wondered if the Soul that was in that vehicle had a task to perhaps be like a John the Baptist to begin to prepare the U.S. for the upcoming return and even influencing Samuel Clemmons in his use of the Mark Twain character. Samuel was also a Mississippi River boat captain. The captains deck on such a boat was referred to as the Tejas (Texas) deck where the Captain resided. DO whose vehicle was from Texas where TI and DO both chose to incarnate into human vehicles prepared for them, talked about being like a Captain in Next Level rank where he talked about TI being like an Admiral, using Navy terms, again like the captain of a ship (Riverboat). The Mississippi River, TI and DO considered to be a type of dividing line on the U.S. “ship” to where west of the Mississippi River was where They felt most in touch with their Older Member (who would have been on a spacecraft somewhere in outer space (heavens) overseeing Their task. When TI and DO would travel east of the Mississippi River they felt that sense of being in contact with their Older Member diminish or even be absent. It’s of further interest that in…

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

…there is the depiction of a “reed like unto a rod” used to “measure the temple of God”. In biblical interpretations, a River is a way of depicting many humans, even with seas referring to the sea of humanity. The Temple can be thought of in at least three ways. It’s the building where Humans worship God. DO said to worship really meant, “to work for”. Another meaning refers to the Souls inside of People who are making further application to graduate out of the human kingdom and into the Evolutionary Kingdom Level Above Human, aka Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven – the literal heavens (elevated areas above the earth where the planets and stars are).

It was interesting that Mark Twain was a river boat Captain and one of his tasks was to “measure the depth of the water” so his boat won’t run aground They used a long rod to measure the depth. This was the first verse in Chapter 11 of the Book of Revelation that went on to talk about the Two Witnesses and their both being “Christs” – anointed ones that Zechariah showed in prophecy of seeing TWO that he recounted he received from an “angel”.

So I began to think of the Western U.S. as the Temple area. TI and DO did venture east of the Mississippi to look for potential lost souls who hadn’t made their way west like most of those who became their students.

Next I began to examine the next verse in Revelation 11…

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

…which talks about The Court that is outside the Temple and not to measure it, hence very few meetings were held in the eastern portion of the U.S. during either the 1975-6 public meetings or the 1994 public meetings. However, DO didn’t follow prophecy so he had us still venture into those areas to be thorough and did find a few students there. In the 1990’s DO had the Crew begin to measure areas east of the Western U.S. relative to the two sides of the Mississippi River yet few attended those meetings.

When Cathy and I got together, Cathy being a relatively new believer in TI and DO was more on fire with the Information than I. After all there was a lot of tapes, etc. that I had heard and I was sort of in the mindset that most of what I would do to disseminate TI and DO’s information would be best done through the internet.

But now we were together and she wanted to see if we could set up meetings wherever so she set up a meeting in L.A. in November of 2021 and then of late in Savannah, Georgia on December 17, 2022. At the meeting in Savannah there was a sizable interest. Perhaps this is the time for the Court is most appropriate for meetings but I suspect it’s all over.

I am not of a mind that TI and DO and Crew did anything for one purpose alone. I doubt they did anything to be an inside joke for former Classmembers even though former Classmembers would be able to bring practical thinking to much that they did.

My book is full of these kinds of potential connections and I feel there are still more to be discovered.

Niklas:

On March 26, the day after the FedEx delivery, two former students named Rkkody and Oscody – both of whom had received letters of their own – flew to San Diego to retrieve vehicles and various Classroom materials. They picked up the Lincoln Continental waiting for them at the airport and then drove to the Group’s commercial storage space.

28. Mark:

– It was an opportunity for Rkkody to clear out the storage room. Oscody tried to get him to do it, but Rkkody was only interested in some audio tapes, his designated automobile, and the cash stored in it. Rkkody said his back was hurting, so he didn’t want to put the contents into the moving truck we’d assigned to him. They then went up to the mansion in Rancho Santa Fe at about 5:30 pm and were met by a large police presence. Rio, another former member, had made his way there first. Rkkody and Oscody left the area and drove to Phoenix.

28. Sawyer:

How come Mark doesn’t correct Niklas’ understanding of the timing when Rkkody and Oscody went to San Diego on the 26th. Maybe he still doesn’t know what Rkkody wrote in his manuscript. Rkkody knew nothing about the instructions Mark and Sarah received on March 25, 1997 in their Fed X packet that contained Letters from The Class. The evidence that Mark and/or Sarah had read at least the Letters addressed to them in the packet is because according to Rkkody, Mark and Sarah called him at least on the 25th and 26th wanting their address at this business that they agreed to provide to the Class to be taken off the website, as they knew Rkkody had the website access codes and know how to make changes. The Class talked about Rkkody doing that task in the Letter to Mark and Sarah. Mark and Sarah also said they planned to take their names and Rkkody’s name off the letter DO asked them to send to SAM, the owner of the house, after they had a “chance to get to the address” where their bodies were layed down to their death. That instruction about sending that letter was in their letter.

Here is the segment from the bottom of page 2 of the Letter addressed to MRC/SRF signed by The Class:

“URGENT Note: Please drop the letter in the mail addressed to our landlord, Sam, as soon as you feel comfortable that he will not get that letter before you have a chance to get to the address listed in the “Location” document.”

After all, Mark/Sarah knew Rkkody and Oscody went to San Diego on the morning of the 26th. It’s hard to imagine Mark/Sarah didn’t know before they left about the content of the Letters addressed to them since the instructions on handling that Letter to SAM was in the same letter as I just showed.

So it seems evident Mark and Sarah caused both Rkkody and Oscody a wasted trip to San Diego area.

Rkkody said he was on the phone with Mark/Sarah on that wasted trip as they were coming back. Mark just skips telling about how Rkkody and Oscody went back to San Diego area on March 27th 1997 after Mark/Sarah gave Rkkody most all their letters so on that second trip they did have most of the instructions and keys to get the cars with. But I don’t know how much opportunity Rkkody and Oscody had to study the contents of Mark/Sarah’s letters as for some reason they didn’t know about the Yellow Truck for that trip.

If Mark/Sarah had alerted Rkkody/Oscody to the need to get the truck, then they wouldn’t have only retrieved the Lincoln to have very limited space to haul away the full contents of storage that the Class didn’t want authorities to have.

Key points on the Timeline according to Rkkody’s manuscript:

March 25, 1997: Rkkody received two packets and read them and called Mark who was with Oscody. They hadn’t looked at the contents of their own packets completely by then, he wrote that he learned on that call. Rkkody slept on it.

March 26, 1997: Rkkody flew to Phoenix from Denver and he and Oscody drove to San Diego from Phoenix and got to San Diego area before the news had broke and got about 10 minutes away from the house at Rancho Sante Fe and heard on the radio that the bodies were discovered.

Rkkody doesn’t indicate at that time that he knew anything about the cars or the truck or the contents of Storage. It was the 27th when they learned of the cars and Storage instructions from Mark and Sarah when they turned over all their Letters to him.

So they flew back to Phoenix that same night and stayed at Oscody’s place there and Mark called Rkkody around 3am (Thursday the 27th) wanting Rkkody to make changes to the website to get their address off of it, though it was the address they gave to the Class to use.

Rkkody said he couldn’t do that at first because when he tried the server was down from all the hits the website took.

Then that morning of the 27th, they met with Mark and Sarah in a parking lot and Mark and Sarah gave him all the correspondence they received from DO and Crew, plus keys to some 7 cars/vans/trucks they had parked at the San Diego Airport and paid for and the codes to three storage lockers in two locations, San Diego and 2 in Escondido.

Then Rkkody and Oscody flew to San Diego, took a shuttle to the airport parking and took L car, the Lincoln that was instructed in the letters to go to Rkkody and they drove it to the storage in Escondido and opened the storage and it was full and they took 6-7 boxes of audio tapes out and put them in L car and went to the other storage unit in that complex and saw that it was mostly filled with camping equipment and household items. Then they went back to the airport parking area and got M Van slated for Oscody to have and put some of the audios in it and then Rkkody and Oscody drove back towards Phoenix. They stopped at a motel after driving for a couple of hours and slept and early the next morning of Friday the 28th drove the rest of the way to Phoenix.

I feel Mark is trying to muddy the waters here of what happened because they don’t want to admit they ran away from doing the task DO gave them to do.

The way Mark talks about this Rkkody and Oscody went to Storage before they went to Rancho Sante Fe. But that wasn’t possible as they didn’t know about the Storage locations nor units nor codes and also didn’t have the keys because Mark and Sarah who had all that information didn’t give it to Rkkody until the morning of the 27th. Their failure resulted in San Diego getting most of the contents of Storage.

Mark says, “Rkkody was only interested in some audio tapes…”, but what other “items of value” in that storage room were the most valuable items of value if not the audio tape library that he and Oscody only got 486 of? In Mark and Sarah’s letter Rkkody was designated to have the L Car and the Letter also said that he, Oscody and Mrc/Srf (Mark and Sarah) were getting money, so why not get it.

Why didn’t Mark and Sarah help with that retrieval of cars and as the Letter from DO’s Crew said, regarding the Storage “any items of value that are retrievable by you be divided among those who feel inclined to disseminate our information” task? They did nothing though DO made them the primary on those tasks. It seems quite apparent they were too scared to do anything so they turned over the task to Rkkody and Oscody just like Rkkody reported in his manuscript and told Carlan happened. Mark conveniently doesn’t ever talk about those clear instructions from DO in the Letter.

Some might say that Mark and Sarah gave Rkkody and Oscody their Letters because that was the best way to give them the exact addresses to the storage units and the pass codes to the various storage units. Fair enough, but then why include the Letter that the Class sent to them addressed to Chris and Holly? And why give Rkkody the Letter from Purser re: the Higher Source company accounts receivables showing how much money they were owed and by whom. That Letter also listed Postal Boxes the group had, included Power of Attorneys/ID’s for them all, two Bank Accounts, one for Higher Source and one for Telah Services. It included Voicemails and even Phone Cards with money still on them and instructions that they shouldn’t have any bills to pay and expressing why they didn’t think they needed to cancel registrations and insurance for the cars because they figured they’d be sold or re-registered anyway. That Letter also indicated they had made arrangements to get them some funds that they were also sending to Oscody and Rkkody. They also got a Letter that said who else was receiving a similar letter and one of those was Rkkody so why give him anything but the information to get the cars they were given the task to be the primaries to retrieve from the airport in San Diego where they were prepaid for parking.

Rkkody wasn’t even sent all this information about the cars as they were and wasn’t told about the Storage Room because Rkkody wasn’t to be a primary on the task. Mark and Sarah surely knew that if they were given the instructions, they were the primaries on the task and that the suggestions to use Rkkody and Oscody and others as needed that was in their Letter was their choice to include as Secondaries on the task. Sure they were given the choice to not be primaries and to do whatever they felt right about but if they wanted to serve exactly according to DO’s hopes, they would have gone to storage. They even told Cathy and I in person that they did go to storage and the lock had already been put on the doors but according to Rkkody only Oscody went to Storage for the second and last time, who reported that to Rkkody and certainly to Mark and Sarah. They told Cathy and I they didn’t go to storage the first time because they had to go to San Diego to ID the bodies, but we learn hear they only sent a document to San Diego authorities to help them ID the bodies. They knew this looked bad for their version of the story and that it gives more credence to Rkkody’s version of the story that he wrote in his manuscript about that time that his daughter had and Carlan was given by her and that he just recently shared with me.

After all if Rkkody’s account of Mark and Sarah turning over their own Letters they received, with the keys to the cars parked in the airport in San Diego didn’t happen, and the truck in storage, then how did Rkkody get the keys and Letters. And why did certain Letters have the names blacked out when they were clearly meant for Mark and Sarah.

DO knew this might happen, I bet, which is why he gave Mark and Sarah the out of doing things their way. DO knew that Mark had demonstrated over years of not following certain procedures if they didn’t make sense to him. (See audio tape 37 where DO gives him several lessons in this regard and audio tape 204 where DO refers to having to “mute” Mrcody because he had become too much of a wagon master which was never procedure. And yet that’s exactly what they became surrounding the Intellectual property of Heaven’s Gate that they gained access to. Mark tried to lure me into his fold in the early 2000’s I think it was. He told me if I came to his area he would show me the proof that he and Sarah were to control all their Intellectual Property. I wanted nothing to do with his “group” he believed himself with Sarah to be the leaders of. I knew that DO’s intention (and TI’s) was for every believer to participate in disseminating Their Teachings to others. I’m not saying I wouldn’t have liked to work with the others that were still alive, like Flxody and Ablody and Pypody and even Jhnody and others that ended up gathering in Arkansas, but the task of disseminating wasn’t that complicated as they were making it into. Just do the task. Step out into the street or put up one’s shingle on the internet and share exactly what TI and DO said with others. By that time I was doing just that and only wanted him to stop hording the audio tapes so I could send them to people who were asking and deserved to receive them.

Mark said, “Rkkody said his back was hurting, so he didn’t want to put the contents into the moving truck we’d assigned to him.” We refers to he and Sarah.

This is another of Marks skewing the truth to make himself look like he was in charge. The assignment to the truck came from DO and Crew in the Letter to MRC/SRF (Mark and Sarah), the same letter Mark and Sarah gave to Rkkody because they apparently didn’t want to do the tasks DO gave them.

In the Letter it said, “We also have a 20 foot yellow truck in a separate storage unit and we did think that RKK would be a good choice to retrieve it. It’s big enough to be able to haul all of what’s in storage, we believe. The truck storage paperwork is also enclosed.”

Furthermore Rkkody received in one of his two Fed X packets from DO on March 25th 1997 “receipts and insurance forms for the old Ryder truck the class had bought a couple years ago in Texas”

Like I already said, I believe Rkkody’s account which says he and Oscody never got to the mansion. They were about 10 minutes away when they heard the story on the news so they turned around and went back to Phoenix.

I have no idea who told Mark that Rkkody didn’t get the contents of storage because his back hurt. Who else could have told them that, Oscody? I could see Rkkody opening the door to that large storage unit and seeing it filled to the top with boxes, saying something about his back, but did that mean he wouldn’t have found a way to tackle the task. The fact was according to his account that he didn’t have the truck with him at the storage unit at that time.

It appeared at that time that all Mark and Sarah cared about was getting rid of their names on the letter to SAM and taking off their mailing address on the Heaven’s Gate web site and hiding from the responsibility DO offered to them by turning over all the tasks to Rkkody via the Letters we have from DO to them because that’s how Rkkody got their letters in the first place.

For the record, Mark almost always puts Rkkody down as he does to me, Carlan and even Cathy and to date Juan (Jhnody) and he so often either has a very selective memory or just remembers little or manipulates the language to make him and Sarah look like they have no faults in anything that happened then or happens now. They are supreme finger pointers and yet they think we, Carlan and I are finger pointing at them except there is one huge different. We can prove using his own words that he and Sarah are either often sloppy in their recounting or leaving out crucial details or have contradicted what they even have said or are outright lying or only giving partial truths while taking no responsibility This interview by now I’ve shown to be full of these kinds of statements that even go against TI and DO wishes and Minds.

