Archive for October, 2011

Sawyer’s response to Christian bloggers post – “The Heresy of the Heaven’s Gate Cult”

October 18, 2011

The following is my response to Henry’s post “The heresy of the Heaven’s Gate Cult” on his Christian blog, “Spirit of Discernment”. I responded in depth to each opinion and accusation to the best of my ability. I was temporarily stumped by his reference to the the order in which he said the Two Witnesses would arrive based on the various Revelation’s depictions of the 7 Seals and the 7 Angels with the 7 Trumphets and 7 angels with the 7 vials, so it gave me cause to dig into the entire book of Revelations more thoroughly, something I have been meaning to do for a long time now, and in so doing, I saw where he was making broad assumptions of the events depicted leaving one less reason to scripturally diqualify Ti and Do as having fulfilled the role of the Revelations Chapter 11 Two Witnesses as one of several depictions of the promised return of the Kingdom of God for the harvest of Souls and the discernment of which souls might be “saved” for the next Earth based “Soul Garden” civilization, following a thorough recycling period when as Jesus said pertaining to a temple in Jerusalem, “There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down”. I don’t repeat this last quote to sound like I’m reissuing a punishment to the sinners as religionists and many Christians do and gloat over thinking they are somehow going to fare well being with Jesus in the clouds. I add it only because it’s a fact of life on Earth. Life is temporary on EVERY level even all that exists on the surface and recent science continues to prove that fact in the times, however many, the globe has heated and cooled, flooded and dried, etc. with or without the stimulus from the human population and their technology. It seems so apparant that the timing of each cycles end coincides with humans, many of which have had it so relatively easy for even a number of generations that expands their “head” beyond the reality of their own tiny affect and control, simply because they have become the product of their own illusion whether in a religio-spiritual or secular/scientific frame.

But before I start a little introduction and suggestion I gave to Henry:

Henry, I have included below a post I’ve made on my blog for the sake of the tiny amount of people that read my blog. My response here is quite long but as you were addressing and accusing me as a witnesss to the Two Witnesses it’s only right that I do the best job I could do to round out my responses with detailed examples from my experiences that are vast in this regard. You have warned me as most Christian bloggers eventually do before they cut me off entirely or do as L.A. Marzulli has done and disable comments, that you won’t allow me to “promote” Ti and Do in my responses. I guess there is something here that you fear, yet can not point out even ONE thing Ti and Do said or that I said Ti and Do said and did that can not be fully qualified by a number of scriptures but primarily by the words of Jesus found in any red letter bible but that a great deal of collaboration is found in The Book of Revelations and certain of the disciples letters. Even Paul said a few things that cross reference with something Jesus said. It’s the tendency of those who hate(detest)(not love less) the Real One True Kingdom of God and their representative, which of course many atheists and new age spiritualists have their way of doing, and religionist teachers as well, to see things completely black and white. Now it’s true in the end days (now) and in particular during the battle for souls, NOW that will conclude by the final return of Ti and Do and their crew of graduate 24 elder students and whoever else they wish to bring in the way many Christians actually expect it, but instead of seeing a bearded long haired white robed, or on a horse or sitting on a cloud with a sickle and a harp they will see the face that was before millions and millions for over a month on ALL the news stations of the world. Do’s FACE and wow will some freak when they see that however that is projected and evident so all will be FACED with the real deal. Thus for those that prepare for that event now, they will still have a chance to be saved. Otherwise many will die of shock and their spirit will be suspended in that shock until their spirit is recycled but will seem like an eternity. So you can disallow my comments and that’s fine with me. I don’t wish it. I’m sad if you do but it’s not about me, but you won’t be able to not see Ti and Do when they come. I also suspect the dead will also be faced with Do’s FACE and will respond with the same horror as if they programmed hatred of Do, then that hatred will be directed towards themselves because Do will not accept it. It will just bounce off of him.

Now it’s not too late to at least do one thing. Allow my posts, all of them for the benefit of others who read your blog since you leveraged the attack and convinced them, you are pulling them into the same eventual horrific condition. That is the only forgivable sin, which is why I suggest you allow my comments and then save yourself to some degree I hope by saying somethign to the affect, but I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, just want to be clear about my suggestion…but be honest..and express it. “You don’t know if Ti and Do are who they said they were for a fact” so it’s up to each reader to make up their own mind. If you don’t believe it, of course that’s your choice but at least it doesn’t drag others into that very shaky place of thinking you know more than God the creators of the planet and all it’s lifeforms.

In 1975 Ti and Do told those that didn’t know how to think about what they were presenting to ask the Kingdom of God about it, about them, about what their next best step is and they cautioned that there were Luciferians that were responding to calling on the name Jesus, as they declared themselves to be after jesus left to Paul and later to others, to date. They said to sidestep the Luciferians project your questions and petitions and prayers as far away into the deep heaven’s as you can imagine. The Luciferians can’t capture that. This is also what Jesus taught in the Lords prayer. He said to pray to the Father. For those who knew him personally, and for those that were alive and believed for a time after he left, they could ask things in his “name” – then Jesus but He knew that name would not be used upon his return which he said but the scriptures are hard to get that from, so I may be wrong about those scriptures, but I’m not wrong about the fact that in REvelations it says, paraphrased He would have a new name” that only his sheep would know.

(If you want to read his blog I’ve posted the address at the end of this post but here is what Henry initially wrote that I address point by point.)

Henry said:

The heresy of the Heaven’s Gate cult
September 21, 2011 by Henry

I first encountered the heavens gate cult when I read a news article about how the brother of the Star Trek actress Nichelle Nichol’s (who played Lieutenant Uhura in the original series) committed suicide in 1997 in what was a mass suicide conducted by the Heaven’s Gate group to coincide with the passing of Hales Comet by the earth.

Sawyer says:

Actually it was Dstody, aka Destin as in Destiny (what he felt joining with Ti and Do was for him), (his name choice) who was Nichelle Nichol’s, in Star Trek, Lt. Ohura’s brother, Thomas (perhaps his middle name but one he used for jobs in the world that we had) Nichols, whom I interacted with a great deal over 19 years in the Ti and Do’s experiential overcoming classroom, who was one of the 38 students who laid down his physical human life in March of 1997 and who came to me in a dream in late October, or early November of 2008 and all I got from his presence was “Obama”. Dstody had a African American “black” vehicle and that was the only dream I’d ever had with him, though I’ve had three with Ti, three with Do alone, and two with Do while observing him with classmates (some of the first dreams I had in 1998 or so) and various students since 1997, but never before then. At the time I took it to mean Obama was a good vote so I voted for him a week or two later. Less than a month later I was reading Revelations and came to Rev. 6, the 4 horseman and when I saw the “black horse” a light went on as I thought, “Oh, Dst in the dream was telling me that Obama is the black horse”.

I’m going to divert to bring some scriptural detail to the idea that the black horse represents a dark skinned human body/vehicle.

In scripture a horse can represent a human. Look at these two segments of scripture that say a red horse talks.

Zec 1:7 Upon the four and twentieth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Sebat, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
Zec 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white.

note: So we have 1 rider on a red horse and then red horses, speckled and white without riders mentioned. So there are at least 1 rider and 3 horses, 1 of which is red-ruddy and the other ones red-ruddy, speckled white depending on the comma placements.

While we are at it, I believe when a horse is used to indicate a human physical body as in the few scriptures I am citing, (and of course Revelations chapter 6, a “rider” is a Soul as to ride one’s horse(vehicle) was to be in control of it and that is a big part of what a soul is taught to do, to be worthy of membership in the Kingdom of God’s crew. That control is what has been referred to as having Overcome or conquered one’s humanness but is worthless to do for self advancement. We must grow to want to do it for our Heavenly Father, “…thy will be done on Earth” which is why various religious pathways, though they look good don’t work because the giving of one’s will is put to the test the next time a member from the Kingdom of God comes to be with the selected horses and we are ready, willing and able to recognize them despite looking like an ordinary human, because of the quality of their mind, and leave everything of the human kingdom behind to “follow the lamb wherever he goes”.

Now this idea of a rider being a soul, some could wonder about, as are not all humans Souls or so we’re told? But if all humans were souls then why did Jesus differentiate humans that received “seeds” from those who had not, “to those whom much is given, much is required” (some arn’t given as much) and of course in the parable of the Kingdom of God as a seeding operation Jesus is describing how some seeds are devoured by birds and some fell on rocky soil…and some yield fruit. In other words, seeds are souls given to some as a gift that they must have been asking for somehow as the Kingdom of God created free will so we’d be the chooser, what to ask for, what to seek, what door to knock on and hope to find, as Jesus said was the “way” (we get on the receiving end of such a “gift”. If all had souls already where would be the need to plant seeds and what would become of those that don’t take full advantage of that gift. After all, what made Adam into a “Living Soul”? It was the “breath of life” he breathed in though his nostrils that came from his Lord God. Notice in the previous chapter of Genesus, “The Elohim created man, male and female and said be fruitful and mulitply and subdue the Earth”, which means conquer/overcome their human earthiness animal nature.

I also want to add at this point that in one of the only analogies Ti and Do gave over 19 years that I heard about was in describing the Kingdom of God, what they called the Next Level, (because it’s a human’s next evolutionary step from the human kingdom level), as ranchers who round up a group of wild horses and offer them a chance to be of service to the ranchers, that entails a training program. Those that take to the training are kept and assigned various tasks. The rest are let go and never have a relationship with a higher, more evolved kingdom level. So the Next Level are the ranchers and humans are like horses. Ti and Do, to my recollection or in writing never related this idea to Zecheriah or Revelation’s references to horses as human beings.

And here is the indicator that these horses are depictions of humans bodies:

(as the Spirit and/or Soul is as fruit from the body’s choices in life, of which if they are given the gift of a seed (soul), a part of which holds the recognition of it’s origin (the Kingdom of God), thus a measure of faith, that fruit is from a “good”(useful) tree as opposed to a “evil” (or trouble making/deceitful/manipulating) tree, thus a tare as opposed to the Wheat sown.)

Zec 1:9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.
Zec 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
Zec 1:11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

Note: These are sent by Lord to walk through the earth, and They talk thus not realistic to expect they are horses as in the animals.

red = hebrew 0122 ‘adom {aw-dome’}
 from 0119; TWOT – 26b; adj
 AV – red 8, ruddy 1; 9
 1) red, ruddy (of man, horse, heifer, garment, water, lentils)

speckled = hebrew 08320 saruq {saw-rook’}
 from 08319; TWOT – 2294a; n m
 AV – speckled 1; 1
 1) sorrel, reddish, tawny, bay

white = hebrew 03836 laban {law-bawn’} or (Gen. 49:12) laben {law-bane’}
 from 03835; TWOT – 1074a; adj
 AV – white 29; 29
 1) white

For any that think making reference to Zechariah are questionable data to quote, it’s always to be taken for what it’s worth. We do have record of Jesus referring to Zechariah and how he was stoned to death due to his work for the Lord. He was visited by messengers among which we get the TWO olive trees and TWO lampstands which are said to be both “annointed ones” which is one of the definitions of a Christ, thus the Two witnesses are both Christs (annointed), thus are the next or so called second coming of the task assignment called Christing or Christening.

That task entails teaching youngins how to become a “christ”. It is task that is never accomplished without an existing Christ taking us through the difficult birth canal of cutting all our Earth/Human roots, likes, dislikes, etc. and is never a task we then are assigned to perform for others until we have worked for a long time in various apprentising positions to gradually prove our trustworthiness. (So I am not saying any student is at this time a Christ. That’s not at all mine to determine or even know about. I am simply trying to de-mystify the task. It’s a task, an important one and a huge one for a huge HOLY MINDed Soul that wants to someday perform in such a task capacity thus must meet the strict requirements of their Older Member who had performed such a Christ task many times before to which they graduated to being a “Father” from which is depicted in Rev. 12).

(There’s a lot more to consider in this Zechariah connection, but I’ll leave it for another time).

Then when Obama came into office and almost his entire presidency was on the heels of the huge (biggest in the history of our civilization), financial “crisis” that is clear to many was a manipulation and/or at the least a blatent disregard for ethical business practises for the sake of windfalls of profit for a few as the robber barons gambled away any benefit ordinary citizens get from the huge amount of taxes they give and the financial crisis that has insued in the US has a ripple effect that is to date breaking the backs of countries but isn’t proceeding without strategies as there certainly is a conspiracy afoot here, even layers to where one layer doesn’t know of the other layer. Thus one way to define this verse is that the one sitting on the black horse is a “balancer” between opposing sides in a conflict and at a time when commodoties, wheat and barley are affected while oil and wine are not “hurt” is really “unjustly”. More specifically…

Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say Come and see And I beheld and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances (beam of the balance, thus what takes on the stess of what’s being balanced, thus a great yoke &/or burden) in his hand (to work on, his job).

and what is causing that stress:

Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Matters of commodities(foods given: Wheat and Barley), commerce (how much a penny buys) & thus finance.

Note: Now this is not saying he who sits on the black horse in Rev is related to someone sitting (or riding) on that horse(human vehicle) is acting consciously for the Kingdom of God. However the sit/rider is a Soul but is most likley a “fallen angel” Soul as are many if not all of those who have a great influence on humanity but don’t demonstrate the rules of behavior put forth by members of the Kingdom of God. But on the other hand, Obama himself, the human genetic vehicle that may have his own soul implant/seed, given to him sometime ago, if he was a seeker, like in his youth, which he indicates he did experience, may still look to the Kingdom of God and could have been why He read psalm 46 at the 2011 10 year anniversary 9/11 memorial in NYC, that says:

Psa 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
Psa 46:2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
Psa 46:3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.

Note talk of the” “Earth being removed and mountains carried into the sea(earthquakes), waters roar(tsunami) &/or waters = people roaring and troubled.

Psa 46:4 There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
Psa 46:5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.

Note: Interesting that this “River” is like the trunk with Branches, it’s streams – that fullfill all those in the city of God and this River is referred to as a “she”, which I can’t help but relate to Ti, The Father.

Psa 46:6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psa 46:7 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
Psa 46:8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.
Psa 46:9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
Psa 46:11 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

Now, of course there are many scriptures he could have chose and this choice to use this psalm, could have been a political one, as most things are for politicians who wish to get re-elected. By reading from pslams he is demonstrating his Judeao-Christian orientation vs the Islamic as some of his critics say he really is, though Islam recognizes Moses and Jesus and the book of Psalms is kind of neutral and it does coincide with the “shaking” often termed in the New testement as an earthquake, that occurred on 9/11/2001.

*** end of segway regarding horses = particular human beings ***

Henry said:

It was believed by those who were involved that the comet would take their souls to heaven. From a Christian point of view this of course is preposterous but what should be more surprising is the fact that this group claim also to be followers of Christ and cloak their beliefs in scripture. I personally have not studied the beliefs of this group extensively however from what I have learnt about them I know enough to designate them as a cult which promotes false doctrines.

Sawyer says:

Why is it not possible that the LORD could come in such a way that to us on Earth would experience as a comet? Where are the scriptures that rule that out? There are none, but there are quiet a few that rule it in.

But before addressing that idea, lets be clear about what Ti and Do and students believed. Do never said the comet would take their souls to heaven. They initially heard the underground reports that there was a object way beyond the so called orbit of Pluto showing erratic behavior. I was there when we first heard some of those reports. Then after I left them, as I’ve learned from having researched it, the Hale Bopp comet was reported to have had what became known as a “companion” object following along with the comet body. This was when people on Earth could see both the Comet and the companion with binoculars. This is also when photographs were taken by a Japanese Astrological team. Their picture showed the comet and the stars around it with an oval shape, which is part of the way the time lapsed photography so far away works, but the companion object didn’t have this oval shape which was certainly puzzeling to them.

Meanwhile there was a picture taken in the US that also showed the companion object but then when analysed by astronomers in Hawaii it wasn’t evident. There was something fishy there and some suspect it was airbrushed out for public release. I’m not being as thorough as I could be right now but there is documentation and much of the contravsery surround the late Art Bell who hosted a radio show out of Las Vegas, Nevada, whom among other things Do and crew were observing, as they were observing everything all over the planet.

We even lived in the Phoenix dessert in tent corridors and trailors with generators and huge 7 foot across mobile satelitte dishes we built the stands for that we could get satellite feeds for that provided news at the same time the various network news shows got them. And with those satelittes we picked up many Christian evangelists and a short time later had computers before the internet that we used to dial into various “bulletin boards”, one of which was called Paranet, which reported on much of the ufo related reports. I say all this because if anyone could be seen as an “observer” of what the Kingdom of God might at any moment instigate that could serve as a clue to the groups next step pertaining to information or to whether we might be better located for pickup, Do was an exquisit example. It wasn’t for entertainment.

However, then the comet with the alleged companion went behind the sun thus out of Earth’s eyeshot and when it came around the other side, back into view had no sign of a companion though still looked very, very different from any other comet viewed till then. It had two distinct tails which scientists in an effort to explain it, said it has a binary nuecleus. There are a number of photographs that show the two tails as these were easy to see even by amateurs. The previous photos never showed the two tails. These are facts not fiction or hearsay but then again everything these days is morphed in and out of reality so it’s no wonder so few have the stamina to keep digging. Most want to find what they consider to be a safe niche for their world view be anywhere from fringe to mainstream religio-spiritual to scientifically atheistic or not engaged at all.

Meanwhile the group, now Do and students were observing some of this contraversy. They had been looking for “pickup” since 1975 and were always concerned with being in the right place at the right time, never assuming the Next Level Above Human would spell it all out for them. They always took the point of view that they needed to themselves continue observing, watching all events, considering what they observe together with the degree of overcoming of the human world of their students, the primary reason they came, for them, to take them though their graduation/wheat harvest of the fruit. They knew they were given new information and guidence in a step wise fashion in accordance with the progress of the student body.

A case in point…In 1975 They initially thought the pickup would be months away but when pressed by students for a more definite time frame said they caved in to them some and said, “no more than 5 years away”. Interestingly, it was about 1980 that Ti set a date for pickup. We were all in San Antonio area at the time, still living outdoors. Perhaps it was before 1980 actually. We were camping at a place called “Cave without a name” in Bourne, Texas, actually the same town where Ti and Do had gone after leaving Houston in a type of whirlwind, setting out to tell others about the task they felt they had together.  I’d guess there were 45 to 48 students left then from the 96 who first gathered in Wyoming some 4 years prior. Ti and Do has a great deal to do with that number as in 1976 they had 19 of the students seperated from the larger body and told us who remained we made the “first cut”. (3 of those 19 ended up finding their way back to the group some 6-7 years later). Anyway, we prepared to be picked up by a spacecraft from the Next Level. They had us nearly fast that day and we got some early rest so we could stay up for as long as possible that night. The night passed without a pickup and we learned from Do that Ti felt she had “egg on her face”. However, looking back on that it was clear to Ti and Do that some members of the group were simply not ready to go as a number dropped out nearly immedieatly after that failed pickup time, as if they were staying there just for that event, missing the entire point to the task…what Ti and Do called the metamorphoic process of changing from a human (catapillar) to a above human (butterfly) which required bonding with the Older Member (present Heavenly Father) who would serve as a midwife for that real Soul birth (Jesus spoke of), that would become manifest as overcoming/conquering our vehicles human thoughts, ways, behaviors, past, relationships and even particular likes and dislikes.

Thus one can see the so called failed pickup as a Next Level way of vetting the serious minded students from the not so serious minded students as getting a ride on a UFO was never a draw for the serious minded students, though many of the students didn’t even know how big a draw such an idea might have been. I have lots of examples of how Ti and Do got info/tasks in steps that were just slightly ahead of the students ability to absorb/apply them.

Yes, it is true that Do and Students thought of this “companion” as a spacecraft that was manned by Ti and Ti’s crew coming to pick them up as they by 1996 even knew they had exhautsed all they were here to do. They had by then spelled out the information Ti and Do brought in 6 distinct and major ways, 4 of which received globalwide media. But when the companion was no longer visible, but perhaps even before that, knew that whether or not there was a spacecraft companion with the Hale Bopp comet or not was NOT important to them, which they posted on their web site what would be their 7th and last public offerring of the information.

I was with them for the first 5 public offerings and was included in what some might see as Do’s inner circle having an overseer task for the 5th offering and I only say this to provide some evidence that I was in a position to know a great deal about Do’s stepwise task operation. These public offerrings were never spoken of as a possible fulfillment of the prophecy of the 7 Angel’s “trumphets” or voices in Revelations. It just happened that way though Do was taking his lead from his Older Member, Ti who was at that time in “Heaven”. That’s not to say they never came upon those scriptures. I know they did and would have certainly seen that prophecy and recognized that they were nearly fulfilling it. I’m not actually saying these 7 offerrings were in fact the 7 angel’s trumphets. The angel’s we know are a messenger task. Thus it’s altogether possible this is the way the informational portion of the task was unrolled. Ti and Do never had much vision into the future in terms of how their task would/could play out. It was 1996 when Do felt “laying down their vehicles was likely” and decided to plan accordingly but he also said, if the Next Level didn’t feel this was the best next step then he felt they would pick them up in a spacecraft.

Here are the 7 public offerrings I’m considering to be the 7 messengers voices/trumphets (They may not correlate as there is no way I’ve seen that they do, except in the fact that there are 7):

1) 1975-6 (initial prophecy and only offerring they did together – public meetings by both Bo(Do) and Peep(Ti) that lasted 3 1/2 years (give or take a few days) but hit the news media in 1975,

2) 1988 by Do’s booklet we bound called “’88 Update – The UFO Two and their Crew” that we sent to a bunch of people like Walt Andrus of MUFON and Whitley Streiber, etc. (UFO was never a focus of the group. It became a catch phrase because some students designed the first posters used in 1975 with UFO in big letters. Ti and Do said no one checked this with them and that they would not have used that abbreviation, but as it became known accepted it as a media indentification).

3) 1991-2 12 hours video tape series of Do and student called “Beyond Human, The Last Call, of which I, as Sawyer was one of Do’s helpers/teleprompters.

4) May 27th 1993 with USA Today’s National and International Editions consisting of a third of a page information/ad (not selling anything) called, “‘UFO Cult’ Resurfaces with Final Offer”, (as “UFO Cult” was the name the Media gave the group in 1975-6).