It’s very sad and I wish I didn’t have to be on their case but they are the instigators of hatred and negativity keeping TI and DO’s audio tapes away from people galore over 24 years while saying they want to share them with people. We have all this on record, expressed by them.

I believe Rkkody’s account 99% of the time more than Mark and Sarah’s accounts and I have multiple witnesses on this score. There is Carlan who worked with Rkkody at that time soon after the group left and Rkkody told him many things and Carlan witnessed many things coming out of the mouth of Mark and Sarah and the inclusion of lies and forms of deceit. There is Rkkody’s daughter who may not even believe in TI and DO but was sued by Mark and Sarah, who threatened to take away her house (as she wrote to me about in 1998, and Rkkody talked to me about in 1998 before he exited his vehicle). There is to date Cathy who was witness to emails from Mark about me before she knew me in person. And there is Jhnody (Juan) who saw through how Mark and Sarah had tried to keep people from sharing TI and DO’s book with others and the many audio tapes and how they have tried to issue strikes against me on YouTube for my fair use of the audio tapes Rkkody had sent me in 1997 and that Jhnody sent me in 2021. I won with YouTube became my channel, 3spm wasn’t monetized ever.

Speaking of Mark and Sarah instigating strikes against me on my YouTube channel: 3spm. They issued one against my reading TI’s only official document entitled, “The Power of Goodness”. Plus Cathy and I were reading aloud on the 3spm channel the Heaven’s Gate Book and they were against our doing that too. It’s even one of the seven counts against Cathy and I in their lawsuit against us. We wanted people to be able to turn the tapes on in the car or at work to listen to or for the blind to listen to. But they told us they need to be the controllers to oversee everything and though I have no problem with looking to overseers on tasks, they were not my overseer of anything as even though they were given tasks by DO doesn’t mean they are performing those tasks as DO hoped.

Rkkody has a lot to say in his manuscript and he had zero reason to lie, while Mark and Sarah have so much dirty laundry over the years from before and after the group left that they don’t even seem to know how far afield they have gone against TI and DO’s true wishes as expressed in the Letters, for the little tasks they were given that they may by now be hanging themselves in the stand they have been taking against them while making their teachings some saccharine pseudo spiritual religion.

Niklas:

Did you have any idea what awaited them in the mansion?

29. Mark:

– None of us knew the details of how the Class would exit, but we pieced it together soon enough. We were with our attorney group in downtown Phoenix and told them it was going to happen at any time. One of their assistants burst into the conference room and said, ‘Turn on CNN, now!’ Via our legal counsel, we assisted the San Diego County Sheriff’s Department throughout the evening. We sent them a chart of the expired so that they could be identified quickly. We supplied all the relevant information.

29. Sawyer:

The first day the news broke was March 26, 1997 so that must have been the day they were meeting with their “attorney group” when what Mark said happened. Why were they meeting with their attorney group on the day the news broke. They only learned they had exited from the March 25th 1997 Fedx packet or did they arrange to talk to attorneys after the group called them on March 21st to say they had made plans to “take the leap”? Does that mean they were meeting with attorneys to see if they would be liable in some way if the group really had exited as it indicated in their March 25th packet they did? Isn’t that a bit risky. How did Mark and Sarah know the Group wouldn’t have changed their mind and put off their exit for days or weeks, months or years yet they were telling attorneys “it was going to happen at any time”. Doesn’t that show specific foreknowledge. Wasn’t that information meant to be between DO and Crew and Mark and Sarah. But telling an attorney group would have meant they would tell so many people that could have easily led to the police getting involved to try to stop them which would have been a major security breach of the Classes privacy to do.

I knew the details of how the Class was planning to exit. Of course since I left in 1994, DO could have changed the plan from what he told us but as it turned out it was almost exactly the same plan DO talked to all the class about in September of 1994 in a warehouse meeting in San Clemente, CA. I didn’t know when and didn’t know if they would follow through because we talked about many things we didn’t do. But Mark and Sarah weren’t privy to that information because they weren’t in the Class then nor at any time until they exited, so there was just so much they would be told about.

Cathy and I are witness to Mark and Sarah saying they got their last Fed X packet from the Group on March 25, 1997, the same date Rkkody, Oscody and Rio and I suppose others received theirs. (Not sure when exactly Jhnody received his in Venezuela but it was very close to that day).

Rkkody says in his manuscript that he got his on March 25th 1997 and same day he called Mark and Oscody was with him and had received a packet they “hadn’t looked over closely” yet but then a while later that day Rkkody spoke to Mrc/Srf after they had examined their content of their packets because they talked about the letter the Class included in Mrc/Srf’s packet they gave them instructions to send to SAM, the owner of the Rancho Sante Fe house. It was Mrc/Srf’s first concern that on that letter were their names and Rkkody’s name. Rkkody said they were all afraid to have authorities having their names. So Rkkody said to Mark/Sarah to do what they felt was right and he understood that they got rid of all three of their names on the letter and then sent it to SAM after the bodies were found (which was March 26th 1997).

Cathy and I asked Mark and Sarah face to face at their lawyers office in Phoenix in November of 2021 whether they knew the Group planned to exit their vehicles and they told us they didn’t have any foreknowledge but what Mark is saying here is that they did have foreknowledge on the 21st unless Niklas got that wrong but if so then why didn’t Mark correct him in his reply to that question/comment?

Niklas:

Given Mrcody and Srfody’s security-mindedness, it must have been a somewhat disconcerting realization that the street address of their livelihood was listed on the Heaven’s Gate website – upon which the entire world’s attention now rested. I read many contemporary news stories stating that reporters had reached out to the owners for a comment about their affiliation with TELAH Services.

30. Mark:

– We knew this would be difficult to handle. When the full pressure of the global press and legal entities is applied, you must be quick on your feet. We stayed away from direct questions and told the reporters that TELAH were box-holders at our business. We were careful with what we did and where we went. Some of our employees wondered what was going on, but we instructed them to remain quiet and only take messages. It quieted down in a few days and passed entirely within a reasonable amount of time.

30. Sawyer:

So it seems their fears at first were unfounded. They could have trusted DO’s using their address for the Heavensgate.com website. They could have trusted that when DO included their names on the letter DO asked them to send to SAM, the owner of the Rancho Sante Fe house. They could have trusted that if they acted quickly they could have communicated with others who received Fed X packets and letters to all go to the Airport in San Diego, retrieve the cars left there for them as described in one of the Letters to them from the Group in their packet, and retrieve the Truck from storage the Group thought Rkkody could retrieve and then could have all gone to the two main storage rooms and unloaded their contents into the Yellow truck and then they never would have had a problem with San Diego county confiscating the storage contents. So quick on their feet as Mark brags was slow and really complicated getting the items of value from storage out of San Diego’s hands.

According to Rkkody they were hiding out and wouldn’t even talk to Rkkody on the phone out of fear they were being tapped or something. Rkkody said he was trying to check with them about things but they made it hard to do. Rkkody said they and Oscody had some kind of code to use to get in touch. I don’t think any of that was wrong to do but they way they say so little about what actually happened and how fearful they were is another of the many subjects they skirt around and seek to hide from the public view. It’s a big problem when someone thinks so much of themselves that they can’t stand to recognize and admit their mistakes that we all make. But then their mistakes are being used to date to sue me for doing what DO wanted all of us to do – participate in the Dissemination Project.

Niklas:

Several of the letters to former students stated, ‘We want you to feel free to exercise any available options with whatever timing feels right for your own next step’. As did Srfody and Mrcody’s – but with the added phrase ‘No doors are closed to you’. I’m unsure whether this was an invitation or a humorous reference to all the keys included.

31. Mark:

– We knew this had two meanings – from departing after them to taking the steps necessary to protect and carry out our tasks. We’d been left with the lion’s share of their work and legacy. Some former Classmates had specific assignments which could be completed in days, whereas we have tasks for the remainder of our lives.

31. Sawyer:

The entire paragraph from DO and Crews Letter signed by The Class reads:

“Also we want to make it clear that we’re certainly not asking you to do these tasks if, after receiving this information, circumstances make it too difficult or other options seem more appropriate for you. We want you to feel free to exercise any available options with whatever timing feels right for your own next step. No doors are closed to you.”

Having read the other two pages of this Letter, The Class certainly expressed their desires, what they hoped Mark and Sarah would do, from working together with some of the following: OSC, RKK, JHN, FLX/ABL and NEO (Rio) and even potentially Soeren could be “included in events that transpire to whatever degree feels right. It was clear that those on the list just listed would also be potentially included “would be most helpful to you” then suggesting RKK and OSC as “would likely be a big help” but “including others would be OK as well, whatever your strategy permits.”

They said, “We put into storage items that we would prefer the authorities not have access to.” They said they could “do with those items whatever feels right to you.”

They said “We also have a 20 foot yellow truck in a separate storage unit, and we did think that RKK would be a good choice to retrieve it – it’s big enough to haul all of what’s in storage, we believe.”

They said in the Letter from The Class re: the disposition of the cars and vans and a truck:

“The large yellow moving truck can be found at our storage place (the accessing and disposing of storage items are covered in another note to you). Again, perhaps you could get some help from RKK or OSC in handling the truck and storage.”

They said they enclosed in the packet another document that “further covers the disposition of our cars and this truck.”

Then they said, “It is our desire that any items of value that are retrievable by you be divided among those who feel inclined to disseminate our information.”

And added, “Any of the funds you retrieve can be used towards that end and for the living expenses of those involving themselves with this project.”

It seems they were referring to the funds that were in at least one car that they wanted RKK to retrieve but I guess that could include any funds that came from some of the items of value in Storage that included Away Team patches, video tapes, audio tapes, etc.

Then they said after they described working with the Romanian ISP with the website off shore in case authorities wouldn’t allow the Heaven’s Gate site to remain up and they talked about some BBC contacts working out of the CBC office in New York who had expressed to them interest in their story before they left, they went on to say:

“Of course, this is contingent upon whether or not you should choose to say anything to the media on our behalf. We would hope that the public would have an opportunity for more thorough knowledge of who we are and what we’re about.”

Then in the letter to MRC/SRF from The Classes Pursers they said, “You are about to inherit what’s left of our purser task, to do with as you choose.”

They state what they would choose writing:

“We are arranging to get some funds to all of you (RKK, OSC & MRC/SRF) from what we have on hand, but we know that there is no way we can pay you for whatever efforts you may or may not choose to contribute in collecting our loose ends and (my upper case) DISSEMINATING INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED HERE.”

Then in the same letter under the heading, “Funds Which May Come In After We Leave,” they write, “We don’t know if you’ll actually be able to get any of these funds, but if it is possible, we’d like these funds to BE AVAILABLE TO THOSE WHO STILL SUPPORT THE CLASS AND WANT TO HELP GET OUR INFORMATION OUT.” (my capitalization)

If they wanted funds to be available to those who still support the class and want to help get our information out, wouldn’t they want those same people to have that information they wanted to get out to the world? I am one of them. Cathy is one of them. Carlan is one of them. Jhnody who was on the list is one of them. There are other new believers who have that same desire. The Class, nor DO ever said anything that can be taken as a limitation of who could “get their information out”. It’s even reiterated in Jwnody’s document, “Away Team from Deep Space Surfaces Before Departure” that “getting the information out” was a task all returned Souls would receive and that included Souls that DO and the Class never got a chance to meet before they exited their vehicles.

“We are hoping that you will solicit help from Oscar (OSCODY), RKK, FLX/ABL, and others as you need it.”

Would “others” be limited to only the names mentioned? There is ample evidence that they were open to anyone helping with the “dissemination project”.

In other words these were the primary tasks they were given and they didn’t really do any of them and yet when I did these tasks they acted as if I didn’t have a task from the Next Level to do them and were even going against them. They clearly preferred they do these tasks but it was always their way for the 19 years I was in observance that they always gave us an out so it would always be our free will to exercise and that’s the part of the Letters they cite that they use to back up that they are doing the tasks DO gave to them and those options they have chosen actually go against what The Classes desires and wishes and hopes were.

Sure Mark and Sarah put up the website and supported it all these years but it went to their heads that only they could do that. If only they were to do that why did Rkkody and Oscody and Jhnody receive the code for the websites on diskettes as they stated in Letters (but didn’t reveal they had sent to Jhnody, so that may have come to them as a surprise when I included documentation that Jhnody had the website and masters of the Beyond Human Video series and Books in his Packages from DO and Crew. Perhaps that came by surprise when I presented to the court as part of my defense against Mark and Sarah’s lawsuit against me, that evidence that others were also given the same dissemination task.

Mark and Sarah also did publish the Book but in doing so changed the copyright DO and Crew had included for the Book eliminating the encouragement to copy parts of the book or in it’s entirety as long as didn’t add or take away from those parts and not do so for commercial purposes. They could have included both that common law copyright notification and the copyright to the TELAH Foundation they created after the Class left.

They also did a token sending out of video tapes and a tiny few audio tapes, except for doing the right thing and sending Jhnody some 80 audio cassettes with instructions to store them only. When he defied that order they freaked on him.

Even when they sent someone audio tapes 1 to 4 (probably at most which Cathy got) they stipulated that they were only for her personal use. DO never gave those kinds of limitations.

So my points here are to show that Mark and Sarah chose to do most everything their own way and that way ended up being in contradiction to the desires expressed over and over and over by DO and His Class and they seem to be blind to seeing this reality which is very sad.

And why is it that Mark includes this word “protect” as something “necessary” for him/them to do. Of course one would protect the “items of value” the Class wanted them to retrieve from Storage. Why wasn’t getting those “items of value” from Storage the first priority of tasks they were given which would automatically “protect” them from harm and keep them out of the governments hands. But instead they demanded Rkkody turn over to them the 200+ tapes he got from Storage while Oscody already had the remainder of what they got from Storage, over another 286 for a total of 486. Rkkody finally gave into them, knowing they were given the primary task to divide up those items of value but Rkkody was covering his bets, not knowing what Mark and Sarah would or would not do with the audio tapes, so he copied them and began to digitize and disseminate them as DO wished. I’m harping on this word because Mark and Sarah have harped on this word. In the Cease and Desist document they sprang on us at our in person meeting in November of 2021 at their lawyers office it talked about how they were guided to “protect” the information. They sent audio tapes to Jhnody for safe keeping in Venezuela. That’s all fine and well but what about protecting the information by putting it in thousands of hands who want it while also protecting it in other ways? One of the answers to that question I would propose was because if they felt their task was to protect it’s far less stressful than disseminating as there is no real interface needed to arrange ways to protect the information.

This is one of the points Mark and Sarah got very wrong. They weren’t left with the Groups “legacy” – They were given the task to disseminate that legacy of information to anyone that wanted to do the task of that dissemination. Mark and Sarah turned it into their own “kingdom” so that only they would be the disseminators and they alone would dictate who could receive what of that information left behind by TI and DO and Crew.

Interesting that Mark leaves out how he knew DO’s intention was that all their intellectual property be disseminated to those who would want it to learn about what the Class was all about. He and Sarah even showed evidence in a letter to Rkkody that they intended to disseminate that information at that time. But somehow when it came to the audio tapes, they did send some to Flxody/Ablody (Mark said, but don’t know how many) and sent 80 audio tape cassettes to Jhnody (Juan), aka Francisco. But they insisted on getting the audio tapes Rkkody retrieved from storage. Rkkody copied some 218 tapes and began to digitize them and then eventually did give the masters back to Mark and Sarah. That was a very smart move because all but that 218 tapes were never released to the public except some of them in very isolated circumstances and very cumbersome ways and they would stimulate that they were only to be for personal use when DO wanted them to be given to all those who were inclined to disseminate their information. Mark and Sarah did the very opposite of DO’s instructions.

Now their lives are being occupied with keeping TI and DO’s information away from people. Their fears are unfounded. Again, they could have trusted DO.

Mark and Sarah never have recognized that they could be wrong about the entire way they have been handling TI and DO’s information. That’s why they were instructed to leave the Group and yet they blame their leaving on Classmates somehow conning DO to send them away as if DO was weak and would ever allow Class members to influence him (much or temporarily) from what he knew TI would have him do.

Niklas:

The Heaven’s Gate website offers German translations of the two Recycling tapes from 1996. Coincidentally, Rkkody‘s letter from the Class includes a remark about a potential seeker from Germany – ‘Oscody is in contact with this individual and has offered housing for him at the Phoenix satellite.’

32. Mark:

– There was never any satellite in Phoenix other than what the Group set up with us in May 1996. The German’s name was Sören. He never made it to the United States; Oscody told us he’d offered to do some translations but lost interest after the incident.

32. Sawyer:

Perhaps Mark and Sarah didn’t know that DO and Crew, in Rkkody’s letter referred to Oscody’s apartment as the “Phoenix Satellite” where Soren from Germany could stay if he came here where he could also be given a car to use. Also Mark doesn’t know I guess that Soren did make it to the U.S. not too many years ago and met with Crlody (Carlan) and went back. He often used the name Nathaniel of late.

In one of the Letters to Mark and Sarah, Soren was mentioned as someone Oscody had offered to help with housing which would have made that location a Phoenix Satellite.

Niklas:

After arriving in Phoenix, Rkkody drove to Denver in the Lincoln Continental. On March 29, Oscody returned to San Diego to continue the storage room clearance. After collecting the Group’s Mazda MPV minivan from the airport, he found that an external party had placed a padlock on the door. An employee of the storage company had recognized Dstody – one of the departed – from a news report and then alerted law enforcement.

33. Mark:

– Rkkody updated the website as instructed but failed at everything else we asked him to do. He was unable to accomplish the task the Group had given him and then proceeded to go his own way. This refusal of his lost us the storage contents. It took us two years of fighting the San Diego County property system and cost us a lot of money in legal fees to get it all back.

33. Sawyer:

What a hell of a spin Mark is putting on what really happened that we have lots of evidence of. Rkkody was the hero in this though may have made some mistakes as he suggests in his manuscript but the mistakes Mark and Sarah made are huge in comparison.

For instances, when Mark and Sarah finally sat down to read the Letters they were sent, they could have told Rkkody when Rkkody called him the same day on the 25th what instructions they received and especially how DO’s Classmembers had mentioned using Rkkody. They could have immediately planned to all go to the airport to get the cars and to the storage near San Diego to get the contents of two storage rooms. But they said nothing so Rkkody didn’t know all of what he should have been told about until the morning of the 27th when Mark and Sarah turned over all their tasks DO hoped they would do, to Rkkody.

So when Rkkody and Oscody drove to San Diego area on March 26th 1997 to go to the house they could have gone having the instructions in hand with the Storage directions and codes and keys to cars and the truck to use to load up the contents of the two storage rooms as they Group had spelled out was their desire. But Mark and Sarah either didn’t read their letters or they just were frozen by influences from taking any actions hardly at all except to try to protect their own privacy that wasn’t even really in danger as they did nothing wrong.

For instance when Mark and Sarah met with Rkkody and Oscody in a parking lot in Phoenix on March 27, 1997 at about 7 AM according to Rkkody’s manuscript, they weren’t instructing Rkkody and Oscody to do anything.

This statement is a complete fabrication to remove all of their responsibility from what transpired and point it to Rkkody who isn’t here to defend himself and yet left us with a great detailed account of all he did upon getting his packets from the Group and seeking to coordinate with Mark and Sarah when they were hiding from doing anything. They caused Rkkody and Oscody to waste time and they are the prime reason they lost the contents of storage.

Mark and Sarah turned over letters they got from the Class that included the letter from pursers on how to handle PO Boxes and the cars and the truck to be used for storage. The Letters are very clear that Mark and Sarah were given the task to work with the others on the list and others wasn’t limited to those on the list to participate in the “dissemination”…”Project”. Sure DO indicated they could do the task as they saw fit and even not do it at all, but if they chose to do it then the task was outlined well by DO and Crew to retrieve all the items from storage and divide them among those who wanted to disseminate them and even do the same with any funds from the sale of some of the items to support that project.

Notice Mark and Sarah didn’t take any of the blame for what happened to where the lock was put on storage before all the items of value could be retrieved.

Mark and Sarah told us to our faces (Cathy and I) that they went to storage and the locks were already on them from the authorities. Mark admits Rkkody went to storage. If Mark and Sarah were giving Rkkody and Oscody the Storage retrieval task, why didn’t they agree on getting the truck first. Why didn’t they share with Rkkody all the instructions in the letters. I’m not saying Rkkody and Oscody bore no responsibility in how it all was handled and I’m not pretending I would have done a better job. They were under a lot of stress. Rkkody gives evidence of how paranoid Mark and Sarah and Oscody were that is very believable.

All the while Mark makes it sound like Rkkody botched it all up. This is very telling of exactly why Mark was sent out of the Class. Yes, the “I could be wrong” lesson step was not one he wanted to follow because he had come to trust his own mind over his Older Members Mind. From the time he and Sarah were instructed to leave the Class in 1987, they began to cease looking to DO’s Mind less and less according to DO in audio tapes from that period and instead looked to one another’s Mind. This isn’t from my Mind to say this. We have over 12 clips from audio tapes with DO talking about it even more directly than I am.

Plus we have in this interview a number of times Mark blames Classmates and DO for wronging sending him out of the Class as if he takes no responsibility for wanting to leave and not return. This article shows how braggadocios they have become. I can reveal a number of emails between he and I over years that shows how he thinks he’s the boss over everyone. That’s exactly what he was showing TI and DO and Class members even in 1982, the reason he was “muted” by TI and DO from running the show. The Next Level has no trail bosses (wagon masters). They operate in crews. There can be Primaries and Secondaries on tasks but others on the crew are also responsible to pull on how their Older Members would handle things and how to follow procedures. Without learning to follow procedures we are worthless to the Next Level Older Members as they will have to waste time correcting things we botch up because we don’t follow procedures. TI and DO talk about this extensively in audio tape 37 with Mark getting the brunt of the lesson. I suspect he almost always had a low opinion about Rkkody and yet DO said in some of the same audios where he talked about Mrcody/Srfody that Rkkody with his shortcomings was “in much better shape” than Mrc/Srf because he wanted to look to his Older Member’s Mind.

This is all further brought home by the fact that Mark and Sarah are suing me, and Cathy and Carlan (Crlody) for doing exactly what TI and DO have made it very, very clear by dozens of examples they wanted to see and expected to happen after they left – their audio tapes combed over by many people.

Could it be coincidence that Mark and Sarah are not spoken of highly by DO in a number of the audio tapes as the main reason they want us to stop playing them on my youtube.com live-stream? I asked Mark this very question and he denied it and then reprimanded me for even “wondering” about it as if it would be out of the question. Could it be that Influences have blinded him to this and other reasons they want to hide TI and DO’s information.

Niklas:

In early April 1997, Mars Media – the company hosting the Heaven’s Gate website – discovered that someone had hijacked the domain name and taken the site down.

34. Mark:

– Chris Milus of Mars Media always tried to help us and was as kind as he could be under the circumstances. Unfortunately, Rkkody had allowed someone to steal the URL and take the site offline. It had been down for days at that point, and this stretched into months. It was another case of Rkkody keeping the website away from the public through all of 1997, contrary to the instructions left by Do and the Class. It’s been alleged that the original website came back up in August 1997, but we’ve seen no indication of that.

34. Sawyer:

Mark says, “Unfortunately, Rkkody had allowed someone to steal the URL and take the site offline.”

In Rkkody’s manuscript, in Chapter 5 on page 17 he describes driving down to Phoenix from Flagstaff to meet with Mark and Sarah and Oscar (Oscody) after having met with another former student named Pypody, who by the way is still alive and I’ve been in touch with.

Rkkody writes, “During the drive down I got a call from Holly who was running the Internet site where Heaven’s Gate was hosted. Apparently, someone had re-directed the domain name to a non-existing address effectively confiscating our web site.”

So how can Mark blame Rkkody for allowing someone to “steal” the site? Even without Rkkody’s testimony through his book manuscript, what could he have done to cause the site to go down? He had no interest in the site going down. He didn’t build the site, the Class techs did. If I were a sleuth, to me Mark and Sarah did have interest in the site going down as they still had their address posted there and according to Rkkody’s manuscript still were stressing about it though most of the media had died down by this time. However, I don’t believe Mark and Sarah were behind the site going down either.

Why would Rkkody make this up. We have the letter from the Class to Rkkody that shows he was to be what amounts to be the primary on web site maintenance Rkkody reports that, “The group had about three different sites. Http:www.heavensgate.com, http:www.heavensgatetoo.com, and http:www.levelabovehuman.com and a site in Romania that was just being set up that we still do not have access to.”

Again, as we’ve now seen probably a dozen times, Mark exaggerates and makes statements of fact using inflammatory terms, like in this case, “steal” the site when there was nothing of the sort happening.

According to Rkkody’s manuscript, Holly and Chris said the site address was changed to a non working address so went dark and that there had been so much traffic that the server couldn’t handle it and they were installing another server to cover the load. Rkkody flew to Nashville and met with them personally over this.

After all it’s not like I haven’t seen this over and over and over. Like in the lawsuit Mark and Sarah claim I “stole” the audio tapes when they were gifted to me by Rkkody in 1997 and 1998 and then a bigger batch were gifted to me by Jhnody in 2021, which were gifted to Jhnody by Mark and Sarah over about a years time of sending him digitized versions. And the gifts from Rkkody were the digitized tapes he retrieved from Storage that DO and Crew wrote a letter to Mark and Sarah suggesting Rkkody and Oscody help with doing. So how in the world were they stolen by me. No one owned any of them. The Class left them as a gift to the world that Mark and Sarah were supposed to divide among those who were inclined to disseminate them to others. In a real sense they then stole them and used government to authenticate their theft by buying them off to get Consent Decrees. Mark and Sarah seem to care only about what the government says is right to do with the audios than what TI and DO and Crew intended.

As I’ve described before in this response to Mark’s interview but will repeat a number of times, the reason Rkkody had Mark and Sarah’s letters was because Mark and Sarah turned them over to Rkkody on March 27th morning before Rkkody and Oscody went to storage in San Diego. It’s just a sore point with me that Mark throws around that term. It seems like he’s trying to make Rkkody seem negligent and wants to make me look like a criminal because I accepted the gifts, which by the way I personally was in the Class to hear most of them and my voice and name can be heard in many of them to prove. It’s like trying to steal my family’s legacy.

Mark goes on to say here, “It was another case of Rkkody keeping the website away from the public through all of 1997, contrary to the instructions left by Do and the Class.”

This is pure misinformation. He may be putting this out on purpose, I don’t know but wouldn’t put it past him at this point given all the things he and his lawyers have done to Rkkody, Rkkody’s daughter, Crlody and now me and Cathy. Rkkody was front and center on all the tasks. When he called Chris and Holly on the morning of March 27th it was to change the address Mark and Sarah had called him about doing at about 3am that morning and that is when he found out that the site was down because of too much traffic to the site and that they were putting another server up to maintain the new traffic load.

Soon thereafter Rkkody put up one of the alternate sites to include Right to Know website that was purely packed with information that Rkkody had received directly from DO in addition to being sent the Book’s first edition and the website code and had retrieved the audio tapes from Storage and was duplicating the exit tapes to send to people. Rkkody was doing all anyone could imagine someone doing to take the bull by the horns of what DO and Class called the Dissemination Project while Mark and Sarah were cowering, afraid of the ramifications of people seeing their Postnet business address the Class had set up with them, with their agreement to put on the website (before they exited). They were the ones who were failing to provide TI and DO and Crews information to people, the opposite of what Rkkody was doing.

Then Mark says here: “It’s been alleged that the original website came back up in August 1997, but we’ve seen no indication of that.”

No indication of that, I guess means they weren’t checking or communicating with Rkkody much as according to Carlan (Crlody) who was working with Rkkody at that time, he recalls the heavensgate.com website coming back up around September of 1997, so Mark may be right in what he heard or didn’t actually remember. In either case that at the latest was September of 97 – 6 months after it went down and Mark admits that at some point he was managing Heavensgatetoo.com if I recall him saying, while Rkkody according to Carlan was managing Heavensgateto.com while heavensgate.com was down. So no one would have been missing out of seeing the Heaven’s gate website unless they stopped at not finding heavensgate.com up and running.

Niklas:

Mrcody’s letter mentions a Romanian internet service provider meant to function as a pre-paid online backup, should the main site be shut down or buckle under heavy traffic. The Class describes the ISP’s owner as an agreeable fellow – however, since he wasn’t quite aware of what manner of client he was dealing with, ‘We’re not sure what his response will be to this most recent event.’

35. Mark:

– He disappeared when the website crashed due to overuse, so we had to go to another server. We never heard from him or his organization So much for those payments.

35. Sawyer:

By the way, Rkkody received the bulk of the instructions related to the Romanian web site provider in two letters from DO and Crew by March 25, 1997.

Niklas:

To complicate matters further, TELAH Services – the business set up by the Group and transferred to Srfody and Mrcody – was still registered to Logan Lahson, known in the Class as Lggody. The state of Arizona would not allow for this to be changed; instead, the entity itself had to be renamed.

Sawyer:

I don’t know what documentation Mark and Sarah had that DO and Crew transferred Telah Services to them. If the really intended them to have it I would imagine they would have put it into motion before they left. I don’t know why Mark and Sarah had such a complication to moving their corporation to them. To date we have no documentation to support that the Group wanted that transfer to happen. Mark and Sarah have given me a whole lot of reasons to not trust they are acting on the up and up. Of course they never felt they had to prove anything to me. However now that they are suing me and Cathy and Carlan, what they have been saying and doing is under greater scrutiny

36. Mark:

– In May 1997, Srfody and I flew to Washington DC to speak with an IRS panel and get the appropriate changes to a 501(c)(3) organization done. It was an unusual board meeting of skeptical bureaucrats who later approved the new name: The Telah Foundation. Contrary to a rumor floated about this, no attorneys recommended these measures or were employed in the achievement thereof.

36. Sawyer:

I don’t believe much of anything Mark and Sarah say is true entirely as they have been operating using their own Minds verses TI and DO’s Minds for so long that they no longer seem to know the differences and don’t seem to remember certain things they did and why.

Like what were these IRS bureaucrats skeptical about, I wonder? Why did they have to fly to Washington DC to speak with an IRS panel? There are IRS people in every state. Why didn’t they just form a new non-profit corporation.