5) Starting on 1/1/1994 our group who had been housed for the years since campgound living into the early 1980’s, sold everything again and outfitted ourselves to travel to once again deliver in a face to face way the information of Ti and Do. We set out in 4 groups that grew to 6, so we were in total 7 as Do and his two student helpers traveled together. We held 64 public meetings in many western U.S. cities that seemed to be hubs of thirsty souls over 9 1/2 months.

When we set out we had only 25 members, (including myself) of the group who had been there from 1975-6 though there were others in more of a half way situation that from the 1994 meetings rejoined. And there were some who still had occasional contact. (I suspect these are the 24 Elder Souls/Saints who took those human vehicles).

6) The sixth voice/trumphet went out to the world wide web to 95 UseNET newsgroups entitled for the religious tongued, “Undercover ‘Jesus’ Surfaces Before Departure” on September 25-26, 1995 and then a generic translation entitled, “’95 Statement by an E.T. Presently Incarnate”.

7) The Seventh and final offerring had several phases the first being an ahthology of all the materials published in a book entitled, “How and When ‘Heaven’s Gate’ (The Door to the Physical Kingdom Level Above Human) May Be Entered” which was put on the web as Heavensgate.com which is still maintained along with another mirrored site called Heavensgatetoo.com where the book can be downloaded freely. The second and last phase of the 7th public offerring was in syncronization with their decided exit of their physical vehicles, aka human bodies, containers, suits of clothing, horses to learn to ride/control, overcome/conquer. They decided to “lay them down” voluntarily and document it for the world to see. They wanted to make a world wide splash as opposed to exiting with no media involvment. This was in a real sense pertinent to the media and all who saw them in 1975-6 a rising from the public commons (media) grave for the UFO TWO, The Two, The Two Witnesses, Bo and Peep now Do and Ti, for They and students had been silent for 17 years while the students were doing the hard work learning to be a spoke in the wheel of a Next Level Older Member’s crew on board a spacecraft/laboratory.

Now, back to the Comet talk…

As I’ve said, they actually never thought the comet itself was a transportation vehicle that would pick them up as they said and thus evidenced on Heavensgate.com. They did definitely feel/know that it was the “sign” or “token” they had been waiting/preparing for even from 1975. And that correlates exactly with:

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Note: This is describing the event to come…”so shall …. be” forewarning those who read it that his coming as a “son of man” in other words in a new human body will have a heaven sent/displayed notification which a “comet” can certainly be considered to fulfill as it’s bright light and it’s visible to Earthlings along the ecliptic which travels the same path as the sun, moon and stars, east to west. Sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

Ti and Do actually thought the comet Kohotek was their initial arrival’s “sign” as the day near Christmas, was Kohotek’s perihelian and it had been touted to be a huge event/omen, etc. and that was December of 1973 while Ti and Do were renting a car in St. Louis, Missouri using a credit card they had been given by their first supporter in 1973, but whose husband, not a supporter reported as stolen which months later caught up with Ti and Do when they called the media in Brownsville, Texas intending to give them their story, but the reporter, being there was so much drug trafficing on the Texas/Mexico border thought was going to be a drug tip, so informed police who went to the motel where Ti and Do were staying and apprehended then and when they did a checkup on them found they unknowingly had used a now reportedly stolen credit card. And this arrest that resulted in dropped charges against Ti but 6 months in prison for Do, where he wrote “statement one” mailed to stimulate the first meeting in Los Angeles and giving him a “record” as a “thief” that was the basis of later “shooting them down” in the commons(national media) when Walter Cronkite exposed their hames and Do as a felon following an investigation as to who prompted 27 people to walk out the doors of their lives to join them to go to heaven on a UFO.

Their next huge public event coinciding with a huge bright “sign” in the heaven’s east to west was the Hale-Bopp comet.

Neverthelsss, here is the “sign”:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In this case though we have the sign first, then mourning which can be considered to be the response of many who had family and friends in the Heaven’s gate group but also for others the shock of what to them was most bizarre and disturbing to witness. Then some time later which can be quite later by human time frame, we see that human body again in the clouds of heaven, but this time not as an undercover of night but with power and brilliance (glory). This could be their last return. In other words Jesus said he’d return twice more. One time to…

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Note: The “angels” are His messenger servants disciples/students. When Jesus sent out the 70+ they were performing that task of delivering the good news of the Kingdom being at hand with Jesus’ physical presense. The United States was already he biggest new melting pot where all people’s had migrated.

…and next as a part of the harvest/judgement end of the human world as we know it.

The term “heaven” we see throughout the New Testement has mulitple levels of meaning as do most of what Jesus said and/or referred, thus to call this idea “preposterous” is ignoring/refusing to look/observe/watch what can be proof to the faithful who don’t skoff at God in saying what God can and can’t do.

It represents the overall dwellings of all members of the Kingdom of God/Heaven as it’s also inclusive of their condition that is both physically and mentally/spiritually eternal, no longer limited to cycles and planetary environments.
It represents that part of the spirit world where Souls are saved to, aka paradise, abrahams bosum, heaven.
It represents the sky.
It represents the firmament of the Sun and Moon and Stars.

Heaven nearly exclusivly used throughout the New Testement in greek origin is:

Strongs Concordance: 3772 ouranoV ouranos oo-ran-os’ perhaps from the same as oroV – oros 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):–air, heaven(-ly), sky.

Reference: 3735 oroV oros or’-os probably from an obsolete oro (to rise or “rear”; perhaps akin to airw – airo 142; compare 3733); a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): -hill, mount(-ain).

Reference: 142 airw airo ah’-ee-ro a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare nasa’ 5375) to expiate sin:–away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).
 
So yes, they were claiming that Ti and Do were the door or gate into the abodes of members of the Kingdom of God that has as it’s primary environment anywhere their tasks take them in outer space the literal heavens.

Also doesn’t the word you used, “cloak” mean to hide or disguise? So you say, “Ti and Do disguised their beliefs in scripture”. I guess you are saying they found scriptures to justify their beliefs that were not otherwise scriptural. If so, can you give me ONE example? Just ONE of the beliefs of Ti and Do and the scripture they used to substantiate that belief.

Actually, I’ll do if for you. But before I do, I’ll remind that Jesus sort of did that – took some action that it seemed he knew was simply to fulfill a scripture, i.e. riding an ass into Jerusalem, giving a speech on the temple mount (which would have qualified his blowing his trumphet…perhaps he even blew a shofar there as well, I don’t know of any record of that), and he said that Judas Iscariot’s betrayal was a fulfillment of prophecy, which he in part orchestrated and I’d bet there are more.

Ti and Do soon after meeting in Houston in mid 1972 soon believed they were both “from outer space” and were “here to bring updates and fulfill prophecy in the Bible”. They didn’t at that time in early 1973 know what prophecy, but less than a year later while studying the Bible believed they were the Two Witnesses from Rev. 11, and they believed in the word for word way in which those scriptures had been translated, that they would have their physical bodies killed and would resurrect for their enemies to witness and then ascend into a cloud with their bodies, a repeat performance they said of what Jesus did. So in a sense they took what they felt at first and believed it fit into the Rev 11 prophecy.

To their surprise when they sent out their written statement to religious and spiritual leaders which was shortly before April of 1975, they were asked to speak to a meditation group in Los Angeles, (city of (God’s)angels on the shore by the sea) and a packed house meeting and then the next day a yet bigger group, some wanted to join with them, though they coming into the meetings did not welcome the idea of followers. They thought they were to just prophesize and be killed. The scripture didn’t say anything about followers but they accepted that some wanted to, so met them at a campground, that they stayed at then and a few months later organized meetings in San Francisco and then Waldport, Oregon, the meeting I joined them from which is the meeting that brought their claims to the media. The new followers that escalted into the 70’s in number by Chicago then split up as it was hard to hide. The news broke around that time and authorities were looking for these two because some 27 people had walked out the door of their lives to join them, from attending the Waldport, Oregon meeting. One of these was the mother of two young children, who arranged to have their father take the kids as he lived less than 100 miles from them. That hit the press, a long story that I have personal awareness of, so the police got involved which is what brought the story to the press. Ti and Do at the time were told the children were abandoned which Ti and Do said they certainly would not have done.

But because of the national media and Walter Cronkite headlining the story that was covered by every major newspaper in the U.S. that linked going to heaven with boarding a spacecraft behind or inside a “cloud of light”, Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) Ti and Do felt the group needed to be broken up to smaller groups to continue holding public meetings. There were 6 or 7 groups counting 6 students that traveled with Ti and Do. By November of 1975 I was no longer with any group as the group I had been with sort of disbanned so I with the partner assigned to be with me decided to bring the message about Ti and Do to the east coast of the U.S.

It wasn’t until April that after asking God for help to know what to do next that I walked into a library where a meeting was scheduled by another group, that ended up being Ti and Do’s group and it was in Oklahoma City and just so happened to be where Ti announced that the “Harvest is closed”. This was April 21, 1976. Now, considering that Ti and Do thought they were the Two Witnesses and evidenced knowing the prophecy, wouldn’t they had timed their stated end to their prophecy to match the exact time frame in the prophecy of 1260 days (3 1/2 years)? And if they were cloaking their belief in prophecy wouldn’t they have to tell people what day they started to prophesize? The term prophecy means to publically talk about the future regarding the Kingdom of God. This would have been a very easy way to match up with prophecy. Just count back 1260 days and say this is when we began to prophesize. Well they never sought to justify this part of prophesy and as it happened they began to first talk about who they thought themselves to be in a public way officially on 1/1/1973 sometime close to midnight when they left their old lives behind in Houston, Texas. 1260 days later brings us to June 14, 1976.

When Ti made the announcement, the six other groups of students were spread out around the country and had already scheduled their next meeting so were told by Ti and Do to finish their last meetings. My groups last meeting was in Fayetteville, Arkansas. After that we were camped near Cape Girado, Missouri and some new students were supposed to rendevous with us there. Then Ti and Do told us to spend quality time, essentially every moment to individually commune with God to ask for and be ready for what was next. That was about 2 weeks prior to getting notification from Ti and Do to meet in Veedavou Campground in Medicine Bow National Forest east of Laramie, Wyoming. We all  arrived there by July 4, 1976 (by the way the Bi-centenial of the formation of the United States (melting pot – where angels had gathered souls from the 4 winds as prophesized) the location of the New Jerusalem “city of God” (Los Angeles) as well as the new Sodom (Las Vegas) Judea/Egypt, the new Babylon, the Beast that all the nations of the world are in bed with where Jesus said the Kingdom of God would be moved to a new nation where they spoke in a new tongue (paraphrasing several scriptures).

Thus this was pretty darn close to 1260 days and since Ti and Do, months before 1/1/73 set up two short lived “centers”, one in the basement of St. Thomas’s where Do was the choral/music director – whose favorite song was, “Lo How a Rose” (about growing fruit(a soul) out of the thorns of evil) but in a short time were asked to discontinue as they called it the Christian Arts Center and it was reported that they were not strictly talking Christian talk. The next center was called Knowplace. So these could be considered to be the start of their Prophectic period though I guess it depended upon what they talked about in the few meetings they had in each of those two centers.

My point is, that it may or may not have been an exact 1260 days, but it was pretty darn close.

Henry said:

Our Lord Jesus Christ warns us many times in His word that we should beware of false christs and false teachers who if it were possible would deceive the very elect. I fear that those who are involved with the heaven’s gate group are both deceiving and being deceived. For instance, where is it written in scripture that believers should commit suicide in order to attain to heaven or even that space objects such as comets would come to take our souls to heaven so that we should take our own lives to gain entry such a vehicle? Anyone who believes this must necessarily believe a different gospel than that written in the Bible. However, as Paul admonishes us we should test every spirit to see if they are of God, in like fashion as the Bereans who examined all that Paul had taught them against the word to see if those things that Paul claimed were so. The adherents of the heaven’s gate group would do well to study the scriptures daily to see if the teachings they received lined up with the Word of God.

Sawyer says:

Except you have no scriptural proof of this claim. Just “feeling” this way can easily be the instigation of a Luciferian trying to keep you from looking at it seriously. And if you were willing to actually look at what I am saying and the myrid of scriptures all over I have quoted and provided greek/hebrew backgound on and research, cross referencing work on, then perhaps you would see how exactly they really do match what Jesus said/did, but perhaps that’s what you are afraid of, so you just ignore and deny any truth to it.

So, “Where’s the Beef, Henry? Show me some scriptures that speak against anything Ti and Do actually said or did. Have you not read John chapter 14 carefully to see that Jesus actually “laid down his life, because his Father asked him to”. That’s what he said. Was he wrong as wasn’t he captured? And didn’t he tell his disciples they would have to “drink the cup” too and that some of them would be killed and all would be persecuted and not to be concerned about those who could kill the body but could not kill the soul and that the body was sacrificed, the reason for the beginning of that willingness in the camp of Moses to sacrifice what is otherwise our most valuble possession, especially when lamb meat was at a premium. Thus their laying down their lives should not really be a huge leap of faith to consider for the most devout should they genuinely feel they are physically with their recognized shepherd who they witness over many years to be pure of heart and soul – zero evidence of any wrongdoing at all, something no other so called “cult” leader or church leader can claim I’d bet. He didn’t even get the benefit of all that praise and glory and fine clothing and food and lavish surroundings and all that attention, self grandisements and self absorbsion even mixed with a certain amount of asceticism that the Luciferians love to tout as holiness used to create followers by.

Henry said:

Jesus Christ came into this world to die for our sins so that through Him – by believing in Him and His gospel message we might be saved and inherit eternal life. Paul writing to Titus said:

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Rather than committing suicide to accelerate our journey to heaven we are to earnestly continue in the blessed hope, waiting for the appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Moreover, when we die though we be in Christ we do not instantly go to heaven. Rather we remain asleep until the great and terrible day of the Lord when Jesus shall descend from heaven to gather the dead and the living who are in Him to Himself. See the following verses:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:16-18)

The heaven’s gate group however believes there is actually a different way to get to heaven – mass suicide. To them what is written here in the Word is not true but rather what their teachers tell them is what they believe to be the truth. However you cannot have it both ways – it is either you believe the Word of God as written in the Bible or you make it up as you go along or follow those who make it up as they go along.

Sawyer’s response:
No, this is a total misrepresentation.

No, suicide isn’t at all Ti and Do’s idea as the way to get to heaven but the fact is, for those that want to give ALL of themselves to the Kingdom of God, when it’s presented by a genuine member from the Kingdom of God, that only an individual can determine for themselves, then by whatever means, death of the physical body is required. I bet I could find at least 12 things Jesus said that directly indicated loss of one’s physical body “for the Kingdom of Heaven’s/God’s sake was part of the required formula.

However, it’s only applicable when the death is because the student/disciple believes with all their heart that they are with the real deal, a member of the Kingdom of God, in this case Two members in a female and male body named Ti and Do. AND the much bigger part of the contract is that the student must PROVE to the teacher they are wanting to go with them more than anything else in the entire human and geographical world and this can take years for the teacher to be persuaded to permit. It’s impossible to know how much effort both Ti and Do put into each student UNLESS you witnessed it or are willing to believe a witness like myself who has proved over years has nothing to gain by making it up. If I were to make something up, which would be if I wanted to try to make money or become more popular to have followers, I could easily tweek a few difficult to swallow ideas and walla I’d have a new religion. But that would be blasphemy against Ti and Do to not tell the whole truth as I experienced it.
 
Now, of course for someone who never had anything to do with Ti and Do, they would be expected to “test their goods” – examine their fruit to determine what tree it comes from. But most of the time that’s the last thing anyone cares to do. It’s much easier to just disqualify Ti and Do and move on. So in a sense Henry’s posting here is a breath of fresh air as at least he has kept the door open somewhat and has attempted to state the reasons for his belief that Ti and Do are heretics, which would make me one as well.

However, Henry’s attempt here is without any depth as to just throw out scriptures that we think prove Ti and Do can’t be the two witnesses/ “second” coming of Jesus is next to meaningless if we don’t have the broadest understanding of what Jesus actually said in non-religisized tongues, aka language/terms. It’s understandable that if someone like Henry has not dug into the scriptures himself to try to see what the translators decided to do with each word then of course he’s not going to see much more, if any more than the various translators saw. I always cheer when I see a Christian demonstrating the Greek and/or Hebrew roots to an English word as it shows more than a casual thirst to know what was said. And this of course is very hard mental work to bascially check and consider an alternate definition for a word or phrase but it cues one into every word. However all too often what the Christians who try to retranslate do is focus on scriptures that have little to no contravesy when there are dozens no one wants to touch as they are considered extreme thinking OR they find some meaning they can use to justify what they don’t want to otherwise believe. For instance, the “eye of the needle”. I don’t doubt that at some point that arch that camel’s need to kneel down to get under could have been called the “eye of the needle”, before or after jesus gave that analogy that:

Mar 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mar 10:20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Mar 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
Mar 10:23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

If there was an arch that was called the eye of a needle that Jesus was referring, I’d bet a camel never was able to get through it but the way many Christians use it, it’s as if, it was hard for them to get though it but not impossible, leaving the door open wide to think having great possessions is even a bounty of a life filled with godliness that god blesses us with things. Talk about lies. This is from you know who, the “Father of lies”. The reason the rich can’t make it is because they will rely on their money when they have certain tests that they need to look to God to help them solve. If someone did join with Jesus and kept their money with them, they would have been kicked out for doing so as what we don’t know is that Jesus ran a tight ship financially. He had a “purser” that doled out the money for various needs. So he wasn’t a begger either. But this isn’t meant for us so much now when there is no member of the Kingdom of God physically present, though that too can be an excuse to just treat our money the same as everyone else mostly does, often hording for a rainy day or retirement while people all around don’t even eat that well or have a warm dry place to rest. I don’t tell people what to do with their money as that’s not my place to say. The rule we were given by Jesus was to “love our neighbor as ourselves” so a strict application of that might look like, a 50/50 split – I’d give 50% of my income to others and keep 50% for myself. Imagine if everyone did that. There would be noone homeless or hungry or without someone to help them. Of course when we entangle ourselves into debt so many of us don’t have anything to give away really.

But the point to these scriptures is that when the Lord is putting out the trumphet call and you hear it, then it’s time to hit the deck running in his direction or not.

At this time, the trumphets have all but sounded, though the last one they sounded is still reverberating all around the globe because of how loud a blast it was which was deliberate so the running to the Lord that we can do now is to accept their latest representatives and tell others about them and accept the ramifications. No groups to belong to, no meetings to attend, no tapes or cd’s or dvd’s to buy, no new practices or techniques to learn and master and then peddle to others as spiritual development. Just plain and simple telling what they said and did and that will probably eventually get us killed as we have not yet seen the 4th horseman of the apocolypse.

Actually contrary to what Henry said, Ti and Do didn’t talk very much about scripture and when they did there was no in depth analysis. What I am sharing in these blogs and on my sites is what I’ve come to understand from my constant in depth analysis because I want to know more about what Jesus meant and intended, which in so doing I learn about the outright mistakes made by many translators.

Henry says I or they are making up what’s in the Bible as I(we) go along, another unfounded accusation amidst many the ill informed use to avoid finding out what they don’t know when they want to think of themselves as knowledgeable and especially when others are reading/listening to what they say. The same thing happens with humans in any field. They become entrenched in what floats their boat, so don’t want to rock that boat so automatically disqualify something new.

So Henry, give me one scriptural interpreation that you think I “made up” and I will show you how I spent many hours with the greek/hebrew/aramaic to arrive at the most likley meanings. Of course I can make misakes but that’s why I cross reference a great deal.

Henry said:

The heaven’s gate group believes in two characters called Ti and Do who they claim are Jesus and God and at the same time the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. The first question we need to ask here is whether God can send witnesses who contradict His very word. Let us first of all briefly examine whether these two characters could actually be God and Jesus. Jesus came into this world a messenger of the Father to bring good news to the lost. Jesus however told us that He is going back but will come again to gather those that are His to himself (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12).

Sawyer says:

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Here Jesus is saying the “Son of Man” is coming. We often take word meanings for granted. Some think this was Jesus just using a phrase from an Old Testement prophet and it was used by Ezekiel and Daniel and in Psalms but, the big point here is what that phrase meant to Jesus.

man = greek from Strongs concordance 444 anqrwpoV anthropos anth’-ro-pos from anhr – aner 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:–certain, man.
reference:435 anhr aner an’-ayr a primary word (compare 444); a man (properly as an individual male):–fellow, husband, man, sir.
 
son = greek from Strongs concordance 5207 uioV huios hwee-os’ apparently a primary word; a “son” (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figuratively, kinship:–child, foal, son.
 
of = greek from strongs concordance 5259 upo hupo hoop-o’ a primary preposition; under, i.e. (with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through); (with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)):–among, by, from, in, of, under, with. In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately.
 
man = greek from Strongs concordance 444 anqrwpoV anthropos anth’-ro-pos from anhr – aner 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:–certain, man.
reference:435 anhr aner an’-ayr a primary word (compare 444); a man (properly as an individual male):–fellow, husband, man, sir.
 
Thus in longhand including the full range of meanings Jesus was for all intents and purposes saying he was a male child, foal, son, kin of/under/by human being.

Can you dispute these essential meanings to what Jesus said he would return as a human being again. Here is a confirmation:

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

So He will come in like manner as you have seen him go. What was that like manner? “he was taken up and a cloud received him out of their sight.

But perhaps we don’t know the authority of who these are: “two men stood by them in light/bright/brilliant apparel” as they don’t say any more about them.

white = 3022 leukos {lyoo-kos’} from luke (“light”); TDNT – 4:241,530; adj AV – white 25; 25 1) light, bright, brilliant

Here is another strong collaboration in the way Moses said the next coming would be and if Moses was also God the Father’s servant, would there be a strong likihood that his saying how they’d see the next coming:

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

From a Bible dictionary: Son of Man = In the New Testament it is used forty-three times as a distinctive title of the Saviour. In the Old Testament it is used only in Ps. 80:17 and Dan. 7:13 with this application. It denotes the true humanity of our Lord. He had a true body (Heb. 2:14; Luke 24:39) and a rational soul. He was perfect man.

Thus the reference to his coming is in human flesh, correct, not as a spirit. So the question now is how will we experience his coming and will it be everyone on the planet and if so how will it be interpreted. Will everyone know it’s Jesus. Will he come with the same flesh he had before?