They said in #18 that “They turned the corporation over to us in May 1996; after that, we were asked to assist them with many things. We helped where we could, but safety for both parties was always in play.”

If The Class turned over the Telah Services corporation to Mark and Sarah why was it still registered to Logan Lahson (aka Lggody)?

DO and Crew did give them the task of dividing the contents of storage among those who wanted to disseminate their information. That didn’t require any legalities if they had gone to storage when they could have or told Rkkody and Oscody of the instructions before they went on March 26th.

I don’t know what they needed Telah Services for that the Classroom didn’t provide them with. In their letter from “Pursers” Mark and Sarah received on March 25, 1997 they wrote:

“We have only two bank accounts of possible interest to you – business accounts for Higher Source Contract Enterprises and TELAH Services.”

The same letter also said, “You can also use whatever is in the TELAH bank account, which we think is about $1430.”

So did The Class give them a way to access the TELAH bank account? Maybe whatever Mark and Sarah received in the so called, “transfer” of TELAH Services to Mark and Sarah would have been enough to access that bank account but then it seems they wanted to use Telah Services for more. My guess is that there were certain legal documents they wouldn’t have that they wanted to use to be able to prove they had the right to transfer copyrights the Group had in the name of TOA or Total Overcomers Anonymous or Total Overcomers Anonymous Monastery or Oliver Odinwood (who initially held the copyright for the paintings he painted that were listed as illustrations for The Meeting Screenplay and for his name also being on the copyright for the script for The Meeting itself without proof that they were TELAH Services. So perhaps that’s why they created sought a name change only to Telah Foundation and then proceeded to copyright 486 audios, Video tapes and The Book and certain pictures like the Away Team patch, the website Heaven’s Gate phrase and it’s use on patches, etc.

Cathy and I and Carlan in our defense and counter-suit against Mark and Sarah’s Telah Foundation and corporation they formed as “The Evolutionary Level Above Human, Inc.” they used to sue us, plan to demand their documentation in the upcoming Discovery part of the lawsuit (that Mark and Sarah had their lawyers tell the court they thought could be skipped).

Niklas:

Another rumor I came across is that Srfody had spoken to a fellow former student and been very upset, exclaiming, ‘How could they do this to us?’

37. Mark:

– No, Srfody stated nothing of the kind. She never implied that we were ‘wronged’ by the Group in any way. We’d been in training for ten months, between May 1996 to March 1997, to assume responsibility for tasks we were – and still are – honored to carry out. Those same former members have also alleged that we gave up on said tasks for a brief time; that is equally false. All the things our detractors indicate we’ve said or done could fill a book. They seem to take comfort in clinging tightly to their delusions. And once that pattern is set, they’d feel empty if any of it were to be explained to everyone’s satisfaction.

37. Sawyer:

I happen to probably be the source of said “rumor” of what Sarah (Srfody) said. It’s not something I made up. It came from Gnrody who was friends with Sarah. Gnrody and Rkkody had a relationship of some sort when Rkkody was outside the Classroom. Gnrody had a house in the Denver area. I don’t recall when they became room mates but I do know her from before I left the Class in 1994. I first met her in November of 1993 when DO had Jwnody and I set up and speak at a public meeting in Denver, in the Arapaho area. We stayed at Gnrody’s house up in Bloomfield, CO, where Rkkody had been living as well. That’s when Rkkody wanted to rejoin the Class again if he had the chance and when we all started the meetings in January of 1994, and on DO’s invitation he did rejoin us. He became one of the videographers of the group then.

Anyway, when Rkkody re-joined, Gnrody also joined us at DO’s invitation. It was a huge adjustment for anyone who had never been in the Class or even for someone who had once been in the Class but was out for years. We were a very tight knit crew by 1993. We had lots of procedures to follow and we loved the procedures but for a new comer to the Class, there was a great deal to come up to speed with to be able to become a working crew member. If someone wasn’t very flexible yet unable to adjust to the many procedures, they would become an interference. I don’t know why Gnrody didn’t stay very long. However, after I left I was in touch with her via email and on the phone a time or two. I became aware of the rift that had formed between Rkkody and Mark and Sarah. I have an email from Gnrody that calls out Mark for harassing her and Rkkody because Rkkody was doing what he felt to do with the audio tapes he retrieved from Storage. I was aware of this rift at the time but loosely as I wasn’t really engaged with the Class Info and what had occurred after their exit in any way until the early 2000’s but had contact with most long term former students.

I remember being on a telephone call with Gnrody after the Class left their human vehicles in 1997, when she out of the blue felt to tell me what Sarah had said to her that as best I can recall was, “how could they do this to us”, speaking about the Group’s exit and leaving the Postnet address they had agreed to monitor for the Group on the Heavens Gate website.

As we can see in this interview, Mark says many things that are phony, even outright deceit so his denial of what Gnrody said is unfortunately to be expected.

I’m not saying that if Sarah had said that, she is some terrible person. What makes for a terrible person is hiding things she did and appearing to be squeaky clean, which DO even can be heard addressing in audio tape 331.

Plus we have Rkkody’s manuscript that he had no reason to conjure up lies within. But it reveals how Mark and Sarah avoided like the plague doing any of the tasks their Letters from DO gave them, unless they could do things exactly their way, which they only arrived at after the main media had passed in 1997.

Someone who had absorbed Next Level behaviors and ways would be quick to admit their shortcomings. Rkkody demonstrated this big time in his manuscript. Sure humans will judge us but to us, we know that our only judge is DO and Ti and taking responsibility for our own less than Next Level behaviors and ways is part of being an active student of Next Level ways to embrace.

I trust Gnrody’s memory way more than Mark and Sarah’s. They put on the appearance of never having said or done anything wrong. Look at this interview where they blame DO for being influenced to send them out of the Class because of rumors from Classmates. Mark really demonstrates well that he hasn’t overcome his trust in his own mind over his Older Members. He has been caught in so many partial or total lies now he doesn’t seem to even know what is or isn’t actually true in many cases. One way it appears Mark shrewdly sows seeds of misinformation can be found in this statement, “She never implied that we were ‘wronged’ by the Group in any way.” Maybe she didn’t but he has. For instance at the meeting Cathy and I attended with Mark and Sarah and their lawyer, I asked them if they were in contact with Rio (Neody) and I think Mark said first, “No” and Sarah immediately chimed in with, “yes”. One of them was outright lying.

Niklas:

There are also claims that Mrcody believed himself in line to ‘make millions’ from their proprietorship of The Telah Foundation.

38. Mark:

– No, what I actually said was that a foolish lawyer had suggested that we could make a million – but we thought it would do nothing but cost us time and money. Funny how our detractors keep omitting the latter part. Their bitterness and hatred are not of the Next Level and never will be. We still nurture the hope that they will one day find it in their hearts to sincerely embrace kindness and understanding instead of this endless broken record of spiteful misconceptions. We believe it is tearing them apart and distancing them from the Next Level.

38. Sawyer:

In Rkkody’s manuscript he addresses the origin of this statement about the “million,” as he remembers it, as a first hand witness. In this quote TOM, (a pseudonym for the name of the lawyer Mark was working with that Rkkody said he first started a relationship with, to try to retrieve the contents of Storage that San Diego County had confiscated from Storage (MRC is short for Mrcody today known as Mark)):

“When we met at the Mexican restaurant only a week earlier MRC was saying that TOM wanted to form some kind of entity to be able to get all the rights to Heaven’s Gate stuff including copyrights on all the web pages and their logo’s etc. He said there can be 10’s of millions at stake.”

Even if Rkkody heard it differently than Mark, they both agree that the word “million” was used.

Sad how Mark projects his shortcomings on others as if there are not dozens of direct examples of their very poor behavior.

I didn’t know the last part until this interview because Mark is always so closed lip about most everything. I don’t care who is telling the truth. I just want to hear it. I guess Mark considers me one of his so called “detractors” yet he is the one who has been threatening me and now suing me for purely egotistical reasons that stifle TI and DO’s information getting to the public and has been saying things that are at times the opposite of what TI and DO clearly said. Since they do support the HeavensGate.com website, I feel it’s my task to be a check for them whether they want or value it or not because I don’t want someone to hear something from them and think that was from TI and DO’s Mind when they say so much that hardly is.

I don’t have bitterness or hatred feelings towards them. I’m glad they were awake enough that they got some tasks from DO and Crew before they left. I was very asleep in some ways during that time that they fault me for. Of course bitterness and hatred is not of the Next Level but their actions really speak for themselves in how they have showed those very same traits towards me as even shown in this interview that I have tried to address. Kindness and understanding has it’s value of course but when it comes to fulfilling the tasks DO gave all believers, new and old to share Their information with others, that is the kindest and most understanding thing we can do for another. And if there are misconceptions show us the evidence of such instead of being so darn general and hiding what they say they have to prove they were the only ones given the task to disseminate TI and DO’s information. I don’t care if they think they are the only ones to do that task. I know that I must share TI and DO’s information with anyone that shows some sign of wanting it. Rkkody, Crlody (Carlan) and Jhnody and others feel exactly the same way. Cathy who is a new believer feels exactly the same way. We can’t help but want to share the information but they don’t want us to. Doing all this so called infighting is something I dislike doing. I don’t want to talk about Mark and Sarah again but they are forcing it public by their direct actions trying to stop Cathy and I and Crlody (Carlan) and Jhnody and other new believers from that sharing. Sure we can talk about TI and DO from our knowledge of what’s posted in their book and website but why does it have to stop there and isn’t it better to have their exact words that even provide a more in depth understanding of what TI and DO were all about. They even stated that desire in one of the Letters to Mark and Sarah (MRC/SRF) and to Rkkody as well.

Mark’s opinion about who is distancing themselves from the Next Level is meaningless to me. He and Sarah at many times act like they can speak for TI and DO and these “emperors” have no clothes on in that regard.

Without drudging up the past, they are literally suing me for sharing TI and DO’s information with people freely, while they keep the tapes under lock and key almost entirely. Why don’t they want TI and DO who they say they honor, to have their voices heard? They insist that only they can share it and out of the other sides of their mouths suppress Their voices for 25 years. They persecuted Rkkody, then Crlody (Carlan) and then me for defying their false authority over TI and DO’s legacy. And now they even are going after new believer, Cathy with even totally easy to prove false accusations. Regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit they are, because of their relentless over lording requiring the whole truth to come out so it will probably become the source of a very detailed documentary.

The Mark and Sarah dynasty is falling again and this interview seems to be a meager attempt to preserve it’s deceitful ways they have no justification from TI and DO for.

People who hear this story to include their lawsuit they have filed, often think it is about money but I don’t think it is. It’s about their own sense of having received tasks from DO, understandably, but that they have mutated into additional tasks they had the option to exercise but would have had far less problems and wouldn’t have had to become overlords of the information deciding who can or can not have access to it and when and how much if at all. It seems evident from things they have said and/or written and/or had written on their behalf by lawyers that they want to be seen as the only Representatives of TI and DO and Crews Information they left behind but don’t want to be under fire for supporting it because of fearing some people might kill themselves because of the information. I can understand having to deal with that concern as I too have dealt with that concern but realized there were ways to legitimately talk about that while explaining and showing people how DO and Crew actually had a Position Against the S word of losing one’s vehicles life by their own hand. What is ironic about this position is that though they have expressed fear that innocent lives could be harmed by the information, they still have performed the task of providing the Heavensgate.com website that has lots of direct talk about the action they were about to take and why, though also includes talk of how exiting by one’s own hand for humans is useless because we humans all need our human vehicles to learn our many lessons through. The human kingdom was designed as the location where Spirits and Souls could grow by even outgrowing the human condition. That is a huge task and every human can benefit by applying the many lesson steps the Class provided their Students, but that to appeal to the Next Level means to do so to be of service to the most current Representatives from the Next Level who used vehicles they called TI and DO.

Here is part of the evidence of Mark and Sarah’s fears and how they felt the information should remain “confidential”:

This is a segment of the verbiage Mark and Sarah and/or Lawyers included in the Legal Agreement between The TELAH Foundation and Stephen *** A.K.A. Sawyer and Cathy *** and to provide a settlement of the Cease and Desist of 11/17/2021. Cathy and I received this as part of a long document that included many very dictatorial conditions upon which if we complied we could share some of the information with some people in some ways and would be punished if we broke the agreement. We didn’t even come close to signing it but what came from receiving it that Cathy was the broker of getting them to draft was seeing how far astray they have fallen from what TI and DO and Crews intentions were for what they called the “Dissemination Project”. Here is that one segment:

“8. CONFIDENTIAL NATURE OF MATERIAL. Telah and King are the protectors and guardians of the Material to prevent it from being misinterpreted or misused causing harm to innocent parties. Because of the sensitive nature of Material Telah and King have exercised to the best of their abilities all efforts to keep the material restricted and confidential. Recipients agree to continue keeping the Material confidential and to exercise their best efforts to prevent access to parts of said Material not agreed nor authorized by Telah and King and to exercise best efforts to prevent potentially damaging Material to be released to the public.”

Niklas:

In early May 1997, a former member called Jstody traveled to Mexico to procure phenobarbital for himself and Rkkody. Before springing into action, they recorded exit statements of their own and then sent them by post to family members and media outlets. If I’ve understood Jstody’s video correctly, he was not expecting an immediate reunion with the Away Team – which included Slvody, his wife from before the Class – but rather to be set up for incarnation into a future Classroom where he’d get another chance to graduate.

39. Mark:

– To exit was his choice; we knew nothing of what they were doing. But he’s not too far off with his exit statement – it’s called being ‘put on ice’. That is an option.

Niklas:

That reminds me of Srrody’s exit video, in which he directly addresses former Classmates. He urges them to rely on personal experience rather than media portrayals in how they should relate to the graduation event.

39. Sawyer:

I think what Mark means by saying, “That is an option” is that DO has said some may be “saved” – “put on ice”. DO said “ice” wasn’t meant to be literal. DO was speaking of the Soul. But this is one of many examples of in my opinion Mark not saying enough on the subject. It’s not exactly our option to take. It’s the Next Level’s judgment of what to do with our Soul when we leave these vehicles regardless of how and when and why we leave these vehicles.

According to Rkkody he spoke somewhat openly around Mark and Sarah and Oscody and Pypody and perhaps Rio (Neody) about his wanting to exit as the Group did. He even said about the subject, with specific reference to Sarah (Srf) that she seemed “very nervous” with the entire idea.

Here is what Rkkody says in his manuscript written about that time in March/April 1997:

“I felt like it is only a matter of time before I will be leaving my vehicle and trying to catch up with the other, yet I could tell that none of the ex-classmates I had been working with was thinking like that at all. It was a subject that made SRF very nervous and when I mentioned it to PYP his body language spoke loud and clear. In fact, there was only one person I ran into who was actually preparing for the time he could exit his vehicle. That was JSTODY. We both felt at the time that there was still things the Next Level might be able to take advantage of while we were still here and we did not want to leave without being sure that it was appropriate.”

Mark speaks of “them” which I’m pretty sure has to be Rkk and Jst and that “we” must refer to he and Sarah. Again, I know I could be wrong about this, but I don’t believe Mark, saying about them: “… we knew nothing of what they were doing”. It seems Rkkody thought they did know what Rkkody was thinking about self exiting. I don’t know if Mark was being literal by saying “we knew nothing of what they were DOING so to get out of admitting knowing what he/they were thinking.

Plus did he not watch the 60 Minutes broadcast of Sunday, March 30th, Easter Sunday that Jstody, his daughter Kelly and I did together with Leslie Stahl? In the segments, I recall Jstody saying he felt like he wanted to leave, how he missed the bus. From Rkkody’s manuscript days after Jstody and I were on that broadcast he was talking about exiting with Rkkody and even planning how and when.

re: what Mark says about Srrody, there is no evidence I can see that he was addressing “former classmates” at all. Here is his statement from the exit tape he and others made:

SRRODY: “But maybe on a more personal note, there’s a number of you out there that have probably been in contact with me personally, and a number of the classmates that you’ll be seeing on this tape. And, remember how you felt when we were there? Remember what it was like to work with us, and to be with us and you’d probably be better off trusting that rather than whatever information you run across on the TV. I’m sure there’s going to be some stuff to come out about this that can’t get the perspective that you had, so trust your own feeling rather than what you hear from someone else. That would be my primary advice to you.”

Srr said, “…have probably been in contact with me personally, and a number of the classmates that you’ll be seeing on this tape”

Former Classmates haven’t “probably been in contact with [him] personally, they definitely had contact with him, as I did over years. Plus do former classmates have to be reminded what “it was like to work with [them] and trusting that rather than whatever information [they’d] run across on the TV? I know what I experienced in the Classroom and with whom, though yes I can forget certain things but not things like what I felt about certain classmates. I for one know well that the media knows next to nothing about what really happened there. I’m not alone in that. I believe Srrody was talking to some individuals who he and other classmates had been working with at their company Higher Source and in other Out of Craft tasks (jobs in the world) and perhaps in other capacities.

I’m providing the text so that what Mark says, for those who read his article don’t assume he is expressing things that were actually said. It seems his memory on many things has been skewed. I know this can and does happen to all of us, so in this case it’s good for me to be a check on this, the same things I would like from others if I quote TI and DO and Crew and get it wrong as it appears has happened in this case with him re: what Srrody said.

Also, re: “being ‘put on ice’,” yes DO said this but he also said that wasn’t literal ice. I think adding these words is important so people don’t misunderstand His use of terms/phrases. TI and DO talked about this kind of thing in an audio tape re: leaving written things behind for humans to read, to clarify our terminology.

To me it’s sloppy to not say more and to me Mark and Sarah have done this many times over the years. I’m accused of saying too much and I’m sure at times I do, but DO and Class members were on the wordy side when it came to speaking to the public so why not err in giving them more details and examples rather than less.

But also there are no guarantees and being put on ice, or “saved” from the recycling, leaving the planet with DO, in his keeping and even so if one goes against DO’s wishes they will still be inclined to be against his wishes after they exit the current vehicle. With some overcoming of human behaviors and ways, when what we do effects only us it’s not as serious as causing more difficultly for others. I think this applies a lot more when we lead people astray with mis or disinformation and literally go against DO. Then we may be putting huge distance between us and DO, so much so that we could lose recognizing him as our Older Member. Mark and Sarah appear to be treading on that kind of thin ice. Mark shows it in his responses in this article by blaming classmates passing on rumors to DO that somehow resulted in DO sending him and Sarah out of the Class because of. For Mark to say this shows lack of looking to DO as his Older Member, treating him the way a human might treat an employer as fallible. It’s not that DO can’t make mistakes but DO was not a human mind in a human vehicle. He is a Older Member Next Level Above Human Mind using a human vehicle he made obedient to his Next Level Mind. Thus he treated everything he thought, said and did very, very carefully and was constantly checking with his connection to TI, his Older Member on how to think, speak and act, not trusting he could get it right. So Mark’s being sent out of the Class was TI sending Mark out of the Class, as well as DO doing so. If Mark sees this he’s not expressing it and perhaps he should when/if he becomes aware of this as he may not be aware that his words spell this thinking out.

40. Mark:

– The option was given to all former students within a short window of time; only a few took advantage of it. The two of us had our tasks to do and feel confident we’ll be taken care of. But we don’t know exactly what the future holds. Since the next opportunity may be a long way off, it is possible that we will also be put on ice. Most likely, many Classmates are in the same position.

40. Sawyer:

If Mark and Sarah felt the call to exit the way they did, then they could have performed the short term tasks and passed on the tasks that could exist for a long time, to someone else. I’m not trying to say DO thought they were ready to leave as for some dropouts they could have needed the lessons they would get by staying in their human vehicles.

If they had felt to leave like occurred to Rkkody and Jstody and later Oscody, they could have stayed around to perform the essential tasks. They could have gone to Storage and retrieved it’s contents and the cars that were parked at the San Diego airport and regarding the “items of value…” in storage, namely the 1061 (according to Mark) audio meeting tapes, “that are retrievable by you be divided among those who feel inclined to disseminate our information” which is the wording in the letter to Mark and Sarah from DO and Crew.

Rkkody was a great example of performing tasks he was given and then leaving, which it seems to me he failed at his first attempt because DO and Crew wanted him to do more for them by staying longer and then they let him leave.

In Rkkody’s manuscript he talks about how he and Oscody felt to exit but didn’t want to exit too soon, thinking about whether DO might have them do certain tasks before they left. DO in his letter to Rkkody also extended the same option to him as he did to MRC/SRF and JHN, to choose from all the options.

For Rkkody the task he was given by DO involved helping Mark and Sarah with sending the letter to SAM (since it had Rkkody’s name on it, with Mark and Sarah’s), posting certain documents on the web sites, helping Mark and Sarah, if asked to retrieve the contents of Storage, participate in the “Dissemination Project” they wanted all to do, even people not named in the letters. (See Jwnody’s document, Away Team from Deep Space Surfaces Before Departure).

Oscody was given at least one task to register the book with the Library of Congress. (I don’t know how much he participated in that before Mark and Sarah took over that task but he laid down his human vehicle right around the year 2000 if I recall.

I didn’t get a Letter because I think, on the two or more occasions where DO was seeking to learn about where my head was at, I didn’t seek service but wanted to do what I was doing with raising my daughter (soon to born in July of 1997).

However, despite how Mark portrays me as being engulfed in humanness, I mustered the strength and conviction to put myself in the spot light of the media with my face to Stand Up for TI and DO. Some may think I was wanting that attention but I was actually quite afraid at first because I didn’t want reporters at my doorstep in Carmel, NY where I lived at the time. But I felt I needed to tell what I knew since I knew I knew a great deal from 19 years with TI and DO. I always had completely positive things to say about TI and DO. I called Time and Newsweek magazines with my story from a phone booth and met them at a restaurant individually to give them each an interview. Then Jstody called me and invited me to go on 60 Minutes with him which I knew I had to accept and did a bunch of media with him in the NYC area before and after Easter Sunday of 1997. I showed my face all along for years because I wanted people to know who was talking. Sometimes that wasn’t a positive out among the public but by in large it wasn’t more of a negative than I could handle.

I didn’t feel to exit and had no specific tasks nor a letter from DO and Crew. I was in touch with Rkkody, Mrcody and Srfody and many other former Classmates. Mark/Sarah sent me a case or two of the Heaven’s Gate Books they brought to print/publication which was also part of their task to do with maintaining the website.

However, there is no evidence at all that DO wanted them to convert the few tasks into mega tasks, expanding their instructions to include preserving the audios with water marks for some crazy reason. (I have no problem with their doing that and would share the tapes they make if that would make them happy but that won’t make them happy.)

Had Mark and Sarah acted quickly they would have never needed to engage with lawyers to get the materials back from San Diego County. DO expressed that he didn’t even want them to try to get the things that were in the mansion, yet they did, thinking (as I saw reported) that to auction them off would be dishonoring the memory of the Classmates. I believe the court document or a reported quoted Mark said was something like he wished to preserve their memory “with dignity” and selling their personal affects threatened that he/they thought. Perhaps that was misquoting Mark but it sounds like something Mark would say.

What Mark appears to be missing here is that the “next opportunity” isn’t far off, it’s now, not just for him but for everyone. When he tells people there is “nothing to do” but study the information to be ready for DO’s return in some thousands of years when they will reincarnate then, he is misleading people to treat the current opportunity lightly. It seems he’s so afraid that someone might kill themselves or something, though there is no evidence of anyone doing that because of Heaven’s Gate for over 20+ years and no doubt we would have heard about it.

After all there is a reason DO and Crew used the headline to a document posted on their website up front entitled, “Our Position Against Suicide”. They were against human suicide and what I might call Soul suicide. They knew we each needed our human vehicles to learn the lessons we needed to learn that could only be learned while in a human vehicle. DO even said that some who laid down their vehicles lives with him would need to return to a human condition to finish their overcoming of humanness. Who knows when that would occur. However, there was still a great value to being willing to exit in any way the Next Level through their Older Members whom we as any student recognizes to be DO and Ti.

DO never closed the “Gate” but he was very clear that there were Three Types of people who would survive the recycling, speaking of Souls in vehicles.

1) those who were with him graduating to their next best station and being rewarded with significant Next Level tasks.

2) People who recognized DO as their Older Member but had weaknesses

3) Those who might not even have heard about TI and DO but were separating from the world in their own ways.

We need our human vehicles to learn our lessons to grow closer to Next Level graduation to whatever is our next best step by the Next Level’s determination of our efforts.

Niklas:

On May 6, 1997, Jstody and Rkkody donned the Away Team uniforms, ingested large quantities of phenobarbital, and pulled plastic bags over their heads. Meanwhile, CNN and CBS News had received the farewell tapes and notified authorities. Investigators contacted Rkkody’s daughter, who had just opened an envelope containing a tape of her own. She told police that her father was likely somewhere in San Diego, close to the Group’s compound. After checking motels in the vicinity, law enforcement discovered that the two men had booked room 222 of the Holiday Inn Express in Encinitas, a community adjacent to Rancho Santa Fe. When the first responders arrived, Jstody had already died. Rkkody was in critical condition; he had instinctively torn off the plastic bag before suffocating. Unlike the Class, he drank no vodka to boost the medication, so the dosage proved insufficient to kill him. Rkkody woke up chained to a hospital bed. A few months later, in February 1998, he drove out into the Arizona desert. This time he succeeded.

41. Mark:

– We finally found out that Rkkody had gotten the domain back and given it to his daughter before he died. It was being held in Mexico. We paid a lawyer to take them to court and after a fight, we got it back. The daughter in question has still not complied with the other terms of that settlement, and she should. The website went back up immediately in early 1998. Until then, we’d been using the Group’s other domains, such as heavensgatetoo.com.

41. Sawyer:

I don’t know when Rkkody got back the website from it’s being hacked. Crlody who worked with Rkkody and was with Rkkody then said he thought it was September of 1997 when they got the Heavensgate.com website back up.

What I do know is that DO and Crew prepared well for this event of their exit to include sending the website to Rkkody, and Jhnody, Mark and Sarah and as I understand it to Oscody and Chris and Holly as site hosts and to a Romanian ISP who I don’t know ever put it up. Rkkody was given the lead task in making changes to the website and also received instructions directly from DO on some documents to post on it in addition to his Right to Know website DO had him set up a PO Box for where DO sent Rkkody a Fed X with paperwork for the Truck.

By the time Rkkody left, he had been so harassed by Mark and Sarah that he was like I am now, suspicious of everything Mark and Sarah say and do, with a lot of evidence that shows such suspicions are justified. I have a letter from Rkkody’s daughter from 1997 that tells of how Mark and Sarah were threatening her with the loss of her house if she didn’t give the website back to them. That reminds me of how Mark threatened me and those who are friends on my Facebook page sawyer.heavensgate with $100’s of thousands of dollars of fines for using or transcribing or copying or distributing the audio tapes I had just received from Jhnody who received them from Mark and Sarah.

Niklas:

The Heaven’s Gate anthology, How and When “Heaven’s Gate” May Be Entered, was treated to a posthumous release by Wild Flower Press on March 1, 1998. My impression is that this was not a hugely lucrative venture.

42. Mark:

– We had to pay cash to get the final version printed; it cost us a lot of money. The publisher did his job but became disillusioned when no one wanted to buy the book. Ultimately, before he threw them all away, we got him to ship the remaining copies to us. We’ve been selling them one by one – at the mere cost of our production expenses – over the past two decades.

42. Sawyer:

Mark fails to say that he and Sarah received at least $10,000.00 directly from the Group upon their exit and/or may have retrieved more from unpaid accounts receivable they were given to be the recipients of, which was all to help them and others be able to perform the Dissemination Project. Instead they blew it on lawyers, though I don’t take away from them that they have paid for the heavensgate.com website to be up and running all these years. However when they clearly weren’t doing much at all of the dissemination project I offered to take over the website because others who believed in TI and DO AND were doing the largest portion of the Dissemination Project. Rkkody even bridged the gap of the tasks Mark and Sarah were hoped to perform by doing things himself. Rkkody also received $10,000.00 and so did Oscody as I understand it from Crlody who worked directly with Rkkody in 1997.

If Mark and Sarah had read their Letters from DO and Crew on March 25 when they received them and then compared notes with what it said in the Letters to Rkkody and others they would have stopped Rkkody and Oscody from going to the mansion so fast on March 26th without taking with them those instructions that included the means of retrieving the cars from the airport and the truck from one storage location and the contents of two storage lockers where the tapes were.

Niklas:

After first suing the County of San Diego Property Group in April 1997, Mrcody and Srfody made it into court by the end of 1998.

43. Mark:

– It took the designated Special Master two years to realize he wasn’t going to shake us. Finally, after about $325,000 in total costs, we got a settlement of all the Group’s intellectual property. Not only did we receive the videotapes and the balance of audio recordings, writings, and patches, but we got all the important items from the storage locker and the house. That’s how we acquired items even Do never expected us to get. Our settlement with San Diego County included all the Group’s financial records, logs, and items from the house, as well as Do’s bed and nightstands along with all of his books. We purchased the camera they filmed everything on, and all the tapes associated with it. We still use that camera. Through the auction, the public got the cars, clothes, kitchen items, and laundry goods. They got the bunk beds because we did not want them. Anyone claiming to have original patches, purple shrouds, or other items of that exit is mistaken. Remember, San Diego County incinerated the mattresses, bedding, shrouds, shoes, clothing, and anything else that touched their bodies. The county even provided us with the police case files – perhaps by mistake? – so we got their correspondence with the families and the real stories of what they thought of us.

43. Sawyer:

If Mark and Sarah had organized and spoke to Rkkody and Oscody and perhaps Neody (Rio) starting even on March 25th knowing DO’s hopes for their performing a variety of tasks, they would have retrieved all the cars, the truck and all the contents of two storage rooms. Because of their failure they did seem to have had to hire lawyers to sue San Diego County to then get at least the contents of the two Storage Rooms and/or all the other items.