The evidence is that He certainly will not use the same name for if he was planning on using the same name why wouldn’t he have said, “I will come back…”. No, what he says is a human being will come back with a name other than Jesus because we are not to believe anyone who comes “in my name”

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mark 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Now there are two conditions he mentions here. Many shall come “in my name”, that’s the name he had which was “Jesus” but it’s those that use that name and also say they are Christ, so we can discount those humans who are born with the name, Jesus but who don’t claim to be Christ.

Did anyone come saying they were Jesus and directly or indirectly infer they were Christ, the annointed one?

Yes, absolutely and right on the heals of Jesus departure:

First account:

Act 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Act 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Second Account:

Act 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
Act 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Note: as we can see the stories are mixed up with those with him on the one hand “hearing a voice” and then on the other hand “heard not the voice of him that spake to me” (I might guess it possible that as there were more than one men accompanying him, one could have heard it and the other not).

Third account:

Act 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

So yes, false christs, false prophets whom he said would be in “sheeps clothing” in other words appear to be sheep which no other group can that apply to than those who wrap themselves in belief in Jesus and count themselves his elect than many Christians. That is sheeps clothing, so the false prophets will basically be Christian preachers and today that would include bloggers, though each must be tested by what they actually say to determine if they are saying things that are untrue/false.

Henry said:
 
Jesus knew however that when He left many false Christ would arise after Him to lead the people astray so He gave the desciples the signs to look for of His coming so that we are not deceived. We read for example:

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt 24:24-27)

Sawyer says:

So those that are looking for him, if they are told to go here or there, they will know not to find Jesus or the human being who is not named Jesus there.

Note: Regarding Ti and Do. No one is saying you can go find them, Father and Son anywhere and especially now as they have left their physcial bodies. And when they were here, on the one time period of 3 1/2 years almost to the day perhaps, no one knew where they were at any given moment until a poster showed up advertising a meeting. Thus there was never a time they had set up shop somewhere to gather people to them. In fact many looked for them and could not find them as they had no one place to lay their heads.

So now a big clue, I’ll repeat:

Mt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

“AS lightning”

As = greek strongs 5618 wsper hosper hoce’-per from wV – hos 5613 and per – per 4007; just as, i.e. exactly like:–(even, like) as.
 
So it might be clearer to say:

“Just as lightning…” It’s not saying it is lightning. It’s saying it’s “as” or “just as” which means alike to in the way in which it is seen/experienced.

So lets really delve into this word used here as Lightning because of how many people are banking on this being the key description of Jesus return:

lightning = 796 astraph astrape as-trap-ay’ from astraptw – astrapto 797; lightning; by analogy, glare:–lightning, bright shining.
reference: 797 astraptw astrapto as-trap’-to probably from asthr – aster 792; to flash as lightning:–lighten, shine.
Reference: 792 asthr aster as-tare’ probably from the base of strwnnumi – stronnumi 4766; a star (as strown over the sky), literally or figuratively:–star.
Reference:4766 strwnnumi stronnumi strone’-noo-mee, stronnuo strone-noo’-o, prolongation from a still simpler stroo stro’-o, (used only as an alternate in certain tenses) (probably akin to stereoV – stereos 4731 through the idea of positing); to “strew,” i.e. spread (as a carpet or couch):–make bed, furnish, spread, strew.
Reference: 4731 stereoV stereos ster-eh-os’ from isthmi – histemi 2476; stiff, i.e. solid, stable (literally or figuratively):–stedfast, strong, sure.
2476 isthmi histemi his’-tay-mee a prolonged form of a primary stao stah’-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively):–abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare tiqhmi – tithemi 5087.
 
Here is a sentence comprised of the most well rounded definition I can come up with based on all the Strongs references to what the word meant.

lightning = lightning, bright and shining/flashing, a star that is strown, strewn or spread, even carpeting in a stiff, strong, stedfast way as to stand and abide, bring, continue, covenant, establish something over the sky.

This starts in the east and shines to the west.

So a bright star like object that spreads itself out over the area east to west it compasses.

Could that be a comet? After all, every eye can see that, right! It doesn’t say the human being will be hanging out of it or riding on top of it. The tail of a comet “spreads” and it’s interesting the play on words in the greek as we see many times the great word is very close to the english word. In this case I’m referring to Stereo in greek that to english means TWO. HaleBopp had two tails. Ti and Do were TWO (witnesses).

Henry said:

In spite of these clear warnings given by Jesus Himself that we should not go after another who is already on earth and claiming to be Him but rather to look for His appearing as the lighting flashes from East to West the heaven’s gate group rejects these very words. They claim that Jesus does not need to appear in this way but that His coming is phased and it is up to us to be able to recognize if when he is here. To reject Jesus’ words here and to say that Ti and Do are God and Jesus incarnate is nothing but a lie in the face of the Bible. Whom do we trust? The Bible, the revealed word of God or do we trust another who contradicts this very word?

Sawyer says:

Ti and Do and students are not on Earth now so I’m in no way telling you by considering who they are, to go someplace to find them, so will you please cancel out that accusation. They didn’t claim to be Jesus. They said Jesus was the name of the body, what they called a vehicle and that vehicle was not coming back. They said in 1975 publically that they were “from the same family as Jesus and his Father” so cancel out the second accusation in that paragraph too. No it didn’t say in this scripture “Jesus would appear as lightning”, It said “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be”. In other word his coming would be LIKE, or AS what is described. Even so, that’s his “coming”. If someone comes to visit you, do you automatically see how they arrive. No, you have to watch for them to see them and watching for them in the case of Jesus means watching for the “signs of the Son of Man”, which are in what he SAYS and DOES that will demonstrate full consistancy with what He said and did before, but in new “tongues” but that will come to us via some public announcement, the media, and will of course be mostly hated by all those that don’t have any of his Holy Spirit in them.

But say He comes in some type of godly spacecraft and he was inside it. Would it not fulfill this prophecy for him to come though no one could actually see what he physcially looked like as he was inside the spacecraft, thus another false assumption.

Regarding what I said about his coming being phased or in stages. I say that because of other scritures that say he will come as a thief, come as a “son of man” again but not named “jesus” so it has to be a mystery given there are billions of “sons of human”. Will he be glowing bright white light? Is that how we will know him. If so, how come he didn’t come what way any other time. Yet this is apparantly the “end time”, the “Last Day” or maybe that doesn’t seem to be so to you which would explain some of your blatent refusal and critical uninformed strong opinions/condemnations/accusations.

It’s just that these indicators of his return don’t seem to be describing just one major event and it is probably futile to try to demonstrate that to someone who is set against considering it, but you keep engaging me so I’ll keep responding.

And yes it is up to us to recognize him in his new human clothing as he told us to observe and keep oil in our lamps to be able to see when he comes. He said to Watch! If it’s going to be that obvious entirely like lightning then what’s so hard about watching observing? You said the idea that Ti and Do are members of the Kingdom of God serving as Father and Son is a lie, but have not shown anything I can’t easily with many proves shoot down in your reasoning and you cited no scriptures that disproves that it could very well be them. I know well this is very tough. Many are very programmed to not accept anything real as the return of Jesus. It’s just like politics and especially now. Not that I’m into Obama in any way, but the fact is very clear that anything he does is and will be met with great opposition just for the sake of opposition, though there will always be a myrid of justifications because no one in his oppostion wants him to get any credit for changing anything for the better as it would then cost them their next election. It’s all exceedingly broken but that is just one of the many Luciferian strategies to program humans with every form of opposition to anyone’s recognition of the Kingdom of God.

You trust the Bible you say, but the evidence in many of our conversations is that you don’t understand it’s words very well, yet you trust your misunderstanding enough to condemn and call a liar someone who does provide a great deal of detail scriptural and commonsensical contextual understanding of scripture using well documented Greek to English dictionaries. Again what is the contradiction you speak of? A contradiction as I understand the definition is a juxtaposed view and negates what we say we think or believe, and when we should know we are doing that, then we should be willing to admit our hypocrisy. I haven’t heard you site the contradictions. Just because you say it doesn’t make it so except for those in your corner of the ring who want to cheer you on no matter the value of what you say.

Henry said:

Could these two therefore be the Two Witnesses of God – not if they contradict the very word of God they cannot be. More importantly they do not fit into neither the prophesy nor the criteria to fulfill the prophesy surrounding the ministry of the Two Witnesses.

Sawyer says:

I agreed that they don’t fit if one just looks at the King James Translation of Greek to English and takes things metaphorical as strictly literal, though I do believe and have faith that everythng the Kingdom of God provides us has a literal application and practical way to understand it. I know well there are some Christians that ONLY use the King James and would say changing even one word in the translation is sacreligious and herectical. But I’m not the one that gives a bunch of ways to interpret apo-kteino. In some places in Revelations it’s “slay” and in other places it’s “murder” and in others “kill” and in it’s roots, “kill in ANY WAY, as the contraction indicates a haulting, or stopping as the core meaning. I’m not making that up. It was interesting that in your previous post that we began this back and forth, the very commment I posted that translated much of Rev. 11, you failed at that time to approve while saying that you were all for talking scripture.

Henry said:

The Bible makes clear to us that the Two Witnesses complete their ministry during the opening of the 7th Seal at a time when the 5th angel (of the seven having the seven trumpets and the last seven plagues to judge the earth) sounded. These events occur after the 6th seal when the heavens were opened and when Jesus gathers those that are His to Himself. We know this because in Revelations 9 the 5th angel sounded and released the angel of the bottomless pit which I believe is the same beast of the bottomless bit which made war with the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11 and killed them following the end of their ministry.

Sawyer says:

You stated inaccuratly re: the “bottomless pit” statements being the “same”.

“Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.”
 
And here is the Rev. 11 scripture you said was the same reference:

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill(greek apokteino = also means to stop/hault, kill in ANY WAY) them.

In the Rev. 9 example there is no mention of a “beast coming out of the bottomless pit”, though I would venture to say it may be of the same affect, as it appears to be some type of weapon of war which would be part of the beastial empire, whereas in Rev. 11 it’s said as a beast though that beast needs to be personified somehow to do a killing.

overcome = 3528 nikaw nikao nik-ah’-o
 from nikh – nike 3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):–conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.
3529 nikh nike nee’-kay
 apparently a primary word; conquest (abstractly), i.e. (figuratively) the means of success:–victory.

Side note: Do and crew wore “Nike” tennis shoes to their laying down of their physical bodies event. The moto of Nike is “Do it” which sounds like Do (as in the name of Ti and Do, so Doe it – do it like Do. “Thy will be Done” what every student must embrace to convince the Older Member of their sincerity. This was no Jim Jones event by far. That was a facsimili, the only way a Luciferian can do, which is why it was such an confused, mixed up, deceitful and manipulative horrific event that included children that could never have decided to take that action and they were prodded and pushed and even threatened with death by gunshot if they didn’t go along. Some were hunted down by Jim Jones henchmen. Why did they have armed guards anyway. Perhaps that was a dangerous area to live in, thus justified having some weapons but as they were under investigation and Jim Jones had already been accused of crimes, to him he was primed by Luciferians to stage such an event. Also on this side note that probably had nothing to do with their Nike choice. The word Overcome in Greek is rooted in the word, nike:
3529 nikh nike nee’-kay
 apparently a primary word; conquest (abstractly), i.e. (figuratively) the means of success:–victory.

I know this seems like a big stretch but though this is not a comical event by any means and especially to those who still counted these 38 their loved ones, but one of the ways the Kingdom of God does sort of play, is to line up language development in such a way as to have what seems like coincidental spellings and meanings that hold over into another language. After all, all the languages have the same root for each civilization and the Next Level uses language as a way to sort Spirits/Souls into grades in the overall school. Those that know how lacking languages all come to be, are not often convinced of anything by words alone and they often seek the simple, practical minded, even common sense ways of seeing any situation which in the case of history requires some digging to the origins of the words used and their context, both physically and mentally.

These 38 students had overcome their humanness by voluntarily and gladly exiting their human bodies with their Older Member. They had accumulated enough of the mind from their Older Member’s Ti and Do to KNOW laying down their body would not result in the death of their essence, the Soul gifted to them that they strove to fill with only Next Level mind, in seeking to do everything their Older Member gave them to do, which is how the Older Member knows they are free from the rebelliousness of the Luciferians. These students had become “as little children” in their trust of Do though to the world who can not or do not want to know Do’s voice, it was a bizarre cult manipulation and a tragedy. Not all the loved ones actually saw it like that. Sure most hurt from their loss of someone they loved but some knew this was what their loved ones wanted and had actually worked to stay a part of. It’s of course harder for the loved ones of those that were only in the group 3-4 years and in one case less than a year. Ti and Do told us as we walked out the doors of our lives in 1975 that the loved ones we left behind would receive extra help to deal with our leaving them behind. Even so, I suspect those have to accept that help to benefit from it and it may never translate as help to their physical body/mind. They must reach for that help and when it comes embrace it.

But there were many humans who when they observed that event or read about it, knew there was something very, very different about this group that seperated them from anything else they had heard about that entailed anything that sounded like religious fanaticism. I know this as I’ve met people who have told me that. It doesn’t mean they are pursuing the basis of such a feeling but it may be an indicator of who some of the 144,000 true overcomers are, those that were given Souls during the generations since the late 1940’s.

But regarding the “beast ascending from the pit” example used, If we weren’t so engadged in proving/disproving these implications I wouldn’t harp on this difference but it’s far too easy to make very large assumptions, even thinking they are educated choices and then base what else we think, say and do on the initial erroneous state of mind.

The bottom line is that the Kingdom of God can allow as many things to come out of what is depicted here as the bottomless pit as they want. Smoke ascending from it sounds to me like a volcano. How do we know during the previous civilization on Earth’s end, saying for instance as it’s reported in certain mythologies and the story of Atlantis that may have some accurate points in it as most things do, the humans then did have significant technological development, so if they followed the course human governments and private corporations are executing as we speak and have been in earnest since at least the Reagan years, they are building underground facilities at an alarming pace, so when the Next Level comes for one last time that will not be in an “undercover” way, by incarnating into prepared human vehicles, as these governments will not be able to fight against them they will run and hide in the rocks and dens as it says in revelations and in so doing sort of entomb themselves in their dungeon for the next 1000 years. Then the Next Level can redo the surface as they orchestrate to where these humans and of course human equivilent Luciferian space aliens can not escape. That might be as easy as putting an ocean at their entrances. The humans no doubt have built many of these underground cities to withstand flooding but an ocean is another story. Yet another scenrio is to have a glacier construct and/or move mountains worth of rocks over their entrances or in some cases an entrance could be sealed with lave flows that then cool and harden or they could take a large meteor or asteroid and specifically aim it to hit the earth at each entrance which is composed of diamond materials that then are hit again to drive them deep so that no human tools to try to dig out are possible. What we do know is that the Next Level certainly has ways to seal up those they want to allow to stay alive for a while, so they can be brought back again for a new stage in the next harvest to be advasarial so students will have the appropriate challenge to grow their mind muscle from.

While I’m at it, in the next few key verses (that by the way are designed in such a way as to be useful to be accurate applicable at more than one time. For instance the first prophecy is the actual Two Christs, but then when they leave, those remnant that believes they were the rep and ask them for service then will be witnessing to these Two and thus could be called the TWO Witnesses all over again and the Kingdom of God can give these student workers the powers outlined just as the Father did to the Jesus disciples after Jesus left.:

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall (lie in) the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Note: Here “dead bodies” is treated as one greek word, ptoma which directly means, a ruin, fall, failure, defeat) and then the words, “shall lie” were entirely added to I suppose round out their interpretation in line with Kill and dead.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

dead bodies = greek: 4430 ptwma ptoma pto’-mah
 from the alternate of piptw – pipto 4098; a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion):–dead body, carcase, corpse.
4098 piptw pipto pip’-to,
 peto pet’-o; (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to petomai – petomai 4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally or figuratively):–fail, fall (down), light on.
4072 petomai petomai pet’-om-ahee,
 petaomai pet-ah’-om-ahee, or contracted ptaomai ptah’-om-ahee middle voice of a primary verb; to fly:–fly(-ing).
4431 ptwsiV ptosis pto’-sis
 from the alternate of piptw – pipto 4098; a crash, i.e. downfall (literally or figuratively):–fall.

There are clues here that suggest this is no an ordinary killing/stoppage of these two. As how are nations going to see their dead bodies. Logic would say, there was a media involved. Thus a televised large meeting could have been a possability. Ti and Do told us to be on the lookout for a large meeting advertised as television cameras are certainly not going to come to the small meetings we held unless there was already a great deal of publicity surrounding the event.

Then another point…these cameras are going to be trained on these dead bodies for 3 1/2 days? Even if that wasn’t non stop wouldn’t authorities have a hard time with allowing that in a public place. When does a dead body begin to smell. Now if it was set up ahead of time as an event they needed to plan for, like for a magic trick, one could understand it. They could put the bodies into some type of enclosure that was see through, like a glass coffin for instance so when they awoke they could simply open the door, but this would take cooperation and what would be the motive for such cooperation unless they were paid to cooperate. But these Two witnesses are dressed in sackcloth which is the clothing of either a poor person or the clothing of a mourner, if that was the picture John was trying to relay so their having funds to pay for cooperation seems unlikley and as with Jesus, he certainly didn’t seem to be interested in nor holding of monetary wealth as that was even against his nature and task to be identified with.

It’s interesting that Ti and Do never talked with us about these other interpretations. When they cancelled having public meetings with Ti saying “the harvest is over” on April 21, 1976, they later said “the demonstration” (as they called being killed and resurrected) “was cancelled because the students weren’t ready to leave” and then later said that they felt the mission “shot down/killed” when Walter Cronkite announced their human names and said they had some criminal record on national TV. You would think, when they were not being public anymore and when it seemed less likly that anyone would “kill” them, their students would have thought they were charlatans for saying they would be killed. They did expect such, though they never cherished the idea. And some early students no doubt did leave in part because that didn’t pan out as they initially said, but their core students, it didn’t phase as they were not engaged because of the scriptural prophecy. They just knew their voices. That was my response. It was after leaving them and then after their “exit” in 1997 and my reengaging my application to be in their service that I began to examine every word of that and other prophecies. All along, though they didn’t want believers to leave their following, they didn’t hesitate to deliver information or foster events they felt were “instruction” from their unseen helpers, Ti’s Heavenly Father and/or the angels assigned to assist them, that they knew would test many of the students resolve to stay the course. I have many very concrete examples of how they were unlike any other group in this and many other regards, traditional or cultish.

I don’t disbelieve that two references to the Bottomless pit have their similarities. For instance maybe the US drones are these “locusts”. The beast is personified in governments as governments are never, no matter what they say servants of the Kingdom of God, individual are, if they choose to be. And since most humans are under the influence of Luciferian programming and misinformation, deceit in many ways and have constant governmental waring they could certainly be considered to have been let out, “the luciferians who stimulate this human behaviour” from the bottomless pit. I could be all wrong about the locusts identify but I doubt they are literal insects in this example.

Now the other aspect that is noteworthy to your scriptural backed claims against Ti and Do being the Two Witnesses because you say, “Jesus gathers those that are His to Himself”.

Perhaps you are referring to this scripture that is following the opening of the 5th seal:

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

…and this is followed by what appears to be one of a number of depictions of the “last day”, as it says in 6:17 “great day of his wrath” that may be a very short time and may for us extend over some years. That might depend on the time needed for the 144,000 to be sealed. The Kingdom of God knows who they are but they each need to find a human vehicle/body that is enough of a thirsty seeker/observer/watcher to want to become a student in the next Next Level Classroom that begins when they decide to give their allegience to Ti and Do (which will always be in degrees but degrees that will grow because there is no resting on laurals):

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

or you might be referring to the sealing of the 144,000 and their being harvested “dieing in Christ” as depicted here:

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

I say the song is Ti Do. They chose the identity of musical notes, perhaps to fulfill prophecy as I’ve pointed out Jesus did at times though they do so in their own way according to what they feel is their instruction from their Older Members, the way it always works with younger members looking to older members, not at all wanting to be see as the head honcho with all the power and control.

But for the record another song that only those who are willing to believe in Ti and Do will sing that we did sing in the classroom, individually whenever we wanted to ourselves as a type of prayer, petition for help and service:

Help me have no human ways
No thoughts of self
No faults to see
only the ways of space

Now I know my heart is fast
In my Father’s path at last
Only the Ways of Space
Only the ways of spa-ace

(This is sung to the melody of the song by Bach, entitled, “Jesus, Meine Freund”)

And here is one of the many depictions of the standards to be “born of spirit/soul” that we must do while taking control of an assigned by God human flesh body:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins(means=have ceased having sex). These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile(deceit): for they are without fault before the throne of God.

OR maybe you were referring to:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude(many people), which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

and…

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation(pressure), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

There are quite a few examples of those who find favour with the Lord and Lamb, Father and Son(Jesus), who overcame their humanness keeping the commandments of the Father/Lord God and Son/Jesus Son/Moses a big part of which is keeping their vehicle’s mind clear of discarnate(dead human) evil(trouble making human behavioral/mammalian, carnal level/strata/condition/programmed) influences aka spirits/ghosts.

Then yes the Rev. chapter 11 prophecy of the Two witnesses takes place following the 7th seal that instigate a silent period in Heaven. The problem with looking at all this as a precise order in terms of time is that the entire sequences are like watching a movie with big sections that are out of time or are complete overviews from a particular perspective.

However, in general the first appearance of the 7 angles you know have 7 trumphets and it’s during the sounding of the 6th trumphet that the Two Witnesses are depicted which coordinates with the 2nd woe. Thus if we are looking for the events depicted in the first 6 angels with trumphets to occur in a way we can be certain took place, then that is putting a stumbling block in front of yourself and not opening your eyes to the larger picture. For instance when you examine the 7 angels who have vials to pour onto the earth and people with the mark of the beast it’s very, very interesting that there is no trumpets there, no prior announcements. The announcements already took place before that time and that time is after the Two Witnesses have exited into the Heavens from whence they came.

In other words the entire start of Revelations is geared to announcing, declaring, crying out, sounding the trumphet, prophesizing, waring with the two edged sword of the Father and Lamb’s tongue. And it’s not until after the first harvest, those who are given white robes and are with the lamb around his throne that the next phase kicks in that will include the most tribulation in the area of the world where the Next Level had been physically most active. And this would be what some see as the pretrib rapture – the rising from the ashes to a new life for the cream of the crop, those who gave, their all, washed their robes (bodies of human mammalian ways sufficently), and thus overcame and followed the lamb wherever he went and had no guile, anger or deceit, were like children in their trust, had bonded sufficiently with their assigned Older Member.

Then all who remain get the chance to make sense out of all this and decide (the judgement time) whether they will give their overall allegience to Ti and Do, who no longer have a physical presense so can’t be worshipped except by seeking to adapt their ways to themselves or not. If not then there is no Next Level live in them and they just take their evolutionary course of perishing while some are preserved for the start of the next civilization went these remnant souls who were “saved” are brought back for their next “trimester” of school/birth.

However, I have attempted to address all this in detail:

I have studied the related scriptures re: the 6th and 7th seal, 5th angel and two witnesses as you suggest show that the two witnesses have not yet come, as well as all the contextual scriptures around these. And I have looked at others have said about these and I am well aware of the many views, some of which declare that the Book of Revelations as a whole does not fit into a strict chronological depiction of God’s interactions with the Earth/Humans in Their promised return and the Last “Judgement” Day. However, as you may know there is a chronology of events essentially surrounding the 7 seals, 7 angels with 7 trumphets and later with 7 vials, mingled with the 3 woes, the 4 horns, 4 angels with the 4 winds, 7 spirits/eyes over the 7 churches, etc. However, it is also evident that there are types of seeming repetitions of events. We must pay special attention to the fact that John is being shown these things that all pertain to the future, though reference the past, as with the first three chapters that speak directly to each of the then existing 7 churches whom he is instructed to send what he is being given to.

Then there are the “players” so to speak to consider, the Lord who sits on the throne who evidences being the Lord/God the Father, the Lamb, “Son of Man”, Jesus, The four living beings that are labeled with the english word, “beast” which is a big mistake as it’s not the same word as the beast from the bottomless pit, the former working for the Kingdom of God and the later reflecting wild beastial acting humans however organized into governments, etc. Then there are the 24 elders that were born into the Kingdom and have their own “seats” around the throne which brings to mind Jesus saying to his close disciples, (paraphrased), “in my Father’s house there are many dwelling places…I will go to prepare a place (seat/task) for each of you”. Then there are those who died apparantly giving their personal testimony of their experience with Jesus and those who are still “giving their lives, physically and mentally” to God the Lamb that will result in their dying “in Christ”. Then there are those who are “sealed” which is also a term called being “marked” as both the Kingdom of God and the Human Beasts have a way to mark their own. The entire “jugdgement time” is based on who we each decide to give our allegience to, God vs Mammon, which is to the Kingdom of God through their representatives sent to us vs to Humans which includes the human equivilent Space aliens that are often depicted as “birds” (flying dragon/(even reptilian) serpents/hissers – deceiving manipulators of the truth about the Kingdom of God). And finally there are the false prophet players who are those that appear to be prophets but are wolves in sheeps clothing and this is very clearly all who are the leaders and speakers preachers, evangelically active prostelitizing humans that most often are associated with any number of spiritual and/or religious organizations (sects/cults).

Not having the ability to see the actual manuscript chunks and fragments that were analysed and formed into “books” of the Bible and in particular the Book of Revelations, I have no way beyond evaluating each part whether the order given us is the order of these visions/dreams as they were received by John as I doubt he got all 22 chapters all in one experience.

The Book actually seems to clearly demonstrate various vantage points, even each with their own overview that has a start and a finish. For instance chapter’s 1, 2, 3 addressing the current groups of believers in Jesus (at the time John was still alive in a physical human body), 4 and 5 introducing “players” on the Kingdom of God side and related to the Book of Life, 6 and 7 (chronology of events starting with the Lamb (white horse and rider) but including overall overview), 8,9, and 10 the 7 angels with trumphets, 11 the Two Witnesses(Christs) prophecy arrival and departure, 12 an entire overview, 13 a focus on the human beast like organizations, 14 the overall harvests of overcomers, the cutting of the wheat which we know takes place after the weeds have been removed (according to Jesus in his illustration of the Wheat and the Tares growing together), 15 and 16 the angels/events of the 7 angels with vials (the physical execution of the events depicted by the angels with sounding trumphets), 17 and 18 the downfall of Babylon (the new one), 19 details in the war for souls, 20 the actual judgement of the dragon and false prophets and all those not in the book of life, 21 and 22 the Temple of God the Father and Son physcially with those who graduated and were saved for a future graduation opportunity and a new heaven (not talking about the abode of members of the Kingdom of God) and new (reconditioned) Earth will all the weeds/tares removed/recycled.

But before a detailed analysis of the Seven Angels with trumphets and later with vials parts of Revelations, I’ll correct what you said.

The only references within Chapter 11 that contains the Two Witnesses prophecy referring to the “angel sounding (their trumphet)” are here:

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As this is saying the “second woe is past, and the two witnesses prophecy is right before this, I think it fairly safe to conclude the two witnesses were related to the second woe that just past and the 6th angel’s sounding since the 7th and last sounds AFTER the two witnesses came and exited.

And with this introduction here is my 7 angels overview, a lengthy work that I will publish seperatly from this post: I apologize that there is some repetition here with what I have just written about. It still needs lots of work but there is a ton of information here that anyone who has interest in the Bible should be able to gleen something from even if they don’t end up believing in Ti and Do.

* seven 7 angels with seven 7 trumphets:

Note these 7 angels spoken of in Rev. 8-11 all have trumphets and sound the voices of their trumphets. In other words they communicate, having information to deliver. This isn’t reflective of magic, except in the way humans don’t understand the mechanics these depictions actually represent. The term “angels” are not winged cherubs. They are depicted with wings because they are said to “fly” through the sky(heavens) but before there were flying forms of transportation, birds and insects were the only evidence of any ability of something living to fly thus these “angels” were illustrated by artists with “wings”. (eg “Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,…”)

It is of special note that these 7 Angels are not depicted as flying. A flying angel if it was able to be seen by humans with or without technology would usually appear with a “natural disguise” like a cloud or asteriod or meteor or comet or star. I am aware that the Kingdom of God can show us whatever they want to show us and They may at times show some one thing while others another.

An angel in the Greek and Hebrew had the same meaning:

Angel = Greek: 32 aggelos {ang’-el-os} from aggello [probably derived from 71, cf 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

Angel = Hebrew: 04397 mal’ak {mal-awk’} from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; TWOT – 1068a; n m AV – angel 111, messenger 98, ambassadors 4, variant 1; 214, a messenger, representative

Thus these 7 angels are simply communicating, the method of which isn’t indicated clearly except in saying they are sounding their trumphet.

A trumphet is mechanism to make an announcement, the reason the early Jews, even many to date have in their brains that the messiah would come blowing a shofar, a lambs horn on the Jerusalem Temple mount. It’s a public way of making a loud announcement. What is being announced is the messenger’s VOICE.

Everything in the Book of Revelations, though figurative has a literal manifestation that human beings are the intended audience for. Messenger(s) sent by the Kingdom of God to deliver a message of what’s to come is both informative and a call to consider changing one’s mind (repentence), as no matter what we think about our relationship with the Kingdom of God, it can always be improved upon. When we adopt more of the thinking and behaviors given to us from the Kingdom of God through their messengers aka ambassadors or representatives, we are in a real sense swapping out our human, carnal, mammalian ways of thinking and acting for the examples provided us through the representative(s) sent to us (as a human genetic tree) in times past, passed down and providing that trees current leaves to choose to implement or not.

Now, some may wonder, why the Kingdom of God doesn’t just broadcast as with a loudspeaker or some sort of concrete way to deliver to each human the message rather than operate with such secrecy. It’s because that would be manipulative of us. We would not have a chance to build our recognition and the faith that comes with increased recognition and because many are not asking God to receive what’s next for us to understand and do. Others who are asking in a way would have a hard time understanding and relating to their lives what is being transmitted as few want to change to a greater unknown while everyone is in a slightly different place of understanding and desire to have moreorless a relationship with the Kingdom of God. So the Kingdom of God periodically sends a trusted representative in an undercover way that we can’t clearly identify as having come from the Kingdom of God. This is the best way to provide those who are asking a huge opportunity, but one they must be willing to take a “leap of faith” to embrace fully.

“Undercover” is to come as one of us, as Moses said, …the return would be “just like me”, “born of flesh” aka a “son of huMAN”. The Soul of the sent representative literally prepares a particular human body who is asking or if still a baby one that would not otherwise survive to start interfacing with gradually until the time that they need to begin the task they came to do. In the case of Jesus, that task began formally when he began interfacing with the public starting with John the Baptist at which time John witnesses the Kingdom of God’s soul body entering more fully into the body Jesus. This way Jesus could spoon feed new updated thinking and acting to those humans who were also prepared to receive him and would in turn also become a willing host (though they didn’t know it, to a student Soul being given their next best opportunity to move closer to an eventual graduation into membership in the Kingdom of God.

Now in a large way when a representative is sent, they bring with them Their consciousness, or a certain amount of it, from the Kingdom of God which translates to the human kingdom as upgrades to all behavior and ways and at the same time stimulates advances and exploration in every department of the human environment. The bursting of new ideas are not met with enthusiasm by those that were not born at the time when the main burst of Kingdom of God representative “holy” Mind/Spirit is provided so it’s presense also stimulates the negative to become stronger to hold it’s ground.

Thus when you see large shifts in advancements, more open mindedness to new ideas, more willingness to status the status quo in any department of life, even if there are life or comfort level threats to doing so as well as trends in behavioral change and extremes, then we can know that the Kingdom of God representative(s), as they operate in crews though most are hidden from human view, is at “hand” – in other words, the representatives are in the area, within the Earth environment and are even operating through human vehicles they prepared ahead of time to receieve their more advanced MINDS. (Advancement is different for a member of the Kingdom of God and for a human).

Also when it’s said that an angel sounded, the term angel is not a singular term as the Kingdom of God operates in partnerships and crews, as Jesus had his Father (though hidden) with him and John the Baptist who recognized him, who was sent ahead to “prepare the way” as prophesized and the 11 of his closest disciples were as Jesus said, paraphrased, “given to Him by His Father, which he kept 11 of the 12” and Moses had the Lord in the cloud who would visit him and Aaron who the Lord also gave tasks to and Miriam and Joshua as his student helpers. Remember how Jesus sent out his 70 disciples in two’s and said, paraphrased, “where two or more are touching on any one thing in my name, I am in their midst. It’s more efficient as the two operate as “check partners” one for the other, helping them to be more objective to better discern and choose behavior and ways the rep from the Kingdom of God teaches regarding their task assignment.

Thus these 7 angels, messengers’ voice that is designed for human comprehension goes thru the incarnate representative assigned the task of interfacing IT to their student body and in process to all those who are given the Kingdom of God seed, to have the opportunity, some, in some way asked for, so to begin to become part of a future student body that could eventually lead to production of “fruit” for the Kingdom of God’s sake, as that’s why the “garden” and all it’s life forms are developmentally created.

The present incarnate representative takes the message, that actually has mulitple facets to it, a snapshot of which can be seen as the reason why Rev 18. references to the 7 angles who don’t have trumphets having a slightly different context and application detail, but the same core as demonstrated below, and applys it to their task priority which takes shape as a public delaration of shedding more light on what The Kingdom of God really is, why They are hear and what the requirements are to be included in a program that is focused on training to be a trusted member on their crew, actually performing tasks, some of which may be to be a messenger and another an observer/watcher and another in transportation, another in a laboratory for instance.

To think that the Kingdom of God isn’t many times more intricately organized and involved in a hands on way with every single aspect of the “creation” is like saying a corporation that makes computers doesn’t have their hands in every aspect of their product. To see the Kingdom of God as a strictly spiritual dimension that somehow willed into existence what we call “nature” is a generalization that was enough to understand for the early leaves off the human genetic tree, but as all things progressed and humans via technology advancements began to see and understand more of what was previously unable to be clearly detected and seen, more of the actual reality of the Kingdom of God’s design mechanics could also become seen and understood by those who were pressing for it, which renders those that still clung to the generalized understanding in a type of comparitive illusion.

However, person to person, it’s a continuous choice to cling to the past in understanding and ways or build upon what was given to us by the Kingdom of God in times past. The religions in general cling to the past as if there can be no updates, thus when the new representatives arrives and sounds the trumphet, it is met with anything but open arms from the religious leadership who often dictate to their followers how to think and act. These then become the “false prophets” as they look like “sheep” trying to adhere to certain aspects of the past information brought by the Kingdom of God and insisting that others must do so as well or else they are evil and condemned to the second death in the lake of fire as it has been prophesized. Little do they know, the humans who think of themselves as sheep of the Shepherd, or disciples of Jesus, their minds are being commondeered by the “wolves”, those predator “fallen angels” who are allowed by the Kingdom of God to be loosed to provide a testing criteria to all those who wish to proceed towards harvestability aka their Soul’s literal birth into membership in the Kingdom of God, what the Luciferians have convinced many will happen automatically by simply living by the 10 commmandments and paying homage/tithing to a religion and/or by belief alone, as we can witness in what’s been called the “born again” movement/mindset.

So these announcements and the calamities that follow in degrees of application are also the ways the Kingdom of God gives ALL humans many chances to “change their mind” from human “mind” to Kingdom of God “Mind”. In other words, the way the Kingdom of God works is to use their representatives on Earth, in physical human bodies as the mouthpieces, so for these angels to have sounded means their representatives are physically incarnate to do so, though those representatives don’t stay around for the calamities as that’s not their lesson material to deal with. (This is why some Christians argue that the “dead in Christ who rise first don’t experience the “tribulation” period. They don’t. The problem with this thinking is, that those who deam themselves the “dead in Christ” however they define “dead” did not estinguish all their human forms of sensuality which includes the sense stimulus of a mindset as in being religious or spiritual, or even intellectual as well as those forms of sensuality having to do with human sexuality and human family root systems. And even if there are some that to the best of their ability have tried to estinguish these fires, if they had not had a chance to do that while in the physical company of a present representative from the Kingdom of God then they would not have transferred to the new Kingdom of God family tree. In other words this is why some say you can’t earn your way into Heaven, as you can’t UNLESS you are literally and physically under the tutoring of the ONE true Older Member from the Kingdom of God sent to us to be our midwife, or shepherd or spouse. They are absolutely needed to give us the step by step process that has been termed “overcoming” the human condition/world. And this is what the sounding angels will be indicating the timing to be expressed. The voice will not be a threat so much as a notification of who is talking and what’s needed to reap the promised rewards. But then what of the calamities described in the sounding of each angel’s trumphet?

Calamities essentially provide people the choice to seek God’s help, in whatever language they think about God, or not and based upon that response the Kingdom of God will at times help those whom they determine are sincere to even physically survive the calamity or will keep that spirit or soul safe from being recycled(second death), so the Soul can be nurtured towards further growth. This is much like a pruning process of a gardener. They have to cut part of the plant off, killing some aspect of that bush in order to allow it to recover and come back stronger to produce the fruit it’s intended to produce. It’s not like the Kingdom of God promised anyone anything by allowing them to grow in the provided environment. Thus any life at all is in reality a gift to each of us. To curse the creator’s Kingdom and whoever the Admiral and Captain are at the helm of our particular garden experience is showing how little appreciation they have for even one day of life. Life becomes fully taken for granted by many. And this is also part of the garden experiment’s design to allow humans to become and think about whatever they want to become and think about regardless of how far off the reality track it is. But when humans begin to thrive off the backs of other humans to a degree that they begin to affect the production of fruit, new memberhip to the Kingdom of God, then it’s time that all the weeds be erradicated. The 7 angels demonstrate the process of that eradication of the weeds. Of course the weeds don’t think they are deserving of being pulled up and burned.

To follow are the scriptures regarding the “7 Angels with/without the trumphets” in Reveations.

Note the examples that follow the Angel’s sounds are physical changes to take place on Earth sometime in the future. It says in verse 8:6 that they “prepared themselves to sound”, and when the first angel sounds it says “there followed hail and fire…”. “follow could be 40 seconds to years our time, for example. In verse 8:8 the third part of the sea “(begins to)become” blood, as in 8:11 “became wormwood”, indicating a process, so it’s altogether possible some of these are in motion as we speak or that we on Earth have had some hints and examples that by paying attention to can alert us to how prophecy is being fulfilled that could bring us on a more open minded seeking of how the representatives may well be present or perhaps were preseant. Anyone that assumes they would KNOW when “the son of man from the Kingdom fo God” would return may in fact be the last to know, but at least as long as they are in a human vehicle they have a chance to still look.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
Rev 10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Note: Thus servent(s) of the Lord at the disciple level and in particular the writer John will prophesy again…that means once again have a physical body (born of flesh is necessary to be born of Soul/Spirit/Mindtalk to people) spreading the information given him from a member of the Kingdom of God, in this case the Soul that was last using the human (son of man) vehicle named Jesus.

Now for reference I have included Rev. 11 as the last place we see evidence of the 7 Angels, with 7 trumphets, the last three of which are woe’s described: (I will re-translate using the Greek to English word origins from Strong’s concordance/dictionary a little later to show how Ti and Do and Students fulfilled it all, down to every verse.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Note: Again the seventh angel sounds and there are voices in heaven that declare who the King is. Heaven in this case just might be the electronic/satellite connected media and internet whose signals go thorought what has always been spoken about as a “heaven”, the sky, etc.

Then we have the seven angels appear again but this time with Vials:

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Below is a comparison between the 7 Angels with 7 trumphets (5,6,7 also have Woes) in Revelations 8,9,10,11 and the 7 Angels with Vials in Rev. 16 showing how they evidence being the same 7 Angels, but the Rev. 8, etc. all “sound” (the voice of the Trumphet thus has an announcement to them, thus are not implemented until the depiction of the 7 Angels with vials.

The vials are defined as wide shallow bowls or saucers and as we saw before contain some ingredients that when poured onto certain areas of the Earth environment stimulate a type of fumagation process. In other words, it kills whatever it’s directed to kill and in this case the garden is being weeded, so it is killing all those that a thriving but devouring even the fruit that the Kingdom of God planted, the reason for the Earth and life to begin with thus needs to be erradicated. Of course the weeds don’t see themselves as weeds and in some cases don’t know any better but it’s just a matter of a short time before they all die off anyway so the Kingdom of God is simply deciding to escalate that otherwise normal process so they can move on to the their next phase of beginning to plant a new garden plot. So here is the comparison:

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Note: that some of these seem to be what was depicted in various scriptures from the 4 gospels and previous Revelations scriptures.

First Angel: Both speak of affecting the Earth(land) and resulting in bloodshed:

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled(mixed) with blood(shed), and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

These sores could be any number of diseases that afflict humans. The reason only those with mark of the beast are afflicted is because those that seek to be in the keeping of the Kingdom of God are asking for help whenever they have a problem and the Kingdom of God, depending on their sincerity, that the Kingdom of God knows, as being in the keeping means asking the Kingdom of God regularily to be in their service with a willingness to give their lives physically and mentally. Thus they get help to steer away from those things that stimulate the breakdown of the vehicle’s immune system to stave off diseases. It doesn’t mean these don’t also experience difficulities. They simply put it in the kingdom of God’s hands while seeking solutions the kingdom of God might provide that might be a nutritional program or ceasing certain behaviors and/or using certain techniques to help the vehicle adapt to new mental attitudes.

Second Angel: They both include the Seas being affected:

Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Third Angel: Both affect the Rivers and fountains and bring death to humans and other creatures. When something becomes blood it’s because of bloodshed, same meaning in Greek:

Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
Rev 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Note the reference to “fell a great star from heaven” one of at least two depictions:
 Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Forth Angel: Both of these affect the Sun, possibly to cause lots of sun spots that send more heat to the Earth. Sure a certain amount of global warming is recorded but here is the biggest reason for it, not human pollution as bad as that is. Many humans don’t have any desire nor perception of the creator’s kingdom so do/say anything to justify what they otherwise have zero control over.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Rev 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Note: This also seems to relate directly to:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
So the seals go hand in hand with both the warnings sounded of events to come and the events themselves, the seals pertaining more to the reponses of those who experience the warnings and events.

Fifth Angel: Both have to do with the (SEAT of The) BEAST(2342 therion = beastial(wild) humans) and the bottomless pit, where the BEAST is said to ascend out of, as seen in the references below:

Scriptural References where beastial humans are implicated:
 Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
 Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
 Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
 
Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Referenced to “star fall from heaven”:
 Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Sixth Angel: Both have to do with the river Euphrates

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Note: This may be one of the “spirits like frogs” coming out of each of the mouth’s of dragon/devil (fallen Luciferian based space aliens), beast (human who act like animals as predators, even though it can look normal, like business as usual) and false prophet, the staunch religionists – “wolves in sheeps clothing”.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Seventh Angel: Both demonstrate a Voice that announces being DONE/Finished.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

By the time this seventh voice begins to sound, the “Son of Man”, the Lamb of God, The Son of the Father from Heaven, known 2000 years ago as Jesus the Christ, would have completed, at least the promised returned phase of coming as one of us again (as a Son of huMAN), though the time period as it says in Rev. 10:7, “in the days of the voice…” for humans is certainly of some duration, but spoken of in “days”, which in addition to the modern meaning of 24 hours simply means a short period of time, but in God’s time an hour is like nearly 40 years using the 1 day for God is 1000 years for humans formula that Peter spoke of.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I say this statement that “it is done, the MYSTERY OF GOD should be finished, according to the Present “servants, the prophets”, because John was told he had to prophesize AGAIN, thus referring to the last time he prophesized 2000 years ago, as evidenced by his letters and this writing which he may have distributed to some degree before his body died is saying that the Soul called Jesus must have completed what he said he would upon his return.

Whatever is the instrument of this on earth will be revealing, “show us plainly/directly of the Father”, no more in parables/stories so there will no longer be a mystery in interpretations. However, does this mean all those who are tossing around interpretations will recognize the Mystery revealed. It’s a case by case basis.