DO said in the letters and in the letter Mark and Sarah received to send to SAM, the owner of the Rio Rancho Santa Fe house they lived in to not seek to have the items in the mansion yet Mark and Sarah sought to have it all. Mark even admits here that DO didn’t expect them to get certain items. DO also knew the house may be made into a shrine.

Yes, they got a settlement but that was only because Judge Lisa Guy Schall didn’t want to prolong the families getting some funds to resolve the estates of the Classmembers. She could have held out because her first ruling was that Mark and Sarah didn’t show her (the court) anything that showed the Group intended them to be more than “distributors” of the Intellectual property. In fact if they try to sell any of what they received they could be prosecuted in breaking that decision, which may have something to do with their trying to stop anyone else from selling certain items with the Groups artwork, etc.

Note they only got the “balance of audio recordings”. Rkkody retrieved with Oscody 486 audio tapes and split them with Oscody. Then Rkkody with help from Crlody at some point, copied them and digitized them and sent them to people including me. I’m being sued by Mark and Sarah for playing for free some audio tapes of TI and DO on my YouTube channel: 3spm and Cathy, my partner is also included in the lawsuit as well as Crlody even though they don’t have a consent decree that names each of the audio tapes that we were playing as among the 1061 audio tapes.

Rkkody while he was in the Classroom in 1994 had his own camera and DO had him travel with groups who were putting on meetings and film whatever he felt to. I believe Rkkody left that film with his daughter. It includes film of the Chicago meeting, an interview in a Portland Radio Station and from the Missoula, Montana meeting, all of which include me in. I believe he had other footage when he was assigned by DO to switch groups then. My understanding is that Neody (Rio) also had a camera then. I don’t know what footage Rio has. So I consider that part of the footage of the Class since some of the graduates were in the footage Rkkody and presumably Neody took.

As far as Mark having also bought from San Diego County in the Settlement, “all the tapes associated with it [the camera]” why is it that only the media get to see those tapes? Like the tape of the Classes visit to Gold Beach, OR. If that was among the “items of value” in the Storage Room that they said Mark and Sarah could divided among those inclined to disseminate their information, who has Mark and Sarah given them to. I’m not saying I want the originals but Crlody and I and now Cathy have been among some of the biggest disseminators of Their information, so give us copies of those tapes or post them somewhere so anyone could have them instead of hording them thinking that they are meant to be the only ones to see them unless they give them to someone else to see.

I’m glad Mark and Sarah received, “real stories of what they thought of us” but if by saying “real” he is implying that what I have said about them from my personal experience with them and from being in the Class when they were sent out of the Class isn’t real, then once again they are puffing themselves up which they don’t need to do as there is no embarrassment in revealing the facts of their leaving the Class rather than make stuff up as they have been doing or just ignoring those facts. Also by saying that they are sort of prodding me to compile all the statements from DO in the audio tapes to show what all DO said over the years in his attempted communication with them.

I have held back from doing that for years. I didn’t hardly talk about the circumstances of their being sent out of the Class for years until they gave an interview with Gizmodo and made up a totally fabricated story when asked. That was misinformation from my recollection as a first hand witness that I can prove being present during and can prove DO talked about quite a bit in audio tapes made after they left.

I don’t know if Mark knows if some clothing and/or shoes that was in travel bags or in dresser draws that wasn’t incinerated. It’s also possible they had a shroud for Neody (Rio) but didn’t need to use it since Rio left about 2 weeks before they exited.

Niklas:

Do you mean the county’s correspondence with the families?

44. Mark:

– Yes. The county employees were very frank about what they thought of us. We were considered ‘the enemy’, and they indicated that we’d stopped the auction of goods meant to pay for the family members’ funerals. As if we owed them that. When we put a stop to this in court, their anger level increased and they got the families even more riled up. Once we had received what was due to us, as mandated by a court of law, they blamed us for the low turnout at their auction and the meager amount of dollars it brought in. They had illegally secured items from the storage, and we had to get it all back. Which we did, to great cost out of our own pocket. We have not received any payments other than the production cost of the book. The total expenses of all court cases, production costs, legal issues, etc is now over $500,000. But we had to do what was right and necessary to make the Next Level information available to the world.

44. Sawyer:

Wow, yet another of many spins. In fact I have Judge Lisa Guy Schall’s two decisions In the first decision, she found no evidence that Mark and Sarah had any legal right to any of the Groups property. Mark and Sarah were fined about $4000.00 for filing a “frivolous lawsuit” that may not have included paying for San Diego’s lawyer expenses.

I remind that had they acted quickly, even as quickly as Rkkody and Oscody acted and/or had they informed Rkkody and Oscody of the Groups intention of their Letters instructing them and Rkkody and Oscody’s and others retrieving all the cars, the truck and all the contents of two storage rooms, then they would have had no legal expenses at all. However since they failed at acting quickly and caused delays of even Rkkody and Oscody even knowing about the Storage Rooms, when the locks got put on the two storage rooms by San Diego county around March 28th or so, then it became necessary to enlist lawyers to try to get at least the intellectual property found in one of the storage rooms.

Mark says certain items were “due to them,” and yes, DO did hope they would retrieve items in one or two storage rooms, which like I just said, they failed to do. But DO didn’t expect them to get anything from the Mansion. He and His crew said as much in at least two Letters so Mark and Sarah were again off track by including trying to get all the possessions the group had.

Mark is saying that what was “due to us, as mandated by a court of law”, as if that court was an authority over who got that material and as if that court gave them the authority to then lord over the materials and covet the 1061 audio tapes and prosecute those who denied they (Mark and Sarah) were following what DO and TI hoped they would do in the “dissemination project”.

They didn’t “put a stop to this in court,” they simply threatened to drag on the proceeding for more and more time and families of the deceased should have received some of those items to retrieve burial costs. The Class didn’t think Mark and Sarah should have anything but the things in the one or two storage rooms, to divide among those who were inclined to disseminate their information and/or to sell for funds to support the dissemination project and that Mark and Sarah have all but hidden away.

Mark says, speaking of the county that “they had illegally secured items from the storage and we had to get it all back” yet it was Mark and Sarah that didn’t lift a finger to get those items out of storage when they had the time to do so, which they had plenty of time, (days) to do before San Diego found the storage rooms and put their own locks on the doors. They seem to take no responsibility for what happened when it was all their responsibility

Then Mark says, they “had to do what was right and necessary to make the Next Level information available to the world.” Isn’t that ironic in a very sad kind of way that they did just the opposite. The website and the Heaven’s Gate Book posted on the website was already available to the world through Rkkody and anyone else who was sharing it. They ended up with one of those three near duplicate web sites. Others like Rkkody and Jhnody and Flxody/Ablody and perhaps others received the Beyond Human Video Tape series and since I was sent them by Mark and Sarah (before they disagreed with how I chose to disseminate the information) and that Carlan was providing to people that Rkkody had been sending out to me and others all along. Those tapes were uploaded to a YouTube channel called Heavensgatedatabase.

So the only items of value that was possible of being provided by them they didn’t provide, namely the 1061 audio meeting tapes. Carlan and myself were doing most of that provision to people and they were dead set against our doing so but as Mark told Cathy and I, they “let it slide” which they also knew that Carlan had been posting the audios Rkkody retrieved from storage on a site called 4shared.com for free download since 2009 or so. They knew about that site I’m sure but “let is slide” even though they had a copyright on those tapes we think but don’t know for sure since they never told anyone what they had copyrighted. (By the way their copyrights may have been obtained illegally which we will fight out in court).

So they provided next to nothing to the world, except for the web site and some video’s, some of the same info others were circulating. Yes, they did have to go to court to retrieve the items of value in storage but that was because of their failure, theirs and no one elses.

Plus, what Mark is also not telling, is that they threatened to appeal Judge Lisa Guy Schall decision to not award them with anything and what the judge then said in her next opinion was that for the benefit of all involved, keeping mind of many bereaved families she decided to seek a settlement. So the county got a number of the groups cars left for former students to use, sell or give away but to use any proceeds for the dissemination project. Rkkody wrote about how Mark and Sarah were listening to a lawyer re: giving the truck to a nursing home as a show to the judge that they were good people. However, DO did suggest giving it to a nursing home but Rkkody wanted to sell it and use the funds to disseminate the information, as DO spoke about as a type of priority. Instead the vehicles were used to in a sense bribe the Judge to give them some of the possessions of the Group. The Judge also got about $2000.00 from Mark and Sarah as well and they agreed not to sell any of the items.

So they got a Consent Decree to possess the contents of storage that contained the balance of audio tapes the group had since Rkkody had retrieved some 486 before then and other of the storage content. Then they used that decree to get another Consent Decree to win against Kathy (Rkkody’s daughter) to get the Heavensgate.com website because Rkkody left it to Kathy because he was choosing to exit his vehicle and he no longer trusted Mark and Sarah would do what DO and Crew wished for it. Mark and Sarah won because Kathy had no money to fight against lawyers and the previous consent decree and they were threatening Kathy with her losing her house if they didn’t get what they wanted.

I think DO would have intended Mark and Sarah to have the website, but don’t think they handled it as DO would have hoped, yet that was their test and DO is their judge. However, we can judge the things they say to people who come to the website who come to me (and told Cathy in emails) and tell me how little they helped them and told them things that were anti what DO taught.

For instance, Mark and/or Sarah told Cathy in at least one email that there was nothing to do but study the information to be ready to reincarnate some thousands of years from now when DO returns. This is anti DO’s teachings as he said the gate was still open. He wasn’t promoting suicide though for some that would have been an acceptable way to choose to exit. But for people who never personally knew, though there could be a rare exception, the method was to “get their information out” and be willing to Stand in Their Defense, their being from the Creators Kingdom that created the earth and all it’s inhabitants. This is spelled out in several ways in the document on the Heavensgate.com website in the article written by DO’s trusted servant Jwnody, named, “Away Team from Deep Space Surfaces Before Departure”. There are many other documents that talk about being against human suicide because we need these vehicles to learn lessons through.

Also in their lawsuit against Rkkody’s company Right to Know and his Daughter, they also won the Heavensgate.com website and copies of the Groups Book (they never collected) and sought to stop the selling of Heavens Gate, Ollody’s (Oliver Odinwood’s) artwork on mugs, t shirts, etc. which Rkkody only did so he could keep giving away tapes and Cd’s with the Heavens Gate Information on them, not a bad way to fund the effort.

That’s part of what enabled Mark and Sarah to think they were to be on control of all the information to an uncanny degree of limiting who could hear the audio tapes, even though DO didn’t give them that kind of task. DO only gave them the task of dividing the materials among those who wanted to disseminate their information, yet they distorted that into becoming their own little empire to where they are doing the opposite seeking to stop me and Cathy and Carlan and Jhnody from disseminating the information as if that wasn’t our task to do, the task of any believer to do. They told Cathy and I in person that they didn’t understand why what they were doing to disseminate the information was enough, when that is completely missing the point of the dissemination project as it was any new believers way of working for the Next Level rather than letting some hierarchy do that work. It’s the same way the Lower Forces sought to take over the Jesus records and did though the Catholic church and later other sects who even persecuted so called lay people who began sharing their interpretations with others. The clergy thought they were only qualified to teach/instruct and interpret things when they many times were distorting and diluting the meaning of Jesus teachings. I have many, many examples now of things they have said to interviewers that are doing the same kinds of things, diluting and distorting what TI and DO taught, coming up with their own interpretations and treating people as “swine”, they don’t feel are worthy of having and sharing the information, telling them when they allowed some to have a few of the 1061 audio tapes that it’s only for personal use and not to be given to anyone else. And to put the icing on that cake they have baked, they are suing me and threatening to sue anyone who disobeys their edict.

Niklas:

Most accounts I’ve read from outsiders who dealt with Classmates in person have been consistent about them coming across as relatively ‘normal’. A May 1997 Seattle Times article quotes a spokeswoman from Interact Entertainment Group who describes the Higher Source consultants they hired as ‘strict in diet and dress’ but with ‘a good sense of humor’ and being ‘exceptionally smart’. In the discourse surrounding Heaven’s Gate, there is much talk of ‘brainwashing’. Students are portrayed as some manner of hypnotized victims spellbound by a charismatic leader. Ben Zeller – whose writings are a must-read for anyone who wants to understand Heaven’s Gate – disagrees. He argues that, rather than mindless cultists, the members were devoted religious adherents. Bearing this in mind, it’s interesting to observe how both HBO’s Heaven’s Gate: The Cult of Cults and an ambitious podcast series I listened to feature Zeller heavily in the historical segments yet omit his views on brainwashing. Instead, these analyses are provided by a colorful cast of characters who all appear to be occupational anti-cult entrepreneurs with only rudimentary knowledge about Heaven’s Gate.

45. Mark:

– Ben Zeller has demonstrated a tendency to rely on a more studied model of careful analysis and educated background, resulting in an independent point of view and objective reasoning to back up his studies. Documentary producers inevitably want less thorough examinations in favor of provocative quips and vapid statements. Accordingly, they often turn to a second or third tier of people in the field – alleged ‘cult experts’ who possess neither the credentials nor the logic required.

45. Sawyer:

It was Ben Zeller who sent me his first book’s manuscript on the Heavens Gate story to comment, which I did. I’m not sure he used much if any of what I said about it. For the Heavens Gate podcast by Pineapple Street Media he worked with that team to develop the 10 series podcasts that was quite instrumental to provide more of a look at the students in particular by playing a clip of the audio part of the video of The Class singing.

After that series had been very successful on iTunes, Ben Zeller invited me to join him and Anne Hepperman, the Director of the Heaven’s Gate Podcast, (who interviewed me at their Brooklyn Office and then came to my house in Vermont to get a more in depth interview) at the annual conference of the American Academy of Religion in Denver in 2018, I think it was, that Ben was a member of.

Anne and Ben knew that I was not happy with the way Terrie Nettles and Frank (Andody) portrayed both TI and DO as hypocrites. Anne wasn’t the writer so she had limited influence on the script and what was used from the interviews she provided the show. They didn’t give me any time to provide some explanation to the claims that TI was a hypocrite for writing letters to her vehicle’s daughter Terrie over the years TI and DO’s students weren’t permitted to write letters (though there were a few exceptions to that).

For me, I believed in TI and DO’s program of wiping out the past to begin to become a new creature. I had no strong ties to anyone in my past at the time so it was relatively easy for me to no longer relate to my vehicle’s family. After all I’d been living in British Columbia, Canada, near Clear water and then in Newport, Siletz and Waldport Oregon for nearly 4 years while my family was in New York where this vehicle of mine grew up and I was only occasionally calling or writing them, though I did visit them in the summer of 1975 before I joined with TI and DO.

But that was the program. I didn’t have to abide by the program. For the first 9 months in the group there were plenty of opportunities to contact family as it was the honor system whether someone separated from those ties or not.

But the report from Terrie because of one tiny sentence I believe she misinterpreted into thinking TI was looking for a way out of the group, yet she didn’t seem to have a clue I guess to who TI, The Soul was and how She was actually the greater driving force to help DO awaken – but then they were both equally that same driving force to fulfill the tasks they realized they were sent to do that in their design DO was to complete after TI left. We didn’t know in the Classroom that that was actually part of the design for TI (The Father, DO’s Older Member aka Heavenly Father, Jehovah and Elohim) to leave the task ahead of DO as even shown in Revelation 12:

Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The Flood is the vast negativity TI was at the helm of the task to receive and deal with for their first 10 years together. The saying, “the earth opened her mouth” was a way people spoke of someone going into the grave. In other words the death and leaving behind of her vehicle.