This seventh angel doesn’t sound until AFTER the TWO Witnesses have ascended back to Heaven/into the clouds(spacecraft)(NOT space alien) from whence they came as TWO Christs.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

kill is greek apokteino which together apo + Kteino indicates a haulting. There are other words for slaying someone or killing someone or murdering someone. The Beastial humans do overcome them when they announce on Network TV that they were no longer The Mysterious Two, as the movie title said, starring John Forsyth as Bo(Do), but were Marshall Herrf Applewhite and Bonnie Lu Truesdale Nettles from Texas and that they had both been arrested and Do spent time in prison. They were “shot down” by the press.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street(commons) of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

They felt stopped and felt they lost any credability, until they realized they never had any credability anyway which was some 3 days later. They also thought they would not be able to go anywhere without being arrested, accused of taking advantage of others, etc. But after 3 days they decided they must continue. They had about 70 something students then, and since the group had been infiltrated by Rob Balch and his friend, and en masse we’d be easy to notice/find in campground, they split us up to finish up the prohesizing that John was told he’d have to do again.

Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Their stopped bodies, were stopped in the national media commons/street and they were in Las Vegas then, (The SPIRITUAL area of Sodom and Egypt where Jesus was crucified).

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead(stopped) bodies to be put in graves(have a monument made for them).

The only way all these different people could see this is through the media and they and their picture was all over the news starting in October of 1975 and in every major news magazine and TV and Radio news program.

In other words no one wanted to memorialize them.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The people were glad to hear who they were as for nearly a month the reports were talking about this or that missing person and their rendevous with a UFO. They were accused of having something to do with cattle mutilations which we certainly did not. People were tormented by them, then and then again in 1997 as this causes the brain to spasm for many.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

So while in Las Vegas feeling haulted, they literally had to pick themselves up to face the music and did meetings for the next 6 months.

But as is common with the Kingdom of God prophecies, I believe this also can refer to their taking a stand once again as the Heaven’s Gate cult which really put fear into people to see. In either case, 17 years passed, a tiny period of time for the KIngdom of God…

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

That great voice from heaven, they only heard, no one else. That voice was the sign/token and instruction that approved their plan to exit that the halebopp comet w/companion verified. It was not by far the only evidence they had to leave by as they had 24 years of direction to this end/beginning.

They did ascend up to the sky/heaven, God’s abode, into a spacecraft (cloud). Humans just could not see their ascension. Their enemies watched them (on TV news and Internet videos as they left a bunch of testimonials by students so there could be little doubt they were acting on their own volition adn why – For Do, for the KIndom of God/Father, Ti’s sake).

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake(shaking), and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

I suspect this was the 9/11/2001 WTC Washington terrorist attacks. Many people’s bodies were completly pulverized so we may never know how many were killed and if that includes those who die from the poisons breathed in by the rescue crews on the “pile” plus this isn’t something the Kingdom of God will predict with an absolute knowledge of as they don’t have such control over this garden that they know how many will die when that exactly. However, there was an earthquake very near october of 1975 in China where 7000 families were reported killed.

(I have posted a much more thorough Rev. 11 interpretation with more documentation on my blog).

Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Note: Again the seventh angel sounds and there are voices in heaven that declare who the King is. In other words, the Lord and his Christ are in full control over what’s to happen next. Heaven in this case just might be the electronic/satellite connected media and internet whose signals go throughout what has always been spoken about as a “heaven”, the sky, etc.

And with this we see on International television, radio, internet, newspapers, spoken word the witness of the Heavens Gate “cult’s” laying down all their physical lives representing the cutting of the wheat stalk of harvest.

Anyone can watch Do give his last message via video prepared just weeks before they layed down their lives. He is in full control though of course few will watch or consider he is, but that remains to be proven even to the scoffers and doubters upon his last return, but this time not to walk among us again. This next time he may still be visible to many in some way and may appear as he did on that last video for the sake of those who know his picture with is literally millions of people who say that video on the news in 1997.

**** end of 7 angels…insert ****

Henry said:

For the heaven’s gate group to therefore claim that the two witnesses have already fulfilled their ministry is again another lie in the face of scripture.

Sawyer says:

Again, what scripture, but I guess you need to examine my responses to speak to.

However, you are so quick to say someone is lying. What do I have to gain from lying, the fulfillment that I’m doing the right thing, am right with God by believing in Ti and Do? I hardly need you for that, someone I never met and probably never will who can offer me nothing except a chance to look at your perspective which I don’t get anything new from so nothing to consider further.

In any case how could lying help me believe? Wouldn’t that be like shooting myself in the foot. A lie is when someone says something they know is untrue is it not or that they can’t know is untrue. It’s actually impossible for any of us to KNOW what is NOT possible, except in what we are given by Jesus to understand that way, which is little.

Henry said:

This has not been a detailed study on the heaven’s gate group nor was it intended to be but I believe I have left the reader in no doubt about the deceptive nature of the group. Their purpose is clearly not to fulfill the mission of Christ even though they may have been deceived into thinking that it is. I only pray that those who encounter them will stay clear of them and those who remain in the group may see the light of Christ and be awakened out of their deception.

Sawyer says:

And what was deceptive exactly. What did Ti and Do say ever that was deceptive. Sure it’s not something you believe in but that doesn’t mean it’s deceptive. Again, accusations galore but no meat. Just banter! However, it affords me the opportunity to show those just how much meat there was to Ti and Do.

And Henry and anyone who reads this…THERE IS NO GROUP. THEY ARE GONE SO THERE’S NO PLACE TO GO SEE THEM OR STATUES TO WORSHIP. The only left is the records they left and people like me working for them in abstentia.

The mission of Christ has been so twisted that many think they fulfill it. They only have to read the gospels and take every word to heart as if he was talking to each of us, to realized how far short we all fall in living up to his commandments and ways/sayings that he said are what show the fruit of a true disciple. Of course it’s all in degrees and our successes and failures are all successes if we press on, seeking the Kingdom of God’s help and wanting to be in Their service.

I leave you with a final thought?

Where is one iota of heracy (talking or acting against) the Bible and any of it’s Kingdom of God representatives, their commandments and depictions?

You can follow Henry and his readers responses to date on:

http://spiritofdiscernment.wordpress.com/2011/09/21/the-heresy-of-the-heaven%e2%80%99s-gate-cult

 

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Was Jesus a Space Alien NO He was Above Human equivilent space aliens

October 5, 2011

Below is the history of posts to date between 4 people, Henry the blogger, Marianne, Hopeful_watcher and me, Sawyer. It starts with Henry’s blog post. Some of my response were never approved but it appears I can still see them so they are included here. If you’ve already read some of this or are bored by it, I suggest searching for: “space being” which will take you to a post by hopeful_watcher to which I responded. It was interesting to see this person respond at all, as he has to date said he wouldn’t even read my comments anymore. It seems he has woke up a tiny bit to even be thinking that the idea of jesus being a space alien is interesting to think about as it certainly is. It’s possible that was a way that his mind, that might have a little life left in it, and begin to open up to take in more in that regard, that I hope I supplied as Ti and Do might. We could be witnessing the birth of one that might otherwise have been lost. I don’t mean to sound like a christian religonist but this is a fishing exposition but the difference between those working for Ti and Do and those working for anyone else is that our prize doesn’t come by catching fish. Our prize comes by trying to catch fish and then trying to do every task Ti and Do give us down the road in this current body’s lifetime and then thereafter. It’s just so far and few between that I’m getting a little batty I guess, but it could be an example that we are not to give up on anyone. As long as they engage us, even if it’s to put us down or call us liars or tell us we are damned, that may simply be their Luciferian styled influences holding on to that vehicle for the time share they thrive on and/or to just keep anyone away from Ti and Do. My post after that one to Hopeful_watcher was to Henry and I suspect it will be my last post to that blog because I believe he will either cut me off or delete the post or disallow all my comments, but I could be wrong. As for marieanne, she has been interestingly quiet of late and I have her email and she has mine so we may still hear from her. I actually feel for these three. It’s amazingly hard to change and they have been taught to fear anything the presents a change as they are brainwashed to think only Jesus will come to them to talk to them and that he’ll do so by some supernatural display in the sky as a light or whatnot.

And actually they may be right as that may be how Do and students return in their spacecraft either as they are or as they were to show the world that they are the same one’s who layed those vehicles down. They can’t “fear seeing his face” if they never have seen it. The problem is, if they don’t consider who they really are before they come in their spacecraft, they will be caught off guard and their vehicle will probably not have time to adjust, change it’s mind(repent) and will just expire from the shock, the fear that goes with witnessing the power Do and students will all emit automatically by the enormity of the mind they are links of and the mind blowing way in which their vehicle witnesses it’s arrival.

So perhaps for some, about the best they can get to might be to look at the heaven’s gate site and/or some pictures or yourtube video’s or remember what they saw in 1997 and have a type of comfort with Do’s face and what he emits which is very strong medicine that scares away influences to witness, which is why it can even be difficult for believers to watch too at times. So even if they go to a site and see Do’s face with the intent of finding the evidence to shoot down the belief of whoever we are talking to, it might be able to be used by the Next Level as a positive. I don’t know. I could be way off here so don’t quote me on this. Just a consideration that doesn’t judge someone as incapable of change as that’s not within our capacity.

The heresy of the Heaven’s Gate cult
September 21, 2011 by Henry

I first encountered the heavens gate cult when I read a news article about how the brother of the Star Trek actress Nichelle Nichol’s (who played Lieutenant Uhura in the original series) committed suicide in 1997 in what was a mass suicide conducted by the Heaven’s Gate group to coincide with the passing of Hales Comet by the earth. It was believed by those who were involved that the comet would take their souls to heaven. From a Christian point of view this of course is preposterous but what should be more surprising is the fact that this group claim also to be followers of Christ and cloak their beliefs in scripture. I personally have not studied the beliefs of this group extensively however from what I have learnt about them I know enough to designate them as a cult which promotes false doctrines.

Our Lord Jesus Christ warns us many times in His word that we should beware of false christs and false teachers who if it were possible would deceive the very elect. I fear that those who are involved with the heaven’s gate group are both deceiving and being deceived. For instance, where is it written in scripture that believers should commit suicide in order to attain to heaven or even that space objects such as comets would come to take our souls to heaven so that we should take our own lives to gain entry such a vehicle? Anyone who believes this must necessarily believe a different gospel than that written in the Bible. However, as Paul admonishes us we should test every spirit to see if they are of God, in like fashion as the Bereans who examined all that Paul had taught them against the word to see if those things that Paul claimed were so. The adherents of the heaven’s gate group would do well to study the scriptures daily to see if the teachings they received lined up with the Word of God.

Jesus Christ came into this world to die for our sins so that through Him – by believing in Him and His gospel message we might be saved and inherit eternal life. Paul writing to Titus said:

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Rather than committing suicide to accelerate our journey to heaven we are to earnestly continue in the blessed hope, waiting for the appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. Moreover, when we die though we be in Christ we do not instantly go to heaven. Rather we remain asleep until the great and terrible day of the Lord when Jesus shall descend from heaven to gather the dead and the living who are in Him to Himself. See the following verses:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:16-18)

The heaven’s gate group however believes there is actually a different way to get to heaven – mass suicide. To them what is written here in the Word is not true but rather what their teachers tell them is what they believe to be the truth. However you cannot have it both ways – it is either you believe the Word of God as written in the Bible or you make it up as you go along or follow those who make it up as they go along.

The heaven’s gate group believes in two characters called Ti and Do who they claim are Jesus and God and at the same time the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. The first question we need to ask here is whether God can send witnesses who contradict His very word. Let us first of all briefly examine whether these two characters could actually be God and Jesus. Jesus came into this world a messenger of the Father to bring good news to the lost. Jesus however told us that He is going back but will come again to gather those that are His to himself (Matt 16:27, Rev 22:12). Jesus knew however that when He left many false Christ would arise after Him to lead the people astray so He gave the desciples the signs to look for of His coming so that we are not deceived. We read for example:

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matt 24:24-27)

In spite of these clear warnings given by Jesus Himself that we should not go after another who is already on earth and claiming to be Him but rather to look for His appearing as the lighting flashes from East to West the heaven’s gate group rejects these very words. They claim that Jesus does not need to appear in this way but that His coming is phased and it is up to us to be able to recognize if when he is here. To reject Jesus’ words here and to say that Ti and Do are God and Jesus incarnate is nothing but a lie in the face of the Bible. Whom do we trust? The Bible, the revealed word of God or do we trust another who contradicts this very word?

Could these two therefore be the Two Witnesses of God – not if they contradict the very word of God they cannot be. More importantly they do not fit into neither the prophesy nor the criteria to fulfill the prophesy surrounding the ministry of the Two Witnesses. The Bible makes clear to us that the Two Witnesses complete their ministry during the opening of the 7th Seal at a time when the 5th angel (of the seven having the seven trumpets and the last seven plagues to judge the earth) sounded. These events occur after the 6th seal when the heavens were opened and when Jesus gathers those that are His to Himself. We know this because in Revelations 9 the 5th angel sounded and released the angel of the bottomless pit which I believe is the same beast of the bottomless bit which made war with the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11 and killed them following the end of their ministry. For the heaven’s gate group to therefore claim that the two witnesses have already fulfilled their ministry is again another lie in the face of scripture.

This has not been a detailed study on the heaven’s gate group nor was it intended to be but I believe I have left the reader in no doubt about the deceptive nature of the group. Their purpose is clearly not to fulfill the mission of Christ even though they may have been deceived into thinking that it is. I only pray that those who encounter them will stay clear of them and those who remain in the group may see the light of Christ and be awakened out of their deception.

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Posted in False Doctrines | Tagged christian cult, cult, false doctrine, heavens gate, heresy, mass suicide, ufo | 22 Comments

22 Responses
on September 21, 2011 at 5:25 pm | Reply  Hopeful_watcher
Bravo. There is nothing to add. Nothing to dispute. I assume a rebuttal will be forth coming, but I have no desire to read it.

on September 22, 2011 at 1:38 pm | Reply  Marianne Lordi
Hi Henry, you gave a good word. Unfortunately those deceived will continue to argue against the truth but so be it.

I do however have one point that I would like to bring up. You said that those who die will remain asleep until Christ coming. If that were so, then how do you reconcile Christ in the garden when Elijah and Moses showed up? Also, the bible does tell us absent from the body- present with the Lord! I think that Scripture you refer to means that those who have died, their bodies will resurrect and they will receive new ones that are not corrupt as shall we who are in Christ shall do also. Those believers who die now are in spirit form. So at that day when Christ calls us, all believers shall receive their new bodies that we will have evermore in heaven.

on September 22, 2011 at 6:33 pm | Reply  sawyer
I expect Henry will block my comments as He fears hearing more truth, but I will be posting this on my blog for all to see as there are many that talk like you all who think you are so deserving of God’s kingdom just because you talk about scriptures. Talk about illusion. Why is it that those actually with Jesus had to give so much and you don’t.

It’s because you have been programmed to confuse those who simply “believed in Jesus” before they died 2000 years ago and those who actually became disciples – active students (though I’m using a modern term with a plain to understand definition rather than the one filled with religious trappings). You won’t like this but a disciple has a much greater measure to live up to. As Jesus said,

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.

on September 23, 2011 at 10:45 am | Reply  Henry
Hi Marianne,   Indeed those that are deceived continue to argue instead of examining the word properly against their beliefs. Notice that Sawyer does not respond to the specific points I put to him but instead goes around in circles to present different views that purports to be a scriptural challenge to my position on scriptures.   Anyway, I will try to address your other point breifly as this is an entire topic in itself. Do Christians automatically go to heaven when they die? I do not believe that this is the case but please help me out with any scriptures on this that you have.   What I have understood from scripture is that the spirit of man returns to God when someone dies (Ecc 3:21, Ecc 12:7). The question is, does that mean that this spirit is conscious when it returns to God? The same Preacher who said that the spirit returns to God on death says that the dead knoweth nothing (Ecc 9:5).   Consider this then – if we say that a Christian who dies will go straight to heaven are we not saying they are reaping their reward? But isn’t it true that our reward is given when Jesus returns on the day of Judgement? So how can we say that someone is enjoying their reward before the appointed time.   We know that Moses died in Moab (i.e. fell asleep) (Deut 34:5) but Elijah went to heaven without seeing death (2 Kin 2:11). Does the fact therefore that both Moses and Elijah were seen with Christ on the “mount of transfiguration” prove that both Elijah and Moses were in heaven?   I will tell you why I don’t believe that Moses was literally in heaven. The Bible tells us that Jesus was/is the “first born of the dead”.This means the first man to have died, resurrected and ascended to everlasting life. In like fashion those that are in Christ will go through the same “process” when Christ returns. To say then that Moses was in heaven would go against scripture which tells us that Christ is the first fruit of the dead – we would be saying here that Moses died and went to heaven before Christ which would mean Christ was NOT the first fruit of the dead.   I therefore believe that Moses was asleep but was “temporarily made awake” at the “mount of transfiguration.” I am basing this on the fact that though Samuel the prophet was dead a a woman which had a familiar spirit was able to ”conjure up” his spirit so that Saul could enquire of him concerning the future of Israel. If Samuel was in heaven how is it that the woman saw him ascending out of the ground (See 1 Samuel 28)? Samuel even asked Saul in verse 15 why did he disturb him to bring him up. On the basis of these points do you still think that the dead in Christ go straight to heaven? Symbolically they do in the sense that they are asured of eternal salvation but are they in a conscious state in heaven enjoying the fruits of paradise? I think not but please provide me with any scriptures to correct me if I am wrong. 

on September 23, 2011 at 11:18 am  Hopeful_watcher
I have heard and I believe its referenced in Luke the ‘bosom of Abraham’ where the good go before judgement. If so, this would parallel your thoughts on this.

on September 23, 2011 at 1:31 pm  Marianne Lordi
Hi Henry, When I said about Moses and Elijah speaking with Christ, I did not mean to infer that they were in heaven but rather in Abraham’s bosom until Christ opened heaven with his death. The point I was making is that they were not “asleep” somewhere. Our bodies “sleep when we die and our bodies can no longer worship Christ, however, our soul and spirit is with God when we died. Jesus told the thief on the cross who believed in him that TODAY you will be with me in paradise. We cannot overlook all this, Henry. As for Samuel saying why did you disturb my rest, there are different comments on that situation. But I don’t think you are saying that Samuel was really “resting” and didn’t want to be disturbed. Remember, Saul and the the woman practicing sorcery saw Samuel in his old body. We shed our bodies when we die. To be a believer and to say that we still hold onto them UNTIL we are resurrected is not in scripture. We don’t hold onto our body at the point of death. At the moment we are absent from our body, we are present with the Lord! That is what the bible says. When Stephen was being stoned to death for Christ, he looked up and saw “the Son of Man standing at the right hand of the Father”. Christ was getting ready to welcome him home. Do you think that Jesus showed himself to Stephen in heaven only to let him lie in his corrupt body until the resurrection?

Now those with Christ now are in heaven with him but have not been given their eternal reward. Remember, we will be given jobs and be over angels and over the earth and every thing with Christ. That is when we will receive our full reward. Heaven alone is not it all. He will give to us the reward according to what we did for his kingdom while we were on earth. We will not face a judgment for our sins for they will be remembered no longer as we both know.

There is a great commentary on this subject by John MacArthur. Here is a brief paragraph from one of his comments on this subject:

“Now the word “sleep” in the Bible is used of normal sleep, a recovery process by which the body goes into rest temporarily. John 11:12 uses it in its normal sense. But the word for “sleep” is also used uniquely of Christians and it’s used a number of times for Christians, now listen carefully, and it always refers to their bodies…it always refers to their bodies. The only part of us that goes in to any state of unconsciousness at death is the body. In John, you remember chapter 11 and verse 11, our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, Jesus said, but I go that I may awaken him out of sleep. Now everybody knew that Lazarus was…what?…he was dead, he had been dead for three days. His sister said, “By this time his body stinketh.” Decay had set in, he had been entombed, he was dead. From Jesus’ view he was only asleep, his soul was alive not bound in the grave, we don’t know where it was or what it experienced cause the Scripture doesn’t tell us, but it does not pass out of existence since it is eternal and it is eternally conscious. But his body was at rest and Jesus saw that as temporary that’s why He calls it sleep. Sleep is something you wake up from. If you don’t wake up you’re dead or you eventually will die. And so Jesus sees the death of Lazarus as temporary repose of his body.” (John MacArthur)

I don’t want to go on too long. While I firmly believe that when you die, you are present with the Lord as said in Scripture, I don’t think that your belief or mine will affect our salvation. That is all we both need to know.

As for Sawyer, you said enough to him. He isn’t taking any of it in and is just being argumentative. We both explained to him what the bible says and he just wants to add what he believes to the bible and bring judgment on himself. He has his own blog, he should keep his teachings there.

on September 25, 2011 at 7:05 am  sawyer
Henry, I’ve been busy and have already stretched my time for you all, but I’m still a sap to talk about Jesus so I’ll get back to your ill informed assumptions and mindless accusations and petty sumation of a group you admit to knowing little about, while acting as if you have an authortative stance. Have your fun. Actually it’s a signal I’m long overdue to recognize, for me to disengage with you all. That should make you happy.

on September 22, 2011 at 6:47 pm | Reply  sawyer
Henry is demonstrating a big part of why you all fear a head to head scriptural (what can be evidenced as having been what Jesus said and did) debate. You all have been fooled by Paul. I have talked about this before and you were not able to hear me. Here is another very, very strong scriptural EVIDENCE as to how those who were actual physical disciples of Jesus (as opposed to believers, the difference being huge, as disciples had to leave everything behind, spouse, children, lands, homes, and even their own life to be a disciple):

Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.

They didn’t trust him. They were afraid of him. Why. Well because he was murdering them if not directly by his hand, by his overseeing and command, as evidenced by Saul’s own testimony and the events in the stoning of Stephen. Why would Jesus want to work with someone who was murdering those that believed in him? Why would Jesus blind him into submission. Jesus did not even blind or otherwise strike out at anyone. Jesus did not need followers and certainly not followers that hated him. And further more this blinding light had a voice that said “I am Jesus whom you persecute”. Well first off, there is no record that Saul ever met or saw Jesus so how could he be persecuting him. Secondly, Jesus himself said not to believe anyone that comes “in my name saying they are the Christ” adn what does this voice say. “I am Jesus”. Was not the name Jesus used Jesus? This voice was Lucifer, the “angel of light” looking to trick would be believers and thus was the first major surfacing of the Anti Christ and today 99% of the organized churches honor Paul and quote Paul and look to what Paul said. Why is that? Well, Paul, however well intended didn’t know Jesus and only knew about Jesus from what others said, so he built a following on the coattails of Jesus and got many to look to him for all the answers and direction.

So is what Jesus said not good enough for you all? Go ahead quote Paul. See if Paul can save you. It’s EASY to assume you are in Jesus favour.

on September 22, 2011 at 7:06 pm | Reply  sawyer
Here is my response to your last entry in the last post before you turned off comments.

Yes, Lucifer has attempted to twist everything, even the Bible, the reason so many people can use scripture to justify a myrid of behaviours against others. One prime tactic is to make everything black and white – thus every word of what’s in the Bible is thought by some to be 100% directly spoken by God through human servants. To take that to yet another extreme is to think only the King James Version demonstrates God’s accurate words. I do trust that God saw to it that the reocrd of what his Son said is trustworthy, even in the form in which we get it, having been translated. However, any two or more people can read most anything Jesus said and can write books on what Jesus must have meant, whether he meant it figuratively, was telling a story to illustrate what some would not otherwise understand. Does God play games with giving us His Word in such a way that there are mulitple interpretations. Even Thou shalt not kill has become morphed into not killing except for in self defense and then self defense becomes blowing up one’s neighbor for suspicion they might want to blow us away. And why do we need to learn to recognize the “fruit” of any member of the Kingdom of God when they come. Why do we need to keep our lamps trimmed and with oil to see by if Jesus when he comes will be as lightening. Do we need to prepare to SEE him when he comes as lightening. Even so, as I don’t dispute that scripture, does seeing Him as LIghtening mean we are going to understand what we see. If he came inside a comet would we know it if we were not open to the idea. Isn’t the main characteristic of a good observer someone who looks at all they can. How can observation be a negative unless we are afraid of seeing something that would therefore suggest having to “change one’s mind” the real meaning of repentance (which also entails changing our ways). And that’s a case in point. The Term repentence, the word, God, the word Christ, the word Heaven, the word Hell, the word spirit, soul, life, death ALL are seen in a variety of ways depending on the observer and what they want to see or are willing to dig to see. God doen’t want robots who take everything at face value regardless of whether it truely represents what God knows they are capable of, so we are given steps and everyone is not on the same step at the same time which there is no shame in.

And if God wants to change his words that’s god’s perogative not mine. But for the record I think it’s very clear that what he was talkign about in saying that not one jot or tittle of the law would vanish, was that God’s not going to change their commandments which entail the requirements to make application to membership in God’s kingdom.

Ti and Do did not just say they were the Two Witnesses. There exist many hundreds of hours of tapes that recording their step by step progression with their students over 24 years in occupation of physical bodies, (son of hu-man, in other words “begotten” – born from a human woman’s womb). Jesus also said “you will see(understand) the son of man(with a begotten body) coming in/with/among the clouds… sitting on the right hand of power and glory. Jesus is the “right hand man” for His Father, who is his POWER, thus this can be seen as another indicator of who the Two Witnesses (Christs) are, as Father and Son, with the Father also being “born of woman”) in order to birth their son into his Fatherhood.(Rev 12).

So we can trust that God has delivered to us what we need in the record – the bible but most reliably the words of Moses and then the words of Jesus, then secondarily the words of the prophets that seemed to say the same things and that Moses and/or Jesus referenced, like Isaiah and Zechariah and those that were His disciples who demonstrate consistancy with what Moses/Jesus said/did, though part of that consistancy is that there would be updates each time a member of the kingdom of God comes as a “son of man” which tests/challenges everyone to yet a higher set of standards, the reason why Jesus was hated by the very ones who said they were disciples of Moses, and so the process extends itself to now. There must always be leaps of faith as we are putting on amour against the lower forces while bonding, entailing changing our source of life from the human family unit and it’s behavior and ways to the Kingdom of God’s family unit, behavior and ways as given to us, demonstrated to us, so we could mimic and absorb and make our own when we (our souls) have that face to face (born of flesh) opportunity to do so – (not reincarnation, a concept that is a twist of the way the Kingdom of God chooses to bring back the souls(those who are attemptign to wash their robes and have no guile and are overcoming their human mammon masters whom they are working towards spirit/soul birth with that also becomes a moving up opportunity for all God’s creatures.

on September 23, 2011 at 1:05 pm | Reply  Henry
Sawyer,
What you speak is NOT truth when examined in light of scripture though you may believe that it is. The mistake you have made is to trust in a man’s words rather than to trust in the Bible and then examine what someone claims against the Bible. This is deception.

So far you have not addressed none of my specific points but you resort to subterfuge in avoiding those points. I am not going to continue in a fruitless discussion with you if you cannot scripturally address those points which I have presented to you in my rebuttal of your beliefs. For instance in your first reply you went off on a tangent about people who were disciples and those who were simple believers and I fail to see what value this adds. Questioning Paul’s integrety is again another fruitless point. If you cannot see parallels with Paul’s teaching and Christ’s teachings then you do not know anything about Christian and the walk of faith. To ask why would God choose someone like Paul to be an apostle is a moot point. Have you not heard – ‘For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God?’ ‘Let him that is without sin cast the first stone.’ Who then are you to judge Paul and to question God’s sovereign will to choose him to be His apostle?

It is interesting to see that you yourself come here to judge me and others by your reasoning that we think we are in God’s favour and that those who were with Christ had to give so much and I don’t. I do not condescend to my own sense of self-importance contrary to what you think – these points you raise anyway are nothing but a distraction from the real issues herein and appears to be a deliberate ploy by you. Stick to the issues at hand.

You have demonstrated your level of ignorance when you say that it is God’s perogative to change His own words. To make such a statement is to implicate God in telling untruths. You still do not understand the nature of God – the God of the Bible that is. You have developed a false premise from your encounters with false prophets and teachers. God said: For I am the Lord, I change not (Mal 3:6). Scripture also said: God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind (Num 23:19).

The truth though is that Applewhite and co lied to you. They came to you claiming to be God and Christ – Let me tell you something of a truth: No man hath seen God at anytime (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12). No man can look upon the face of God and live (Ex 33:20). For you to claim then that you have seen God in the persons of Ti and Do is a lie – You have been deceived. You would not have been able to come here to converse with me.

I have presented you with the truth and if you do not want to sit down and study and examine it against scripture then I can’t force you. But what I will not do is to continue to enter into a fruitless discourse with you on claims that cannot be substantiated by the Bible. Anymore fruitless post from you will be deleted forthwith.

on September 25, 2011 at 3:24 am | Reply  sawyer
Henry, I just have not have time to respond as I spent a lot of time with someone else, and you will be happy to know that after I respond, I will be out of your hair. I’ve done all I can do. It’s up to you to consider it further or not and it doesn’t matter to me what you choose.

on September 26, 2011 at 12:57 pm | Reply  Henry
Hi Marianne,

I don’t want you to misunderstand me. I am not saying that when we die we are asleep somewhere. I used the term “asleep” in the same sense that scripture uses it to describe death (see Acts 13:36, 2 Pet 3:4 for example) so I am not being unbiblical here.

I have already said that the spirit goes to God when someone dies but the question I asked you before is whether Christians go to heaven when they die such that they are conscious of the fact that they are in heaven. Abraham’s bossom is a metaphor but for what exactly we don’t really know. According to you also you say that scripture says when we are absent in body we are present with the Lord but you have not offered the source of that scripture. Can you please provide it? Sometimes I wonder if this is more of belief rather than biblical fact.

Anyway if the dead in Christ are with the Lord why are the dead in Christ rising first from the earth to meet Christ in the air when He returns – particularly considering they will receive new bodies? Also did Christ go straight to heaven when He died? Yet at the resurrection His body was not seen in the tomb when they went to visit and check on the third day. It seems therefore that the same body that died is translated at the resurrection (change in the twinkling of an eye).

I have to admit that this whole thing is a mystery which I do not fully have a handle on. To complicate matters even more we have the the story about the souls of them that were martyred from Christ sake under the altar (in heaven) crying to God asking when He will judge the earth. Was this literal or symbolic? If the dead in Christ are with the Lord why are these souls under the altar in the temple in heaven?

on September 26, 2011 at 3:50 pm | Reply  Marianne Lordi
Hi Henry,

The souls of those martyred from Christ whose blood cries out to God is not literal. We know that no one is lying around crying out. Just as God told Cain that Abel’s blood cried out from the ground, he was speaking metaphorically. The justice of the matter was the cry!

The awesome teacher, Jonathan Edwards, did a great exposition on this matter that may clear some things up for you. (Absent from the body and present with God is what Paul spoke of in 2 Cor. 5 ). Please read it when you can. Edwards was a great teacher:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/je-absent.htm

on September 26, 2011 at 1:10 pm | Reply  Henry
Sawyer,

I am open to discuss scripture with you on any topic. However the mistake you make is rather than examine what you have been taught against scripture you instead examine scripture against what you have been taught. You reject the teachings of Paul for example based on what you heard someone else teach instead of examining Paul’s teachings against the rest of scripture. I have looked at Paul’s teachings agains Christ’s own and I see no fault in it. When Paul went preaching the Gospel in Berea those that received him received the word with all readiness of heart but they did not accept the teaching at face value. They instead studied the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was teaching was true. As a result Paul called them more noble than those of Thessolonica. This is what you should have done.

The mistake you have made is the same thing you are asking me to do. You are asking me to take your word for it on what you say because someone was teaching you this thing for over 20 years – but the length of time something is being taught does not in itself substantiate the truth of it. Hence I have examined those things you have claimed against scriptures and found it wanting. To decry me and argue that I do not no anything about the group is neither here nor there. I do not need to know the history of a group to know whether or not certain claims they make are true or not. I have to examine what you claim against scripture and if it doesn’t tie in with scripture then it has to be rejected.

I have seen though that you have not addressed the things I have said to you on a scriptural basis but you have instead resorted to taking “pop shots” at me and then call my analysis of your doctrine petty. I think it is you who are being petty, not me. Instead of keep going back to what Ti and Do said you should be examining what Ti and Do said agains Holy Writ.

on October 5, 2011 at 5:01 am | Reply  sawyer
I did talk about scripture in my response that is listed as “awaiting moderation” so how come you didn’t it let it go though. Are you protecting someone who you don’t think is on strong enough group to hear what comes out of my little brain, or what is your reason exactly?

on October 5, 2011 at 5:10 am | Reply  sawyer
Just so you know, I am rewarded whether you or others hear me or not. So just giving me this forum is helping me and those that read my blog where I also post these things that also goes to facebook. So if you really want to do service to yourself and whoever else you serve I suggest turning off my subscription to your blog or stop responding to what I say. You’ve already deceided I’m a lost soul so why bother try to brainwash me into the illusion you insist on having that you think is so aware but are afraid to hear a counter to. I have listened to all your counters and you have not replied to all the many sriptural points I brougth up? Like answer me this one. When Jesus salked about leaving mother and father and sister and brother and lands and CHILDREN BEHIND TO FOLLOW HIM what did he mean by that? I’m curious as to yoru interreatation? I bet you won’t post this. And when jesus said that to “make oneself a eunuch for the kingdom of heaven’s sake” what did he mean by that ? and when he said one needed to give away all his possessions, what did he mean by that. and when he said, if you don’t keep his saying you are not his discople what did he meant by that? and when he said his disciples would also have to drink the same cup he was drinking what did he mean by “cup”? want me to continue. cut off an hand, pluck out an eye… and there is lots more.

on September 27, 2011 at 4:15 am | Reply  sawyer
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Henry, Let me just say, I apologize if I’ve said disrespectful things to you. I’m not sure what they were at this time but you said “pot shots” so I no doubt have become somewhat defensive at times and aggressive as well.

However, I do feel, the retorick from you and Marieanne and hopeful watcher is often just as confrontational, which I don’t enjoy, but I’m not in this for enjoyment and it’s actually fine as we each have strong feelings about what we believe.

Nevertheless, what I feel happens a great deal in my opinion, which may in part be due to the nature of comments on the internet, lots of assumptions seem to be made. I know marianne said I assumed she was a Catholic, but if you go back to what I said, I simply said she “sounded like a catholic” regarding her talking about the “trinity” (not a word in the bible record I can find in any language). Now I can see how looking at those words I used, she would think I was saying she was a Catholic, but in my mind I knew that I didn’t know. I don’t pretend to be psychic and neither were Ti and Do by the way. They said those techniques were actually “tricks” used by the “lower forces”, part of the things done to fool the elect.

I do agree with you that the length of time with anything is not proof of understanding even what we were apart of for that duration and especially applicable with things Biblical because it’s so, so easy and often the case that we are dumbfounded by what we read or think we understand it, but then some time later come back to it, or read someone else’s understanding or interpretation and we can often realize we didn’t understand it as well as we still might.

The only reason I say I had 19 years of first hand experience with Ti and Do is so it’s clear this is not a second hand witness, thus one might give a little more credence to the experiences I relay about Them, not that one still doesn’t need to test it and challenge it and debate parts. I expect that. I really wouldnt’ not want someone to take my word for it. I’m not trying to persuade though I do feel the evidence I’m mounted is quite persuasive to anyone who is willing to give each piece a genuine consideration.

Frankly, I take people’s outright rejection of Ti and Do, as you three have done from day one of my conversations about Ti and Do, which has extended itself from other blogs where I met you three I believe as some evidence that it’s fearful to be willing to “consider” as you know that if you considered who Ti and Do might well be, then you’d be beginning to get sucked into it further and how upsetting that would be accross the board, in each of your lives and in you own personal skin. Maybe “fears” not the correct word, but we have no record in the Bible I’m aware of where Jesus or Moses commanded, “thou shall not examine what someone’s fruits are”, fruit being a huge point to discern, as we’d have to know what Jesus meant by it.

Now perhaps you are thinking now, that you have examined the fruit of Ti and Do. Presumably you’ve read all my posts and examined some articles or whatnot somewhere that prompted this latest post claiming it as heracy and you have stated why, having to do with the 7th Angel/trumphet sounding, which I will address shortly following a few more days of study. I’ve been so occupied with so many other parts of revelations and the new and old testement over the last x years, in which no one has ever expressed what you have, so I have not had reason to dig into those depictions of the Kingdom of God’s manefestation of prophecy. So the time is right now I guess but as you know that’s a big topic that like most everything biblical is wrought with contraversy among Christians.

Now, perhaps I have not been clear about my position on Paul, which I believe in part was/is Do’s position though that’s not to say everyting I might think/say about Paul can be assumed to be Do’s position as my experience with Do tells me I’d have to bring up to him each position I was taking independently as Do did quote one Paul quote once as his being supportive of it’s coming from the Kingdom of God’s representatives. Our time with Ti and Do for 10 years and then with Do for the next 9 (for me) seldom had in debth talk about particular scriptures and when there was, it was 99% from the red letters – what Jesus was quoted to have said.

Now it was from Do that I got the idea that Saul was entrapped by Lucifer. Do didn’t say why that I recall. Like I said, we had little Bible talk in detail. Now, if that makes you think He is automatically disqualified from being from the Kingdom of God, that’s you choice but if you see how many times Jesus quoted the OT, it didn’t seem to dominate the conversations the disciples noted or repeated that became inscripted.

It was after I had left Do and the group in 1994 and then after they “layed down their physical containers(bodies) that I gradually over years, beginning to come back to talking to Do in my head again and moving into wanting to be in their service again that I began to dig into scripture again. (while with Do, He at times did assign students to dig into scriptures and I was one of those and presented a report to the group on my study of the terms Resurrection, regeneration, raised up once. And while we were on the road, myself with a partner Ti and Do assigned me to spreak their message with, which was in 1975-6 I did a great deal of red letter study and have many debates with many dozens of churches across the US, which was my biggest burst of bible study at that point in my life.

So when I examined Saul/Paul it wasn’t too hard to see the inconsistancies with Jesus, but that’s because I believed in Do so believed Saul was used by the lower forces to dilute and bring the antichrist (Lucifer and his fallen angels) hatred of the teachings of Jesus to light, by making this hater of Jesus and his disciples into a populist preacher, though any talk of jesus was then unpopular and resulted in Pauls martyrdom. Now this being said, doesn’t mean in any shape or form that Paul didn’t become a genuine believer in Jesus and nor does it mean that everything that Paul said was unreferencable to what Jesus said.

What so many do which is encouraged by the lower forces is to find one or two reasons to disqualify something to otherwise consider and thereby block all date related to whatever the subject of the data is. Athesists who hate some of the aspects of religions often deny the planet had to have been created by hightly intelligent supreme beings that were called in history the Kingdom of God. Many would rather believe Jesus never existed than consider that what many hate about religion and christianity in particular is those in such religions that demonstrate an absolute certainty that they understand reality, past, present and future, so claim the earth is just 6000 to 7000 years old, when there is lots of scientific evidence it is much older. And then as you know, all the hypocriciies of the organized church in the burning of so called witches and killings in the crusades, etc. which to me were not doing anything close to what Jesus said to think, say and do. It’s what the Luciferians do to try to get humans to see anything but the truth and the Kingdom of God sets this up as part of the formula that helps us “plants” grow. We have this “advasary”(satan) to spar agaisnt to build our armour through, what Ti called a “muscle” and a process like churning the cream to make butter or using great fire to purify the iron ore into steel or to get Gold from the ore.

Now I believe there is lots of evidence that many christians hold to the “word”, the bible in such a way that actually blinds them to the newness that Jesus would represent in any next coming which there is much scriptural evidence of.

After all what are the characteristics, according to Jesus of would be false prophets: In summary, some will say they are actually Jesus the Christ. They will appear to be sheep but inwardly will be ravening wolves(after the genuine sheep to trick them to follow them rather than the genuine shepherd). And how do they portray being sheep? They wear sheeps clothing. In other words they appear to us as sheep. No where is that more obvious in many of the religious leaders of any and all faiths, but their fruit gives them away. Their fruit is not just what they say, but what they DO. If they talk about going after Osama Bin Laden because he is a devil to kill him and they call themselves christians then their fruit is certainly not from the “good” tree that came from our Father’s kingdom as we had that old lesson, Thou shall not kill. If they set up a huge institution, a mega church and they trade in real estate and don’t pay taxes and accumulate riches they stash away in banks, are they at all demonstrating the fruit Jesus would say was fruit? No, No, No and that is pretty clear. But if they give humanitarian help to whoever asks then in that way they are demonstrating some of what Jesus said to do in “love your neighbor as yourself”, the term love here must be with action as saying it and not walking the talk is against Jesus who said, “you praise me with your words but your heart is far from me” and many other scriptures.

If we lend to someone and charge them interest, we are not demonstrating having Kingdom of God tree fruit.

So if we look at the behavior and ways over 24 years of Ti and Do what will we see?

I’m almost willing to bet you and Marianne and hopefull watcher have never gone to heavensgate.com to see what Ti and Do and students actually said and did over 24 years to determine if it resembled the Kingdom of God’s fruit or the kIngdom of Human as largly morphed into the kingdom of the luciferians fruit.

The luciferians try to stick very close to what the Kingdom of God last did on Earth, so they create facsimili leaders. They often talk about Jesus and do humanitarian things and such and if there are some that want to give their all to God, they see to it that an organization exists to give some a way to make their giving their all into an acceptible and even highly esteemed effort. They have schools that teach scripture, (though they stay locked in a very particular opinion/translation about scripture and select primarily the scriptures they can most easily justify for the masses, so the monks,nuns, priests, ministers, bible teachers will be respected and listened to. This way, when the real deal comes again, most will have accepted programming that it could only be real if it happens just this one way.

So what does the kingdom of God do. They come in almost an opposite way as most think and for those that know that the kigndom of god most always comes by taking a human physical body to have a face to face relatinship with it’s students, they see to it that so many come wearing holy garb and lofty soft talk, peaceful demeanor , etc. that there’s hardly a chance to really see the truth, EXCEPT there is always a more than fair and equal chance to see the truth through all the disguises but it won’t be done by the Lord hitting us with a laser light to blind us so that we can know who is boss. That would be a major manipulation. That’s like shining a bright light at a deer and then when they are shocked by it, shooting them down.

Jesus said himself he had kept all his Father gave him, the 11. So what did he do, after he ascended into that spacecraft, decide that he needed this one that was seeking to murder those who believed in him. What was Jesus doing testing his disciples who were trusting him with their very physical and soul lives, to then have Paul come to Jerusalem claiming to be an appointed teacher of Jesus news, when he never sat with jesus,never cried with him or ate with him nor witnesses any of the things he said and did over some 3 1/2 years? No wonder those who were with Jesus were as it says in acts, “afraid” of him. No wonder they didn’t want to appoint him as a teacher(apostle).

And then he goes and tells some who he had made into his flock he is an apostle as much as any of the others. And he then tells some to “look to me” as an elder in christ, etc. or for whether to stay married or to be celebate or not like him (putting himself on a pedestal, as we see throughout all the religions and that jesus nailed, which is the reason they often sought to kill him, though he wasn’t ready. He knew His father would let him know when it was exit time. He said in John’s gospel, regarding “laying down his life” that “NO MAN TAKES IT FROM ME”. He said HE WAS LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE BECAUSE HIS FATHER ASKED HIM TO.

If paul was such an example of an apostle then why in hell didn’t he quote Jesus? Well, one could say, because he didnt’ hear anything Jesus said. But he was with Peter wasnt’ he, assuming that was the same peter that was with Jesus. I believe it was. In fact, I’d bet the few things he did say that sound like signature jesus, as they would be things that he didnt’ get from his study of OT scripture must have come from Peter or one of the other close students which could have been any of the 70+ Jesus sent out.

Paul primarily teaches Pharisee Judism using the name of Jesus, in recognition that he is the messiah and that he really did rise from the dead. He was convinced he was serving jesus. That’s exactly what the Luciferians want to do.

In revelations you know who I think is represented by the phrase, “false prophet”? It’s not one person as so many say, just like antichrist doesn’t have one embodyment. It’s the catch all term for all who are religious and spiritual who claim to be a mouthpiece for God or the cosmic christ consciousness whose FRUIT doesn’t match the fruit of the true members from the Kingdom of God.