In the next verse…

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

…the Woman’s (TI’s Soul’s) seed continues and DO who TI graduated into The Next Level Above Human Membership was her seed and those who had the testimony of Jesus were The Students’ Souls about 4000 years ago with Moses (DO) who upheld “the commandments of God” and then some 2000 years ago upheld “the testimony of Jesus Christ” (also DO’s Soul’s).

I mean, say you were a student and entered into a university to study chemistry and the professor gave a lesson on completing an experiment. The professor might know of a number of ways to complete that same experiment but knows the Student needs to learn one of those primary ways of performing the experiment that even includes learning to follow instructions – a critical lesson to learn in any laboratory or for any team or crew. The student also needs to receive the instructions to prove to the Professor they can follow instructions as that might end up being a life and death situation if they don’t. The Student doesn’t design the program. We students didn’t have anything to do with the design of the experiment/program to outgrow and overcome our humanness. I knew from the start that TI and DO were exactly who they said they were and thus to me their instructions were exactly what I wanted to do, though I did have my weaknesses. TI didn’t need to follow the drop the past guideline as we did yet she did by separating from Terrie, her vehicle’s husband and her other three children. But TI felt to keep Terrie abreast of some of what she was thinking and felt to help Terrie (and Joey, her vehicles son) with a small amount of financial help as well, what added up to about $600.00 I believe Terrie reported.

Furthermore when TI did instigate our visiting our human families in 1985, the task was described primarily as relieving their anxiety about our absence from their lives. As it turned out it was also a test of our own commitment to TI and DO. TI wrote letters to Terrie and sent her some funds for several reasons. One was to relieve her anxiety at her mothers absence from her life. But also, both TI and DO loved Terrie and wanted to give her the best chance they could of rising up to see Them as who they had awakened to become, Two Older Member Souls from the Next Level Above Human, the Kingdom of God, the Physical Kingdom of Heaven. We have about 200 audio tapes that show how dedicated TI was to the task so for anyone to believe what Terrie guessed and perhaps wanted to believe about TI “trying to get out” has no evidence to it and instead there is tons of evidence to the contrary.

Another point in that podcast, while I’m at it was brought up by Terrie also that was critical of DO because he didn’t tell Terrie that TI’s vehicle had been sick and died. I know from a human perspective that would be a horrible thing to not tell her. But TI and DO were not humans though they occupied human vehicles. As it turned out, TI had told DO not to tell Terrie about her dying since she knew she was leaving. The doctors sent her home to die because they said the cancer in her liver had spread throughout her body and TI didn’t want to go through all it might take to try to halt the cancer. They even told the doctor before he even diagnosed her with liver cancer that she didn’t want to fight it nor be kept alive on machines. TI knew it was time to exit. DO said she burnt out her vehicle dealing with the bulk of the negativity against her that primarily started when they went public and attracted followers in 1975.

The clincher that DO was honestly trying to follow TI’s last wishes by not telling Terrie of TI’s death of her vehicle at that time is evident because TI didn’t tell Terrie that she had her eye removed, from Cancer, some 2 years before the death sentence. We lived in Texas mostly in those years where Terrie also lived and yet TI didn’t call Terrie but one time I think. Nor did TI visit Terrie. Nor did TI talk about her sickness to Terrie.

I believe TI didn’t want to tell Terrie because she didn’t want Terrie to be upset and didn’t want to have Terrie want to visit her and to unknowingly cause interference with DO being able to carry on the Classroom to finish the task.

DO said he knew there would come a time where he would have to explain to Terrie what happened to TI, and why he had to live by TI’s last wishes. DO did send two students to explain about TI’s exit soon after TI left. TI was concerned big time with the Groups security. After all there were investigators looking for various adult students and the FBI at one time were looking for them thinking they had something to do with the cattle mutilations in Wyoming, Colorado and Texas and Oklahoma in the early to mid 1970’s. TI and DO didn’t want some so called cult deprogrammer to try to kidnap someone’s loved one in the Group. The students were all adults and no one was held against their will or threatened in any way or made to feel guilty for leaving. In fact some were sent out of the group a number of times because they didn’t seem to be fully engaging growth as TI and DO felt we needed to do.

By the way, there was one time that DO called a meeting that TI didn’t attend to where DO asked us to bring any bibles we had to. We didn’t have many so we doubled up on them. I think I recall I was partners with Chkody at the time. DO had us open up to Revelation 12:1.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

DO said the “Woman” (generator of life) was speaking of TI his Older Member. The entire chapter of Revelation 12 is like an outline of what was to happen from TI’s perspective where Revelation 11 was like an outline of what was to happen from both TI and DO’s perspective. Revelation 10 is like an outline of what was to happen from Students perspective prior to Revelation 11 and after they ascended back into their positions on board spacecrafts in the Next Level’s keeping. There is lots more to say about the Book of Revelation that I’ve said in my book and in video’s posted on my YouTube channel: 3spm.

Finally regarding the Heaven’s Gate Podcast, Frank (who had been Andody in the Class until he left in 1993) said that DO had become more controlling after TI left when I think the evidence suggests if one wants to use that “controlling” word that there were actually less “controls” in place after TI left. We had more movies, video’s, deserts, exercise programs. DO ate with us more and DO was more relaxed on talking. I asked Frank for examples of DO becoming more controlling and he had nothing to say.

Niklas:

Today, most scholars consider the concept of brainwashing– a term that first emerged to explain why captured US soldiers had defected to North Korea – as not only pseudoscience but also inapplicable to members of what we commonly call ‘religious cults’. One of the consultants in the HBO series, a sociologist named Janja Lalich, dismisses the relative scientific consensus on brainwashing as ‘some academics who want us to think that it doesn’t exist’. On the contrary, she ‘guarantees’ its existence based on her experience as an activist in a Marxist-Leninist political party. She has since, and I quote, ‘dedicated her life to educating others about cults’ by writing books and giving lectures. She’s also launched her own scientific explanation for brainwashing: ‘bounded choice’. One of her books uses Heaven’s Gate to argue this model.

46. Mark:

– Lalich wrote a non-objective book about her experience in a cult and then threw in our trademarks – which are illegal for her to use – to get people to buy it. None of these ‘experts’ have any training in the relevant fields. They have neither the studied background nor the discipline but are used by directors for sheer sensationalism. The characters in that HBO special had already been discredited by professionals in fields such as anthropology, sociology, psychology and applied religious studies long before it was produced. They are low-level hacks who should never be used by real news or documentary-makers seeking accurate information. We told the production crew, in person, not to use those individuals. Instead, they edited Zeller’s contributions to the show down to a minimum.

46. Sawyer:

First off, the so called Trademarks that Mark and Sarah registered are very in doubt. None of them were condoned by TI and DO and Crew. Mark and Sarah received nothing to give them reasons to trademark anything but even if they did or even if that was a good idea, to keep those images away from new and old believers is very against TI and Do’s intentions in my evidenced based opinion.

Niklas:

In the media section of Janja Lalich’s website, Cult Research & Information Center, there is a 2021 video called Secrets of the Heaven’s Gate Cult. I watched it and noticed a few extraordinary assertions. For instance, she purports to have been the first to figure out who the departed were and what cult they belonged to. That is downright ridiculous since everyone’s pockets contained an ID, and the Heaven’s Gate website was left open on their computers. Furthermore, she says there were media vans ‘lined up’ on her street, with reporters hanging on her doorstep waiting for the renowned expert to appear. Robert Balch and David Taylor – both of whom appear in the HBO series – are by all accounts the only academics to have worked directly on Heaven’s Gate before the suicides, and they attracted nowhere near that kind of media hounding.

47. Mark:

– If those in the Class truly were ‘brainwashed’, there really is little hope for the world. This insistence is a clear indicator of weakness and lack of serious study by these ‘specialists’. In reality, they are just recovering from their own failures. Why have neither Lalich nor the other one – Steve Hassan – who appeared in the Stitcher podcast and HBO special never so much as contacted us to get the real story or verify their information? Nor have they spoken to any of those from the Class featured in the same programs. We own all the Group’s teachings, and we’ve never heard from either of them.

47. Sawyer:

Mark says, “We own all the Group’s teachings…” That “ownership” was decreed by Judge Lisa Guy Schall to enter into a settlement with Mark and Sarah so they wouldn’t appeal her judgment against them having any right to any of the Heaven’s Gate property they left behind. So they bribed the County to get the intellectual property they did get. Then they used that settlement decision to win another Consent Decree in 1999. But in reality TI and DO didn’t want anyone to “own” the material.

Here is an example of what DO thought about ownership taken from Session 12 of the “Beyond Human – The Last Call” Video Series:

“Actually, there shouldn’t be any here in the human kingdom. This kingdom and every element on it, everything that goes into making an automobile or a house or a company or anything else, belongs to the Chief of Chiefs and His Kingdom, the God of Gods. It does not belong to humans. Humans play a little game of copy-cat by saying, “I want to own this, I want to stake this off, it’s mine.” It isn’t his, he’s just playing a game. Now if he has the attitude that it isn’t “mine,” he’s at least a little closer. If he has the attitude of saying, “This is just entrusted to me as the keeper of it, and I’ll do the best I can.” And if the day comes when a Representative is there with the transition available, the day is come if you’re someone who might be capable of connecting with this and know your Father.”

Previous to this part of DO’s talk he explained needing to have a car title or house title to abide by the laws of this land, but in the case of the Intellectual Property belonging to it’s creators there is no need for such a legal document unless someone has chosen to look to the human kingdom minds to drum up such a justification.

They wanted “any items of value that are retrievable by you be divided among those who feel inclined to disseminate our information” and who could even sell it to raise funds to continue to disseminate their material. They are suing me and Cathy for making and selling T shirts with the heaven’s gate logo on them and for using the Celestial Being image Ollody created. All we wanted to do was put those images out into the world and sure we have to turn a little profit to be able to continue doing that and other related work. But they let those lawsuits go to their heads and caused them to ignore what TI and DO showed they expected to happen.

But since Mark brings up the Stitcher, Pineapple Street Media documentary, that had Lalich and Hassan in it, which I agree are know nothings who media groups turn to, to please their primary constituents

However, while I was working with Anne Hepperman, having been invited by her to be interviewed in her teams office in Brooklyn to include me in their podcast and when she came to my house in Vermont for additional footage, I learned that she also interviewed Nancie Brown, mother of Alxody’s vehicle (one of the Students who exited), who I had also been close to after I left the Group in 1994.

Anne learned from Nancie that she had a video tape of the Christmas celebration, I believe of 1996 when Alxody and Vrnody returned from their choice to have the castration operation. By the way, DO set up that option, in a way that required a student who wanted the operation to go live in an area close to where the operation would be performed by a certified surgeon of that procedure. That person needed to get a job to pay for it themselves. This way that person would not be under the influence of DO. So Alxody and Vrnody (who was a relatively new student having joined in 1994, whom I met then, had finished their having that operation.

The Song of TI and DO:

The video showed the Classroom singing the DO a deer song from the Sound of Music that they changed the lyrics to be about TI and DO’s Classroom. TI and DO had felt that musical was significantly influenced in the story and music, etc. directly by a Next Level Above Human Crew to be a type of outline for TI and DO’s awakening and taking a group of students through learning their lessons (TI called a “piano roll” to where each lesson step was like one note on the piano and all the lessons would accumulate into a “song”, (which is depicted in Revelation chapters 5 and 14). TI also compared the lesson plan to Old McDonald’s Farm song to where each lesson step was like the sound each animal made, so that each time one goes through the song they sing the building string of animal sounds, again into a “song”. In the case of the Classroom the lessons weren’t literally musical sounds/notes. For instance one lesson step was to stop oneself from thinking about the past. This was the beginning of becoming a new creature in TI and DO’s “Process” aka Overcoming Process to cease operating as a human and with human mind and to increase operating with Their Next Level Mind by adopting their behaviors and ways they taught since they were the Teachers of the Experiment Requirements to complete the Astronaut Training Program to literally get a job that could be eternal to work in Crews on board spacecrafts that could be as large as planets, inside and/or out.

So on with the story. So Anne told me that Nancie told her that Mark and Sarah said she couldn’t give the video to anyone, that it was meant for her only. So Anne wanted to use it so knowing that I had a close relationship with Nancie asked me if I would ask her to allow her to use the audio track in the podcast. How could this be a bad thing I thought. Mark and Sarah were crazy with their sense of being the authority over all the material they had possession of. So I called Nancie and asked her and she told me Mark (and don’t know if she included Sarah) made her promise not to give the video to anyone, confirming what Anne had told me.

So it was then time for Anne to visit with Nancie in California to get an interview. When she went there she asked Nancie if she could rip (remove) the audio track from the video and Nancie agreed. That’s how part of the audio track got into the Heaven’s Gate podcasts, I believe, last episode #10.

However, Anne also told me that when Mark (and perhaps Sarah) heard it broadcast he was very upset and issued some kind of threat against their playing it but I don’t know if they ever followed through with their threat.

The video also included a “talent show” by some students and I believe I ended up seeing part of it in another documentary. I’m not sure how that came about but the HBO Max show, Heaven’s Gate Cult of Cults was a joint effort by the producers of the Heaven’s Gate podcast and a California based Video production Group.

Niklas:

Mrcody and Srfody have now served as Heaven’s Gate’s caretakers for over twenty-five years – longer than the Class even existed. Their day-to-day tasks range from website maintenance to answering emails and handling the Group’s intellectual property. Ever vigilant, in 2020 they threatened to sue a rapper called Lil Uzi Vert unless he changed his album cover which used a modified version of the Heaven’s Gate logo.

48. Mark:

– The Telah Foundation requires roughly four hours on an average day; about thirty hours per week, including weekends. The remaining time is devoted to our full-time jobs so that we can finance these activities. Our main task is disseminating the Next Level information to the world – from the website to the book, the tapes, and all that relates to it. It is our firm belief that the Class bequeathed their teachings to us in the way they wanted them to be, without edits or spotlights placed on individuals left behind. Srfody and I have gone to great lengths to ensure the materials remain intact. We have a profound understanding that the Group’s writings and intellectual property are part of their legacy.

48. Sawyer:

Mark and Sarah are both convinced that they and they only are to spread TI and DO’s information. That’s never been TI and DO’s intention for them to limit others and limit who could see/hear/read the information. Yes they have supported the website for all these years and I of course don’t take that away from them but they are not doing even a decent job of sharing the information with the world. They have told me and Cathy to our faces that they see people that attempt to use TI and DO’s information as “cockroaches” who they show their court order/consent decrees to and they “scatter” because of. They think of people as “swine” also, yet they do provide the website. They accused me of promoting suicide, calling me a “murderer” when I’ve never killed anyone nor promoted suicide and actually have talked endlessly about the futility of suicide and how the group themselves were anti human suicide because we need our physical bodies to learn lessons through.