Now does that mean that all those who call for peace are demonstrating the fruit Jesus was referring to. After all he blesses the peacemakers and said to treat one another peacefullly but he actaully said he didn’t come to bring peace but a sword that sets at varience members in the same family. Why? How could that be the real jesus? Because he was providing a bonding to a new branch, a new family, that was a many membered family, except his relatives were only those that also believed and trusted and sought to beccome full time servants of the Kingodm of God according to the qualifications of membership laid down and demonstrated since Adam’s “missing of the mark”(sin).

At this point especially Paul’s letters are a major distraction as is much of the OT. Lucifer has christians so confused while they insist they have it all together.

Lucifer is the one that made what jesus came to do look like a country club. Go to the club every sunday and mingle with fellow believers who all feel so good about themselves and being saved so they can count on going to heaven to be with this guy Jesus who loved them so much he let them mutilate and murder him while hardling paying any attention to anythng he actually said to do to be his disciple. But we don’t want to look at those things. they are too hard, they are fed by lucifer subconsciously by this idea that “he did it for us” so it’s even an ego that thinks one must EARN their seat in Heaven OR for those that know they must show “works” , we’ll tithe so our missionaries can go to africa to “save” their souls. jesus spoke to those doing that then and said they also would be “standing up again”(ressurecting, one this words primarny meanings), but this time they don’t wear the yamaka and celbrate with a shofar and menora. Now they have added any number of props and for those that knew the props were from Lucifer, like those who left the Catholic fold, they are still potentially trapped by being glued to 2000 yr old terminology that has come through multiple translations but that the Kigndom of God saw to it still held the core teachings of the Kingdom of God but most trustworthy in what’s been termed the red letters of the 4 gospels and anything else that has direct cross references to the same exact thinking and acting, the Fruit.

on September 28, 2011 at 5:56 am | Reply  sawyer
I know you weren’t addressing me in this, and you may resent hearing my tone of offerring of another way of seeing things, but the way you seem to be talking here is reminicent of the way I observe you talk about me and the subject of this blog, Heaven’s gate and Henry’s claim that it’s heretical, so I feel obligated to point out my opinion that your way of expression sounds to me so absolutely certain in areas I see as having lots of room for greater or broader understanding. So here is what I offer in this regard:

When The Father or Lord say something through one of their prophets or through those that are greater than what we call Prophets, like Moses and Jesus, I guarantee that even if it’s in story form or looks metaphorical or figurative IT IS A POINTER TO SOMETHING THAT IS VERY VERY LITERALLY APPLICABLE – REAL, True. When someone dies, does something about them continue to exist? A Soul, or a Spirit? If they were murdered and they know it was unjust and God can still hear their sense of the injustice, isn’t that their “blood calling or crying out”. Cry doesn’t necessarily mean tears., like they are sitting around balling their eyes out. However for some who die they may be suspended in a type of perpetual horror at wwhat they experienced. Whenever anyone says something Absolute, they are most always seeing it in a very limited fashion. I believe there is one exception I’m aware of now but could be wrong. when we absolutely express what we don’t know or absolutely know that nothing is impossible for God or that God does not play games with us, like tell us something that is false to test us. We can be sure that this world as we know it didn’t “just happen” like from an unorchestrated big bang, but could God have created a “big bang”, of that I am absolutely sure. I believe it’s important to God that we learn to recognize and restrain our desire to be an authority figure. I now it can seem that since I have somethng to say to everything and present my views as having some authority that I think I am an authority. Well lets say the truth is that I do still have an ego so I do slip and say things like I know them when if push came to shove it is likly I may not. Now this isn’t referring to “experiences” though it would apply to the interpretations of experiences which is why it behooves us to try to be as accurate as we can be when talking about scriptural interpretation which requires looking into the background of the English terms in their latin/greek and/or hebrew origins.

on September 28, 2011 at 6:54 am | Reply  sawyer
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Henry, I believe some of the potential answers to some of what you question is in the more correct translation of terms. The terms Resurrection means, to “stand up again”. The origin of the idea of “standing” is literal and figurative. When we stand up for an idea or someone we are standing for them. To stand is to not sit or lie down. It’s literal and applicable to our physicality.

When jesus said we had to be born again of flesh in order to be born again of soul/spirit/Holy Mind(greek pneuma) that’s a fairly concrete evidence that wome were to have a new physical experience. But Chritians who give Paul the weight of Jesus refer to Paul’s saying, it’s given man once to die, which I believe stems from Isiah, but correct me if I am mistaken there, but Jesus did quote Isiah so I don’t doubt that has it’s accuracy. However, actually both can be true I believe. WE can be born again in flesh and still only be given once to die. The key is that the “we” in born again in flesh is the person of the soul (body), the different kind of flesh Paul spoke of, though I believe there are all kinds of different kinds of flesh in the kingdom of God, but I got that largely from Ti and Do whom you all don’t respect so I don’t expect you to consider that.

So if those that died while and because of preaching Jesus to people tha t hated to hear about Jesus, thus “died in christ” rise first is it not possible this is the same scenerio as when Jesus said there would be a resurrection(rising – standing up again) by both the just and the unjust and that can happen in two ways. 1) The Kingdom of God brings back the previously “saved in abrahams bosum/greek paradosa”, part of the localized heaven’s(sky), and picks some of the new humans these souls are to associate with, to take over, “ride like horses”, to further their overcoming of their human carnal nature. Meanwhile the physial bodies they are to associate with are the genetic carry forth of the same genetic strain of flesh that was as leaves on the human tree while jesus was physicall present, some of which were given soul/seeds at that time. Ti and Do said that the Next Level Above Human plans that the souls they wish to bring back for their next lesson step, they referred to as a trimester in a three trimester literal soul birth program needed to have physical bodies that would also be given soul seeding for the first time, a soul being a pocket or container (new wineskin) that holds only Holy Mind (new wine) and are a “match” for the lesson stage of the returning Soul.

Thus being born of flesh that Jesus said his disciples had to experience meant they (the souls) needed to literally “take over” – Do joked about it as a type of “body snatching”, also part of the idea of being “caught away” (raptured), though Do said that had more application to the process of the Kingdom of God pulling some out of their human world, which was demonstrated by Jesus saying to some, “follow me” and they did, dropping whatever they were doing and even leaving family and possessions, etc. behind to be with Jesus literally. That was being raptured, caught away from the world to no longer be in it, though having come from it.

Where this is confusing and this is always hard for me to express is that there is also the part of “meeting the lord in the air”, which was another way that Jesus spoke to when he said, some would be resurrected to life while others would be resurrected to death.

This I believe is talking about the “spirit/soul birth”. The depiction of a soul birth requires death of the physical body the returnign soul has taken over. Taking it over includeds not letting one’s vehicle do things against the Kigndom of God commandments but it also means the soul is overriding that vehicles(body’s) inheriant desire to live which means they are wllling to “take up their cross” and be hated and be killed (die in service to christ) which includes being permitted to lay their body down FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD/HEAVEN’S SAKE.

So if death of the physical body is required to be born of spirit/soul hat that would explain being caught up to meet the lord in the air, air being within the heaven(sky) part of the Earth’s overall atmosphere. This is in line with the revelations depiction of the harvest of souls in rev 14 that the angels use a sickle to cut the wheat stalk the wheat stalk then representing the physical body that the Soul had taken over and overcome it’s otherwise normal human fate. And Jesus also said that a wheat of corn needs to die to produce fruit and he of course demonstrated that himself, except his demonstration was to also establishe without a doubt that the Kingdom of God was a physicall kingdom. So for someone like Jesus said, who came from the Kigndom of God, they are the only ones that leave by ascending as he did though it’s normal for them to come physically and leave physically, though that’s rarely witnesses by many when that is the appropriate step.

Lucifer is intent on getting the elect to think that heaven is a spiritual kingdom. It doesn’t matter how illogical the idea is. So people walk around thiking they will die and be with the lord in heaven, that is if they lived a good life. Well, that has it’s truth if before that person died the kingdom of God determned that they had accomplished enough of a “good” life though the heaven is not “eternal” yet as they still have to be brought back to have a rigerous training program that includes overcomign their humanness in behavior and ways and even their attachment to life and ther family tree. If Lucifer can’t get us to think of God as a spirit alone or as the kingdom being a spirtual kingdom then the next best thing besides athesism is to think all believers will be ascended into the clouds to be with Jesus or that Jesus was in a ufo to take them up, which has some truth to it, but is confused because the space aliens are actually the fallen angels and the human and human equivilents bred to be their slaves, their being outside physical vehicles of their own, though they can take over some human vehicles as needed, though they gravitate to those that have the most influence over the most humans.

on September 29, 2011 at 3:41 pm | Reply  Henry
Sawyer,
You are going about things the wrong way. What it seems you are attempting to do is to validate the “ministry” of your so-called two witnesses by what they claimed and also based on the lenght of time they have been building this “ministry”.

What we should first do however is to examine whether these could conceivably be the two witnesses not based on what they have claimed but based on what SCRIPTURE says. Now, you have accused me of seeking to be an “authority” on different suggests but what I will say to you is that on the contrary I am to establish scripture as the only authority on any subject I raise here.

You have said that I have rejected your claims about the two witnesses based on “petty summations” etc but it matters not what they may have said, done or written. The first port of call is to examine whether these could be the two witnesses before even bothering to disect their claims. Lets look at it another way – if some person suddenly arrive on the scene and claims to be Christ do you give them audience first to see if their claims sound plausible? My answer to that is no Instead what I would do is see what scripture said on the matter. Does scripture say that Christ can suddenly appear on the scene and start to build a following? Does scripture give us a means to identify Christ when He comes? Does scripture tell us how Christ coming will be and what He will do when He comes? These are the questions I would seek to have answered before entertaining a Christ claimant for some 24 years. This is why I do not need to study anymore about your group and your teachings and belief.

SCRIPTURE is the only authority I need to reject such a Christ claimant who does not fulfil the prophetic words of scripture. When Christ returns all eyes SHALL behold Him and He will not return in scret prior to that appointed time. He said so clearly in His word in Matthew 24. He has stated clearly that we should not believe anyone who comes and claim to be Christ or anyone saying He is here or there.

on October 3, 2011 at 11:15 am | Reply  Henry
Sawyer,
Further to my last comment let me say that I delete your comments because this blog is about sharing in the gospel of Jesus Christ – but it seems you are more eager to promote the doctrine of your “two witnesses” and therefore does not fulfill the objectives of this blog.

Why do I brand your doctrine heretical? Heresy means “an opinion or belief that contradicts established religious teaching” – what you believe is not in conformity to Christ’s teachings and that is the truth. I do not condemn you as a judge condemns a criminal but if you put yourself outside of the Grace of Christ they yes, scripture says you are already condemned. But I want to show you the truth that you may not be condemned.

On your blog you wrote that Jesus is a space alien (ufonaut) from an advanced futuristic society “whose purpose it is to grow soul seeds they plant into new members via their voluntary participation in an “overcoming” experiential classroom that ultimately requires cutting our human roots in thought, word and deed.” This view of Christ does not conform to Christian orthodoxy and is therefore heretical. In fact you are talking about an entirely different Jesus here and not the one from the Bible.

Why does it not conform? It is not the Gospel of our Lord. What you have stated here is not in the Bible. Jesus the Son of God came into the world to die so that whoever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life. He was made a living sacrifice to make amends for the sins of the world through the Grace of God. If we believe in this Jesus, that He died and rose again on the third day and ascended into heaven we may inherit eternal life – we must believe and repent of our sinss and receive Him into our hearts in order to be saved.

When we die in this life we do not merely shed a skin or a suit of clothing in order to take on a new one somewhere else as you believe. However, Jesus will again raise the said body we shed just as He raised Lazurus – it is this same old body that will enter into judgement. Those that are in Christ will have this old body transformed and made incorruptible but those that fall outside of His grace will be punished in hell. Those that gave their lives back in 1997 to be on a mother ship are not on any such ship – they are dead and awaiting the resurrection into the same body they left when Christ returns.

Talking of Christ’s return, again there is much confusion on your part concerning this. You have completely misunderstood what the scriptures were saying when they said that Christ would return as the lightening flashes from east to west. You interpreted this to mean that Christ would come as a light to those who can see Him. Not so! This scripture litterally meant that Christ will descend from the Heavens such that all eyes on earth shall see Him coming in the same way we see the lightening flashing across the sky. I hope you will consider these things and check what you believe in against scriptures and not attempt to strectch scripture to fit what you believe in.

on October 5, 2011 at 2:44 am | Reply  Hopeful_watcher
The jesus as a space being is an interesting concept, because I believe that a false Christ will present himself and that’ll be exactly how he comes. If so, there will be a lot of people, Sawyer being one if them, who fall for the lie.

on October 5, 2011 at 4:38 am  sawyer
That’s exactly right. Those that are most “electible” by the Kingdom of God to be on their team are those that are ready to understand that the Kingdom of God is REAL, not spiritual (confusing because it’s actually both), but REAL in that they have physical bodies, which Paul said as well (one of the few things he said that have real substance and don’t dilute what Jesus worked so hard to establish, that of course he didn’t know he was doing).

So where are these. Well, you won’t find many singing a strictly Christian line as most Christians don’t really know how to think about the Kingdom of God in a real way. It’s all about being raptured, ascended in their dead decaying bodies being brought out of the grave so they can be lifted up physically to meet Jesus who will be suspended in his 2000 yr old body that still shows it’s wounds, so they can check him out. Some know better than this fantasy but don’t have much of a clue how it can be different, and if they do, they either keep it to themselves so not to lose their job with clergy or whatnot, embarrass themselves with their peers, etc.

So the ones that are most in line see through the traditional christian view, as I just outlined just as the ones who were in line to SEE the real deal in Jesus as the Messiah were those that had not become entrenched in religio-spiritualism 2000 yrs ago, similar scenerio. The jewish leaders said over and over to jesus, “your changing what moses said so you must be the anti-moses, if you know what I mean, when Jesus was saying, “nope, I’m here to fulfill and bring you what’s next” if you want to qualify (become worthy) to reap the promised reward for all those who overcome.

So where do we find these. Well, they are spread out into all ways of thinking as they were the biggest seekers looking for the truth. And many got caught up in other religions, hindu, buddhist, islam, etc. while some became atheists and agnostics and some ceased looking, ceased “watching” “observing” so when the real deal came along and hit the national news, they weren’t looking or were entrapped by the “cares of the world” so the seed they were given could not sprout as easily, though it ain’t over til it’s over for anyone, but we must all be willing to break out of our comfort zone big time and ask God to help us SEE and that’s not exclusively by studying the records as intellectual understanding is limited by one’s experience.

And it’s true the Luciferians mounted their attack and planned what to do before the return in the ways they knew how by their past experience with the Kingdom of God whom they deny is the Kingdom of God because otherwise they couldn’t justify going against Them as they do. They are the space aliens we hear about left and right since the late 50’s in a highly accellerated way because that’s when they were allowed to be loose among humans, in sync with the arrival of the Kingdom of God’s team, Admiral and Captain and crew(saints, those who died on their behalf at any time previous but mostly 2000 yrs ago).

The Luciferians are the fallen angels of genesis and are the propogators of all antichrist behavior and ways though they talk peace and love galore.

The Luciferians, who are not one organized group at all. They are renegades and there are seldome going to be able to coordinate with one another. They are all lumped into Luciferian Space Aliens because they were all founded in their ancestry that continues on in the seed they left via reproducing with humans or by spreading their deciet and addicting humans to be slaves of their passions, their carnal flesh nature.

Where you find the most humanitarianism and peace and kindness in behavior are the “meek”, so Luciferians have comondeered their loyalties by helping them become successful in writing books or leading meditations or singing in kirtans or in joining the peace corps or in bible studies and evangelical work, helping the sick, doing good t hings for their fellow man but thereby thinking of having found their niche on how to be in god’s favour in whatever terminology.

Those that dove into study of scripture,etc. often locked themselves away from the truth because they became addicted to their own perceptions,like Jesus said, “thanks for enabling the simple minded to undersand vs the intellectuals”. It is all very simple.

when someone comes and says, “time to give your all” – “I’m from outer space, the literal heavens” here to take you out of here asap” “Got to leave it all behind and give me you undivided attention”. “you will be hated for doing so but that’s part of what you must endure” “And if they kill you because of it, then you got a boarding pass” “oh, and you come to me alone – no wife or husband as we dont’ do that in the next kingdom and no children as they can’t decide to take this kind of huge step” “my father will help find them someone to take extra good care of them, trust me on that” “our kingdom is many membered and we have physical bodies so will be leaving on what humans would call a spacecraft, though don’t know who will witness it.

These ways of thinking when announced to people, for those who are still looking and not entrenched in their human lives and have some roots in their genetic structures to the last time the Kingdom fo God physicaly took over human vehicles to do a task, are recognized. They know theri shepard’s voice so they don’t need convincing or proof. They exect to give their ALL. They expect to die doing so as that is what’s in their genetic memory banks and/or the memory of the souls from last time. They have this sense and faith that their phyiscal body is not them entirely and they have subconcious trust in God in this way.

Meanwhile, the Luciferians are stimulating emmisaries that appear to be the returned christ. They come saying, “I’m jesus”, or they infer it, when they realize that Jesus said he’d have a new name upon his return and that his return would be as a “son of man” in other words in the flesh again.

So cults thrive left and right and when does that peak. In the late 60’s early 70’s. When did Ti and Do meet and leave houston together knowing they had a wild task to do together, that they knew they were from outer space and knew they were here to bring updates and to fulfill prophecy in the bible, yet didn’t know yet what prophecy. they knew that each individual that wanted to go to heaven needed to go through their own christening, a trial by fire as it says in Isiah and Malachi and micah (one or two of them i believe). which amounts to mimicing christ in behaviour and ways, to do as he did, to give themselves totally to the Lord.

Then we see the world changing like crazy too. Civil rights flourishign with lots of battles, health consciousness, etc. In fact in every department of human life there were advances and sure those advances started well before the 60’s but are actually kind of traceible to the turn of the 20th century.

and isnt’ in interesting that in 1898 in a sleepy TEXAS town. Texas means the captains chamber on a ship. there was recorded in the newpaper that there was a crashed ufo and a being in it that died in the crash and was buried and is said to have a gravemarker.

I’d bet that was the Father Ti, coming in to set things up in the unseen world and in their invisible spacecraft.

Then with the roswell and aztec crashes 22 or so more.

And then by the 60’s most of the crashes had ceased. Those were the Captain and saints coming in, dropping the phyical bodies they were given in the process because they were looking to earn a new one that was incorruptible so they had to learn how to make their minds incorruptible by takign over a prepared chosen human horse and overcoming it, riding, the battle that would actually enable the growth of the soul seed they were given to hold the new wine they would get when they were physically with the Older Members (Admiral and captan) following with them everywhere they went, washing their brains, their suits of clothing, making them white by the sweat and self sacrifice of the soul who was the same soul as was in Jesus’ vehicle.

But the luciferians did not stop. The kingdom of god actually assigned each of these who joined with these two an advasary to challenge them while they regulated how much they could challenge them so not so lose them unless they ceases seeking help – the reason I flunked out.

What does lucifer do. He works all angels. He gets some to look at religions and say, that’s an illusion. This plaent is more than 6000 yrs old thus they must be blind sheep with mutated genes thus there must not be a creator. Got em! And then he says to some of the cream of the crop, YOU have it all within you. The kingdom of God is within you like JEEZus said. they love to quote one or two things jesus said. What jesus meant is that the kingdom of God gifts a human their seed, which is actually a soul, which is really that new wineskin to hold the new “holy mind/spirit” that the current representatie will dish out when we thirst to receive it.

The to christians he ties them up every which way, thinking all they need to do to be on the receiving end of God’s glory is to believe and pray for others and do some good works, give to the poor, confess our sins, try to do better and study jesus words while keeping the 10 commandments, all good things and in the first stage those things do have us gaining some control over our physical bodies and especially when the world is morphing into hedonism as a norm, pleasure seeking like it’s never before been seen but actually comparible to the last time the kingdom of god and the luciferians were allowed to be present. And religious worship for some who have overcome addictions or bad behaviors to wards others or abuses or others mentally or havign been abused seeking help is great for them, but then if they dont’keep their eyes and ears open and ask the Lord for what’s next for them to get closer to the Lord then the lord will still show them the next step but doesn’t force them to drink that water that satisfys that real thirst.

The real deal doesn’t need us to believe in them. The space aliens thrive on gettign humans to belive in them. The reports indicate they want/need humans becaus their planet is dying. Well yeah, that’s what the Next Level does when they decide the planet can no longer serve them as a garden. They either let it go or they make it change into something else but they always keep a door open for some to follow them to theri next garden start up project. They create the little wormhole to traverse a great distance in a snap and then they find the next planet teaming with life.

And the space aliens say they are from x star system. The Kingdom fo God are not from one star system. They “have no place to lay their heads” because they don’t sleep anyway nor do they have families like humans (while the space aliens do have families with children). The space aliens say they live much like humans. They eat and drink to survice and reproduce, which is why they need human dna, eggs, sperm. And they genuinely want humans to treat theri environment better becuse they think their planet went down hill because of their abuse of the planet, which no doubt there is some truth to, but I’m bet the greater reason is because the next level didn’t want to fix the problems the humans created with their nukes and toxic water and toxic food and drug addictions, lega or illegal, pollutions, and animal coveting behaviours, even arrogance, etc.
The garden becomes infested with weeds and simply needs retiling which is also what the members of the Kingdom of God say must come. Jesus said it and Ti andDo said it but niether stressed it or predicted dates as humans do.

When someone gets the “change of their mind” and thinks, “could it really be…” it feels as if one is losing their mind in some ways, can even blow a circut perhaps. I know I’ve felt that at times. It was years into beign with Ti and Do,while having seen and thought I understood the use of the term UFO’s being a craft of some sort, brought in a book called, crash at aztec and made it requireed reading. After maybe a week or reading it and with Do talking about it as part of the student body, it hit me….”could it be this is real, this alien stuff”. After all, I had been with The UFO cult for years by then and only then did I really open up to it as referring to something real. The crash at aztec new mexico had 18 bodies found and The FBI put out a memo that eventually leaked out. But there were autopsies and the book was huge with all this data. I think that crash was 1948 a year or so after roswell. I’d bet Roswell was Do and three of his closest students, perhaps peter, john and james or before that aaron, miriam and joshua. Just a guess. I know one of those bodies when autopsied blew Leonard Stringfields mind as it had no digestive or reproductive organs so they determined it was a robot as it also did not have flesh as humans thougth of flesh. Do didn’t say, but I suspect that was his vehicle, the one he was “sacrificing” for the task so he could take the human vehicle called Jesus that he came into completly at the john the baptist event so that he could then sacrifice it so his students and all who believed afterward had a chance to connect to his vine, his family tree that is not of this world.