There are so many things they could do to share Ti and Do’s Information with the “world” that they hardly lifted a finger to do. They finally put the Beyond Human videos on Vimeo while they had been available on YouTube and through myself and Crlody (Carlan) for many years. Even a new believer in TI and DO, referred to as XF did more to share the information with the world than they have done and they issued strikes against him or had someone named Dave do so, when all XF did was post the Beyond Human Videos for free download.

In 1997 they were even harassing Rkkody and Rkkody’s housemate Gnrody. I have proof of this. They wanted Rkkody to give them the audio tapes he and Oscody had retrieved from Storage. They had retrieved 486 audio tape cassettes and pretty much split them so that Rkkody had about 200 of them and Oscody had the others. Rkkody knew from the Letter Mark and Sarah received from DO and Crew that they were to divide the items of value among those who were inclined to disseminate our information, and the audio tapes were stacked in boxes at the front of that storage room. In the same Letter it was suggested that Mark and Sarah get help with Storage from Rkkody and Oscody (and even others). According to Rkkody Mark and Sarah wanted nothing to do with Storage, which is why they turned over the keys to vehicles and storage codes and locations and the Letters to Rkkody. It was about a week later that Mark and Sarah saw that the main media frenzy that happened had died down already and then decided they wanted to do the task they were given the opportunity to do. So they wanted the tapes retrieved by Rkkody since Oscody was working with Mark and Sarah at that point. Both Rkkody and Oscody were entertaining exiting their vehicles anyway so why not leave the tapes with Mark and Sarah. So Rkkody copied the audio cassettes and began to digitize them and put them on CD’s and send them to libraries and people like myself.

So before Rkkody exited he gave the audio masters to Mark and Sarah and the ones he’d copied by that time were in Carlan’s hands as Carlan was working with him to do all aspects of the dissemination task. By the way the dissemination task was intended to be done by all believers in TI and DO to show the Next Level we wanted to work for them. Mark and Sarah are still attempting to take that task away from people. They said as much to Cathy and I in person in 2021, saying something like, “isn’t what we are doing to disseminate the information enough,” showing that they missed the whole point that new believers needed to rise to that occasion as shown in Jwnody’s document in the Heaven’s Gate Book, “Away Team from Deep Space Surfaces Before Departure”.

Next where Mark includes the “tapes” in the Next Level Information they were supposed to disseminate, why is it that 1061 audio tapes were never disseminated hardly at all to anyone but Jhnody (Juan) who they sent some 80 audio cassettes to, telling him they were for “safe keeping”.

Then Jhnody kept asking for more tapes and Mark and Sarah finally over a years time sent him digitized audios – over 900 (that included what Rkkody had, that he had sent me in 1997). So when Jhnody realized they were going to be hidden away, knowing they were intended to be shared with the world, knowing that I had maintained a YouTube channel (3spm) for many years sharing tapes with people that Mark and Sarah didn’t attempt to stop at that time, he sent me a thumb drive containing over 900 of the digitized audios.

Mark and Sarah repeatedly call me a thief of those tapes yet they were gifted to me by Rkkody and Jhnody who both were named by DO to receive the tapes in Mark and Sarah’s Letter.

Where Mark says, “Our main task is disseminating the Next Level information to the world – from the website to the book, the tapes, and all that relates to it” that establishes that they are also talking about the audio tapes. Yet it’s been 25 years that the audio tapes have not been disseminated by them. Why many people ask. Many people think it’s because of money – they hope to make money with them somehow. I don’t think it’s really about money, though there could be some sense that if they exclusively have them they hold a stronger position with movie studios since apparently they are acting as check partners for Rio (Neody) to arrive at a movie deal. I wouldn’t be surprised if that is part of their desire to have all the intellectual property the group made in their exclusive possession. They have said things to Cathy and to me along the lines of their wanting to preserve the information for 200 years. They told me and those on one of my live streams (that I have as evidence) that included Cathy before I knew her personally and also later when Cathy and I met with them in November of 2021 that they intended on putting all the audio tapes on Vimeo (where they have a channel with the Beyond Human Video Tapes posted). They said they would do this by March 25, 2022. Mark said that this wasn’t going to happen unless Carlan and I both gave them all the audio tapes we had and agreed to not disseminate them because then they would be the exclusive disseminators of them via Vimeo. At our face to face meeting in Nov 2021 I asked them what was special about that date and they said it was very special to them, that’s all I recall.

There was no way in the world that Carlan or I would give them any of the audio tapes we were given by Rkkody and Jhnody. So maybe they would say, that’s why they never posted the audios on Vimeo. However, I learned that they originally intended to use Vimeo because they didn’t think someone could download them from there. But that Mark discovered that using an Apple application they could be downloaded. I don’t know if that was why they didn’t post them there.

However I could never go along with that, as what happens when the site is down, no one has access to the tapes? Mark and Sarah talk about preserving them for 200 years but what better way to really preserve them than by putting them in as many hands as possible. Furthermore what’s the use of preserving them for 200 years if no one can hear them until then. For several years Mark and Sarah have sent someone who asked for the audios one audio at a time that had a limited time span that could be downloaded and couldn’t be saved on the person’s computer or phone (that I was aware of). Before I met Cathy in person, she had to ask for the same tape multiple times because the time ran out or her cell phone died so lost the link.

These tapes average over an hour each and there are 1061 of them according to Mark. Some are hard to hear and those are some of the first ones Mark and Sarah send to people which in an of itself can discourage them from listening to others. People aren’t given the tape log so they can choose which tapes they want to listen to. When someone receives tape number one they can ask them for tape number two. At that rate it would take many years to hear all the tapes. Plus what TI and DO talk about isn’t at all easy to hear and even harder to digest as we all have Influences that can balk at who they say they are and why they are hear and what is required to graduate Their Classroom and why the requirements are so steep. I was present for over 700 of the meetings and yet when I listen to them again, I realize how much I missed and how much there still was for me to gain from them. So keeping them from people makes no sense unless one fears the heat of being seen as a representative of what the mainstream media refers to as a dangerous suicide cult leader.

Mark and Sarah have been attempting to legitimize TI and DO’s teachings as becoming a new age religion. Do talked a bit about that in audio tape 331, if I recall but perhaps in another. I had felt that before I heard DO say it, perhaps from being present during that meeting it stayed in my subconscious. What I was consciously seeing was the language they were using in the email interviews they would give over the years. Like when they said, there is no Heaven or Hell to one interviewer. I could see saying that because of TI and DO’s interpretation of those terms being somewhat different than the other religions depictions of those words. And perhaps they did say more about it in those emails and the publisher didn’t use it all, but I’ve seen a lot of evidence that Mark and Sarah say very little and in my opinion assume a great deal and think they know so much while showing that they have forgotten a great deal. We all lose some of what we once gained when we dropped out of the Group but then we lose even more if we don’t “use” what we still have and attempt to add to what we once had by listening to tapes, and reading their book, etc. I don’t know if they ever listen to much as I know from first hand experience that influences don’t want us to do so as it becomes painful to see what we lost by dropping out.

The next sentence says more, “It is our firm belief that the Class bequeathed their teachings to us in the way they wanted them to be, without edits or spotlights placed on individuals left behind.”

All this so called eloquent language. There was no “bequeathed”. They were supposed to retrieve the contents of storage and divide the items of value among those who were inclined to disseminate Their Information. They, Rkkody and Jhnody were given the website that contains the book. Jhnody and Rkkody were also sent information directly by DO that Mark and Sarah didn’t get and that wasn’t in Storage. Oscody was given the Book to publish and register in the Library of Congress. Somehow Mark and Sarah took that task from him. Rkkody was given the codes to make all the programming changes to the Heaven’s Gate various websites. Jhnody was given the original masters of the Beyond Human video series of 12 tapes close to 13 hours in total. As I’ve shown Rkkody and Oscody retrieved the audio tapes. Mark and Sarah told Cathy and I they went to Storage and the locks were on the door but Rkkody says in his manuscript that Oscody went to storage and discovered the locks were put on Storage. Mark and Sarah told Cathy and I that the reason they didn’t go to Storage was because they had to help authorities by going to help them identify the bodies. Yet every member as I understand it had on their person some form of legal Identification including drivers licenses, passports for many.

What we learned subsequently was that all Mark and Sarah did was send authorities in San Diego a list of the names of students, something they had received from DO and Crew. Why then didn’t they go to Storage to retrieve the “items of value…”? There is much circumstantial evidence that Rkkody’s manuscript is the most accurate of what happened as I have stated before. They were afraid and that fear was greater than their trust that TI, DO and Crew would protect them. I believe that’s also why they still won’t show their faces to the media and is why they don’t want people to have TI and DO’s information and treat it seriously. They still don’t trust in DO. They harp on “security” but at this point it’s blown way out of proportion because though we do strive to be careful in certain ways, TI and DO and Crew will help us through the rough spots of disseminating their information.

Finally, there is this little statement that says, “…the Class bequeathed their teachings to us in the way they wanted them to be, without edits or spotlights placed on individuals left behind.”

“…without edits or spotlights placed on individuals left behind.”

This appears to say a great deal to me though perhaps I am wrong in looking between the lines but perhaps I am seeing what they may be hiding.

Years ago, given that Mark and Sarah wouldn’t send me the audio tapes they had digitized as I never wanted the actual cassettes, saying it was because I would share them with others, I asked them in an email whether the reason they didn’t want anyone to have those audios was because of how it could be found in them the explanation of their being instructed to leave the Class for not wanting to follow procedures surrounding the lesson step entitled, “I Could be wrong”. Mark wrote to me which I still have the proof of that said “that never crossed our minds” and that “…you should restrain such wonderings” (paraphrased). But why should I restrain my wondering. After all wouldn’t anyone want to know why they were speaking out of both sides of their mouth by saying they wanted to spread the information around the world while holding back over 1000 hours of audio tapes?

After all by that point, I had followed an email interview they gave to Gizmodo I believe it was (that is posted on my blog, Sawyerhg.wordpress.com) where they were asked why they left the group and their response was something along the lines of, “to do this task” which was a huge lie and there is a great deal of evidence in the audio tapes of DO talking about how he had to instruct them to leave if they didn’t want to follow procedures. I didn’t even know about the many clips where DO addresses them until years after this Gizmodo interview had been published.

Also before I knew of all the audio tape clips with DO talking about how they ceased to look to his Mind but were satisfied looking to one another’s minds, had become a couple and had refused tasks DO offered to them because of not wanting to change anything about their comfort level outside the Classroom or circumstances, I watched a YouTube video of an email interview where they said according to the host, when asked about their holding back the audio tapes, that they wouldn’t be released until all those spoken about in the tapes were deceased (perhaps something about doing so in respect for their families, might have been part of it). The host I believe was, Dr. Todd Grande, but I haven’t been able to find that interview yet. When I heard that I had no real interest in talking much about Mark and Sarah. I was content we had the audio tapes TI, DO and Crew wanted us to have and that if They wanted us to have more, they would arrange it somehow, which they did I believe by compelling Mark and Sarah to send them to Jhnody.

So in that light who are those students, in this case former students who are spoken of in the audios that are not yet deceased? There are a number but Mark and Sarah certainly are included. Plus what kind of criteria is that for not providing TI and DO’s information to the public. Are they claiming to be servants of TI and DO or not. Is their judgment so correct to what TI and DO would do now. They seem to think so, which is very sad. It’s one thing to be confident with actually having significant proof of how TI and DO thought about a subject and another thing altogether to use our own minds to be confident about what TI and DO might say and do. Isn’t that attitude telling with the reason they were sent out of the Classroom. They didn’t know how they could be wrong. They had become confident in their own opinions, even seeing or picking and choosing minor things TI and DO said as their justification for doing whatever they wanted with the information.

Niklas:

Do you have any human goals you are currently working towards?

49. Mark:

– We are just making due. Our main goal right now is to get done with this interview; it is just a few sentences short of The Greatest Story Ever Told, and that ran for over four hours. Things are different with Ti, Do, and the Group gone, but Srfody and I do what we can to evolve in the ways of the Next Level. We have grown together to become the longest-lasting partnership in the history of the Class. The Next Level knows what they are doing.

49. Sawyer:

“Just making due”. Isn’t filing a lawsuit against me, Cathy and Carlan (Crlody) something they are “working towards,” as asked by the host?

Look at their ego acting as if this interview was “a few sentences short of The Greatest Story Ever Told, and that ran for over four hours”. That film was about Jesus. They are seeking to stop disciples of the same Soul who was in Jesus from sharing what he said in some 1061 audio tapes. Marks responses in this interview is not even short of one of the greatest pack of lies and deceit and manipulative innuendo that has been told in a long time, perhaps alongside how the organized church replaced Jesus with Paul of Tarsus who talked about Jesus as if he knew when he never knew much of his Mind. Paul showed some signs of wanting to be a student of Jesus’ teachings but he just didn’t know a lot about those teachings so fell prey to the Lower Forces trying to commandeer the Teachings of Jesus to distort and dilute them into what became the Christian religion.

Mark brags about being the so called “longest-lasting partnership in the history of the class” but they were booted out of the Class because among other things DO said they wanted a relationship with one another. They were sent out in 1987. From that point on they were not in the Class so how can they be the longest lasting partnership in a group they were no longer a part of.

DO still wanted them to not reject the entire Next Level and go further and further away from Their Minds, so he kept offering them tasks and finally at their departure had offered them the tasks they were given by DO and the most important parts of those tasks they have twisted to doing their own way which is contrary to what DO’s wishes were but like the Next Level Older Member that DO is, made it all into a positive to show us what can happen to even someone who feels they are a believer. They can even believe DO was off track in ways and yet not allow themselves to even see how they are saying that (like in this interview), while thinking they love TI and DO and as they mutate Their teachings into a new age religion far afield from what was taught by TI and DO.

I had to do my best to set the record straight as I know how to do.

I really do not enjoy surfacing Mark and/or Sarah’s misinformation propagation, but they give me no choice. They could have just left me along to play audio tapes on my YouTube channel and send people the information, all freely. They could have made them all available to me and anyone who wanted to disseminate them. But they chose not to so now I and Cathy and Carlan (and so some degree Jhnody) must seek to win this lawsuit for the Freedom of Information about all the truth about what exactly TI and DO taught and demonstrated to the world over 24+ years.

It’s not over until TI and DO and Crew decide to advance the recycling. Anyone can appeal to TI and DO and ask them for service and seek to put it into motion as they help those see what shape it can take.

sawyer
sawcat575@gmail.com
http://www.youtube.com/3spm
http://www.facebook.com/sawyer.heavensgate
http://www.sawyerhg.wordpress.com

The actual words of the class regarding their final instructions

crlody

“We would hope that the public would have an opportunity for more thorough knowledge of who we are and what we’re about”.

“These tapes can be sent to the media or wherever you would feel appropriate”.

“disseminating information about what actually happened here”

“we’d like these funds to be available to those who still support the class and want to help get our information out”

“It is our desire that any items of value that are retrievable by you be divided among those who feel inclined to disseminate our information”

” we did mention to our landlord, Sam, who might have better luck with the authorities in claiming some of those items, since he owns the house, that he could have whatever valuables are there”

“RKK, you have the original master, we thought you would know best how to duplicate the tapes and where to distribute them for widest coverage”

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