So now that they left , but are coming back I believe, as the second coming was 1) blowign of the trumphet to get the “dead in christ” and then those who remained and believed and took the new names into their minds and when they were faced with it did not deny those names, which is yet to come once the green horse world leader comes to the stage which I suspect will be when the Luciferians are full steam ahead and are even going to announce the space aliens existence that will blow many minds and cause those that refuse to believe it to riot like never before to where anyone who believes in anythng from outer space will be on a hit list as being unstable and/or in league with the aliens.

Then after this and if christiasn thinking that they will leave before the tribulation haven’t realized they are in the tribulation, then they are totally blind.

But then when everyone has had plenty of opportunity to look at Ti and Do as who they are to decide for themselves, then Ti and Do and crew will come in and by then all the weeds and those that hate god in one way or another will have died from fear or from anothers hand and of course as natural deaths always occur, but the tares will all be gone. The only ones left will be the believers in Ti and Do. I’ll be dead, my vehicle that is as I need to prove myself by preachign the word until either my vehicle gives up but it’s more likley I’ll be arrested at some point and/or just shot whcih I don’t look forward to though in a way I do because if we don’t hate what we see going on in the world now it’s because the Next Level is keeping it down for a while yet in judea (the US but mostly west of the mississsippi) approx size of new jerusalem.

By then the Luciferians and the humans who most serve them unknowingly or knowingly will be dead or underground in some bunker – the bottomless pit and they will be chained there and a seal put on the cavern so they can’t communicate in any way to anyone on the surface, by thought as the infastruture of communications will be gone or inopperable as there will be all sorts of geogrpahical catastrophes right in line with all of this.

Oh, and look at some who to date are claimign to be jesus or the maitreya. Rael who actually says he was taken on a spacecraft and heard stories by some of a battle between someone names satan and lucifer. And who don’t create planets but outlive them becaus they by their technooogy can clone new bodies fsrom theri own dna that they can then move into. Yet they call themselvs the elohim from genesis but they don’t create planets. I couldn’t believe they just said this major inconsistancy. I think they can’t really see that there is a kingdom of God who created the planets and they dont’ want to be held to saying they do as then why can’t they fix global warming and such, so they tell half truthes. So now all these people who are atunned to the Kigndom of God having physical membership, thinking Rael has the keys so they are signing over theri will’s to rael and whatnot but he is doing nothing like Jesus did and yet everything like the catholics with a new age mix, whcih of course ti adn do are accused of too though they are millions of miles apart in every way which I could write another 5000 words giving examples of.

And alex collier is another one for the arturans. he insinuates he is a jesus for hsi alien friends.

and on and on and on, there are a bunch.

and we have the david icke’s who are teachign “mediation” is the answer – another illusion.

“believe if or not”

on October 5, 2011 at 4:54 am | Reply  sawyer
so are you going to delete my RESPONSE to hopeful watcher because he spoke of aliens and claimed i am an alien follower? Do I have to find a biblical passage to justify everything I say. I pretty much can but few will see it because few want to see it so they block it from registering.

I would response to the rest of your comment but I guess it’s a waste of time as you just want to be the judge and jury and fine, it’s your blog. I’ll post what I have written so those that do have eyes to see can see what I’ve said to you all.

But I know that you don’t know anything. YOu talk like you do but you are speaking from a dead perspective as there must be no life left in you or you wouln’t just parrot scriptures as if you understood them. Even your explanations jsut say the same thing becasue you don’t know how to see it differently and I don’t fault you for it but NOW you could know better so you will be judged by the Kingdom of God, still not by me because that is not my job or capacity I have been given. But you seem to love lording over and proably think I am doing that. But for the record saying that Ti and Do’s information is heretical if is is what I say it is, (which I don’t doubt by say that because you do) is the ultimate blasphemy and you will be held accountable for telling others that in a public forum. It’s one thing to think it or believe it. It’s another to influence others. The Kingdom of God will tolerate that just so long becore your vehicle is pulled up and then when that happens you will also be shown the truth which will be a torment to see but then your spirit will not be able to reverse that torment and it will be as if it is heppenign for enterity because youk will be out of time. Now, I won’t have any hand in dishing this out to anyone nor to I wish it upon you. I actually wish even if you don’t ever believe in Ti and Do that you cease condeming them and those that do believe by the posting of blog entries like you have. But if you insist on doing so, well then you can’t say you were not given fair warning. I actually say this for yorur sake. YOu will probably delete it anyway to save face with yoru few readers and I don’t care to hear any respnse either so it’s just betwen you and the one true kingdom of God the FAther and Son.

Planet X, Niribu, Blue Kachina,12th Planet = Last Return of Ti(Father), Do(Jesus) and Crew as Prophesized

October 1, 2011

The following is a post I made to: http://www.paranormalexperiences.net/event/4

having been invited to attend a UFO lecture event. I wrote far more in the comment than the textbox could handle so I am posting the full text here. Kevin is then name of the host of the Project PE website event I was invited to. If you click that link above I don’t know what you will get as one does have to register and signin to get to that screen.

Sawyer’s comment:

Hello Kevin – I guess I missed this last event with UFO author Leslie Kean. Let me just say, at this point that I am on the receiving end of a most extraordinary perspective in regards to an upcoming event that will literally turn the entire globe into mayhem many times what is being experienced now, though I know for many people on the planet it can’t get any worse. Mostly what I am saying will be United States centered this time. This has to do with what’s been called Planet X or Nirabu or the 12th Planet or the Death Star or the Blue Katchina. By my choice I am working for the occupants of an approaching armada and my broadcasting this publically will only result in my being “witch” hunted in the not too distant future. The hunters will be both governmental and/or Christian because as we speak governments are preparing to mount an attack on the approaching armada, thus anyone that even remotely associates themselves with Them will be sought after as the enemy. I know this sounds like a nice modern sci-fi mystery novel and of course aspects of it have been used by many in all media forms, actually over the course of any number of Earth civilizations as well as on many other planets, as what’s about to occur is nothing new to the Leaders of the armada. It’s simply the last phase in Civilization development that also coincides with the Civilization’s recycling.

I receive key information packets via dreams that then broaden in meaning as I research historic records and interact with others and observe current events. At this point I don’t claim to have an exact perspective of how this general understanding will unfold as it may unfold in any number of ways and actually in all ways, depending on the mindset and desires of the recipients, we people from Earth. I will say that the people that are behind what we are calling Planet X, etc. are not at all related to any of the people from space that associate themselves with a particular star/planetary system. Those from planets like Earth are all equivilent to humans on Earth, biologically and in mindset, needs and desires, though the Planet X people have provided their mindset, characteristics, behaviors and ways to ALL over what to us can only be described as an infinite time as They exist outside any time continuem. The people inside Planet X have physical bodies but can also be invisible to our eyes. They are the group that are responsible for our entire reality of whatever density, material and etheric though we were developed to come to understand Them by our own desire/thirst to know and subsequent experiences, thus our free will. Because they designed our mental/physical environment as a temporary free willed existence some have chose to oppose Them and have sown their own seeds of rebellion which is allowed to continue as it serves to give all the “plants of the garden” the full gamut of choices. Their arrival in full view with their full authority and power marks our final choice that will determine what we are made of, who we choose to give our allegience to, Them or those who hate them. There is no in between any more.

They don’t NEED any of us to believe in Them, nor do they need anything we have, nor do they pretend to be our brothers or sisters to woo us to their allegience and agendas as various humans and human equivilents do. Now, many humans are now the result of the Rebel programming over millenium of time on Earth. I don’t know if it’s even possible for these to comprehend any of what is being talked about here. Many are also entrenched in some facet of thinking/acting that acts as a filter – They fear the big changes that must come to begin to adopt new thinking/acting. The methods of entrenchment are many. All the religions and even atheism and all their sects organized or not, have many pieces to the grand puzzle, thus all can be a pathway to the top of the mountain, so to speak. But when the people I’m speaking of that designed, developed/orchestrated and maintain our reality bring updates periodically to planetary inhabitants, it challenges all within any of these pathways to burst out of their old bubble. When this takes place the representatives from this Evolutionary Level Above Human, the occupants of Planet X, who came to bring the updates and any humans that choose to adopt those updates and begin to attach to a new lifeline that exceeds physically flesh minded lifelines are hated, apprehended and killed but their essence of life, call it spirit but more accurately is actually a structure like a pocket or container that holds mindstuff from those Above Human representatives, is kept from merging with the “spirit world”, to be brought back to a new opportunity to further connect to that new lifeline, for the intended purpose of eventually graduating/being born into membership in that Evolutionary Level Above Human, which is the only real future anyone can acheive.

Life will be changing for all of us. I don’t know the time frame for this. I suspect it will be rather fast at this point, even finished within the next decade or two but the physical approach of the Evolutionary Level Above Human in their armada will be increasingly evident to those that want to see it.

Our children will not have the same kind of life many of us had. We will not see a return to “better times” except in isolated pockets for very short lived periods of time. My vehicle does feel pain and compassion in saying this. I have a 14 yr old daughter and am comfortable with aspects of life though have little, but as hard as it is, we can get through it. It is a fearful prospect and time to our bodies/minds, but there is help available but not through anyone in a human body or through any organization or book or method or pathway or practice or technique or substance or activity per say. (I’m not saying there isn’t value in these things listed, but none of them bring lasting organic help unless one considers burying one’s head in the sand helpful, though one can certainly understand doing so now and again given the horrible way many humans are acting. There is simply more substantial help, even a sense of peacefullness, though peace is not a condition of growth. It’s a behavoral characteristic of a member from the evolutionary level above human but what they thrive on is growth in service as a spoke in the amazing wheels that brought all this about.

The help I am speaking of has had a recent physical manefestation, thus “names” to identify it and act as a current address to send requests to, an address that no one else seen or unseen is allowed to tamper with for a time, and/or become an imposter of. These names and the human vehicles these took to bring the latest updates to Earth through have since been more unjustifiably demonized on Earth more than any other and will be all but impossible for many to even consider asking help from. Now help received will not come as voices in your head nor as a compulsion and will never, ever, ever tell you what to do explicitly and will not be general and will be related to what you specifically ask and will manifest through life experiences, often with a number of confirmations however circumstantial, though also not necessarily what we think we want/need but what will help us further link to their vine/family of Mind.

I will leave you with these names and it will then be up to you to decide to pursue all things related to Them or not and whether or not to genuinely seek their help. We each have a phone line and these names are the phone number to dial.

 The names were names two in human vehicles took and are related to notes in a song. They are Ti and Do, pronounded Tee and Doe.

Sawyer’s experience with sexuality in Ti & Do’s classroom

October 1, 2011

The following is an example of a new believer in Ti and Do, his experience to date and his question about controlling his vehicle’s sensuality, followed by my response:

His Comment and Question:

I still do have a lot to learn. But as for praying and watching for signs/events. I can’t help but say it’s everyday I experience something from The Next Level’s doing. It was only this year I started to pray to Do for the first time. He answers! I love it. The best question I’ve recently asked him was,”Will I ever see a piece of Heaven?” Hoping to see a UFO for the first time in the future. Then a memory came back. Looking into the sky at the age of eight(correction Haha). I was watching the stars with my best friend at the time and his mom. Watching Hale-Bopp Comet orbiting on our side of planet Earth. It shocked me that I’ve already had an answer to my question, the memory of the Hale-Bopp Comet was that piece of Heaven… That’s where is all started.

My next question is the human vehicle and its wants and needs. Sawyer this one is tough for me. Over coming my human vehicle. I’m young, active and athletic. So my sensuality is hard to control. But I’ve been controlling it very well lately. I’m glad I learned my teachings of Heaven’s Gate before it went any further. I know it’s only me in control of my human vehicle, but I guess I’m asking for ways to get my mind off human sensuality. Watching the videos of all the students in the class room made me want to know these minds and their experiences that opened their eyes to God. I wanted to be part of the classroom. I wanted their support to over come my human vehicle. And as for a response is to help them also over come their human vehicle as well. If I ever want to get known for a quote it would be this one.”Help me help you!”  So my next question is,”How did you control your vehicle’s wants and desires?”

Sawyer’s response:

Wow, that’s a big question as the classroom certainly had it’s advantages in this regard but that’s not to say the same help They had is not available to you now. It is, though obviously in a different context, since that particular classroom period has ended for now, though will, after the recycling period start up again. I encourage you to ask that question to Do if you haven’t already, though I will try to give you what He gave us.

But before I get into the question, I want to address something else you said about “hoping to see a UFO for the first time in the future”. I believe I do understand what you meant by that…you want to see something related to the Kingdom of Heaven. And you may be well aware of this, but to do the best job I can do in this correspondance I need to express that, the Luciferian space aliens are, at this time in particular very, very active and are looking to wow those who have elected or even still have the potential to believe in Ti and Do.  Ti and Do said at one point, that was a realization for them in the 1980’s that, (paraphrased:) “Everything that flys, as a UFO is not from our Father’s  Next Level Kingdom, thus should you be in a circumstance sometime in the future where a spacecraft landed and offerred you a visit, seek to know if those occupants are working for Ti and Do or not”. At first, in the 1970’s, Ti and Do thought that if it was a flying saucer or other such physical device that defied human technological accomplishments, that it was from the Next Level. Yet, when they kept on examining the various reports of sightings and abductions and contactee experiences, they kept on questioning many as of Next Level origin. The humans involved were subject to genetic and/or reproductive related experiments with direct implications that subjects had been used for their sperm and eggs in hybridization programs. Subjects were treated in ways that seemed crude and inhumane, spoken to at times in sarcastic ways, potentially implanted with what looked like homing devices, undergoing painful medical examinations, having sex with non-earth looking beings (but were still human equivilents as otherwise there could be no sex). I know this brings up the question, as to why Ti and Do didn’t know more than they did.

Ti and Do explained that their task was in their words an “undercover” one and the information, the steps of understanding and events to instigate were given to them according to their thirst/questions related to what They experienced with the students and what was occurring in the world. If a member of the Next Level were to come with their complete understanding of all things human and pertinent to the Earth and it’s garden setup, it would be like over fertilizing the plants they primarily came to tend and many that otherwise could survive and produce fruit would die instead. Each of the plants (souls) they plant are precious to them and each are tender. Had Ti and Do told us in the beginning that upon joining we would be ingesting a strong barbituate that would kill the vehicle and that we had to be willing to take that step of faith to qualify, many of the vehicles (plants) would have aborted. So Ti and Do did not know, how that was to be their exit method and that’s not so say that had to be the exit method exactly. The biggest criteria to qualify for Next Level crew membership is to be willing to GIVE Our ALL and that ALL was to be determined by the Older Members on duty, in the flesh, and over a significant time period in which to allow each plant their full opportunity to absorb the medicine/fertilizer at a pace they could handle. This is why they have to come undercover to our human eyes, and therefore look and moreorless act just like the rest of us, so they can identify with everything we each experience.

I know some will cry, “See, manipulation…they didn’t tell the whole truth up front for fear they’d lose membership in their cult”. But the facts speak for themselves…Ti and Do were only made aware of next steps as the students displayed readiness for the next step and when it came to a new understanding, as in the Blackhawk tapes I’ve posted on my youtube channel; 3SPM, they always said, “this is our current understanding and it updates some of what we had told you before and there may be updates yet to come but this works for now”. However, right from the beginning they were very, very clear that this task we were accepting required our giving of our ALL and I knew well that included my physical life, though I later learned that not all who even stayed in the classroom for many years considered that they would have to give their physical life…though the way in which I thought of doing so, was by meeting up against those humans who would hate what we were portraying, trying to stop us, by whatever means to include potentially, as TiDo expressed, “doing us in”, which was the prime way in which Ti and Do thought they would be exiting, as they thought was depicted in the Revelations Chapter 11, Two Witnessed prophecy they felt they were fulfilling. And for the record, it could have followed that type of exit method for Ti and Do and for their students as the Next Level doesn’t control anyone. If some humans were of a mind to try to kill Ti and Do’s vehicles and/or their students, then if the Next Level didn’t want that to occur, rather than stop that action from humans they would simply provide the students with safety for as long as it served the task of preparing the graduation class for a viable soul/birth/fruit harvest.

Also, many times throughout the classroom experience Ti and Do knew that certain informational steps would put some to the test of their committment to giving their ALL to the Next Level through them, the current representatives and they talked among themselves (between Ti and Do) about it, that Do later relayed to us after Ti exited her human vehicle. In fact, in late 1976, just months after the classroom period began, (as up until then it was gathering the flock, by holding public meetings), Ti and Do seperated out 19 of the overall 96 who had survived to that point and sent them to a different campground area in Utah, thinking that they needed a different experience than the larger body of students. And they fully intended to still work with them and over the years to follow did but most of these ended up leaving that smaller group while a few of them, Drrody, Stlody, Dymody who were not yet named with the ody extention by then (that by the way was Ti and Do’s instigation, not something new believers now would do), having lost contact with Ti and Do still sought to reconnect until by the “durability” of Drrody (where Drr came from) brought him to the town where the classroom was located, Amarillo, in 1982 or so, to one of the classroom members work place (as many of us by then held jobs in the world), in a hospital, where they recognized one another which led to Drrody and subsequently Stlody and later Dymody’s return to the classroom. There were many concrete examples of how Ti and Do together and Do without Ti’s physical presense sought to provide the impetus for a student to decide to leave the classroom if that had been something that student had already been struggling with, whether they were conscious of it or not. Many had doubts all along and that was to be expected though was something to be overcome as well as anything that by entertaining drew us back into the world and it’s human behaviors.

The life on the garden was organized into kingdom levels; mineral, plant, animal and human and once at the human level the life forms continue to grow/evolve via direct Next Level hands on tending, physically and mentally/spiritually so they stand their best chance to produce the intended fruit of becoming like Next Level members in all ways of thinking and acting that brings about their (TiDo word)”viable” birth into a “trusted” Next Level member, which is when a Soul becomes an individual for the first time, as while human they are comprised of a myrid of (TiDo word)”influences” though think they are not.

This sort of leads to your question as one major aspect of gaining control over the human vehicle, which is accomplished mostly by gaining control over one’s thoughts. Thoughts, conscious and subconscious direct our actions and have their associated feelings.

When you say you want to control your vehicle’s sensual wants and desires, are you saying you wish to not act on those vehicular wants and desires at all? That is the Next Level way for applicants to membership on Ti/Do’s crew. No one will ever be on their crew if they havn’t sufficiently overcome their vehicle’s humanness and a human’s sensuality is one of the biggest characteristics that is human.

Being a member of the classroom did not automatically mean a student would succeed in being accepted into a Next Level crew, what Do called Ti, his Heavenly Father’s crew. The classroom was simply the training ground for such crew membership and even for some of those that stayed in the classroom through their exit, they would have to have more opportunity to demonstrate their trustworthiness to be included in a functioning Next Level crew, though there were also in between tasks given some that were not quite fully trustworthy but had demonstrated the desire to be having stuck it out through training programs on Earth, (or on whatever planet that was serving as a garden for the growth of souls before the Earth became that prime location). Do called such in between opportunities like a “domestic” type of task as it didn’t hold the same amount of responsibility one would be expected to live up to when on a Next Level crew assignment. It didn’t mean those serving the Next Level in that domestic capacity did not have responsabilities and that the tasks they performed were not very important to the Next Level. It had to do more with whether or not these could mess up the overall garden program or not should they fail to perform to the standards of the Older Members in charge of any crewmember’s performance. We understood that Lucifer was one such in between student, along with, as was told 1/3 of the graduation classroom in which he had been a student. His domestic crews primary tasks had to do with Watching. In other words, he was an observer of some aspects of the humans. I don’t think he would have been trusted to be a messenger(angel) though. Ti and Do never to my knowledge said.

But the reason I said that the classroom had it’s advantages, in terms of gaining control over our human behaviors, such as sensuality was because it was a monestery in every sense of the word, minus the religious trappings and/or dogma to include doctrines specific to it’s sect or denomination or belief system. Note that all religious/spiritual belief systems, like Hindu, Budhist, Judaic, Christian, Islamic, have their equivilent monestic adherants and they all have in their records very similar or even exact standards that become considered to be a class or caste unto themselves. However, as strange as it may seem, controlling the vehicle alone is not the ultimate criteria for eventual membership in the Next Level. The criteria is more established in to WHOM we are controlling the vehicle for. Note, in the record of the teachings of Jesus, how often he said something to the affect of, “for the Kingdom of Heaven’s sake”, which has multiple applications.

First off, Jesus (as Do also said/demonstrated) all along said he was working/serving his Father. He layed down his life because his Father told him to. He told his disciples/students all the things His Father gave to him to give to them. He was demonstrating giving his all not because he personally excelled by doing so, but because he genuinely loved his Older Member and wanted to please Him, follow all of his instructions/commandments as best he could, because that is the task a Younger Member of the Next Level accepts from their Older Member as Jesus said about his turning himself into the so called authorities in which he knew he would have his physical body killed, certainly a type of suicidal action to take voluntarily, yet the Luciferians have seen to it that this fact, among Christians is one of the least examined/understood aspects of the real Jesus/Father Kingdom of God Older Member/Younger Member relationships. It was the task Jesus had accepted and therefore a big part of the reason he came in the first place though it was still his challenge to accept and perform because there is nothing pleasant about subjecting one’s vehicle to those that know no better, who act as robotic animals under the influence of the Luciferians, whom are their Lords and of their genetic ancestry.

We, in Ti and Do’s classroom, as was the case for those with Jesus as with those with Moses were pulled out of their old world (one form of what has been termed rapture), depending on the stage of the classroom, as in the Jesus and Ti & Do trimester stages, it was required to leave all behind to follow these Older Members from the Next Level(Kingdom of God) and to do so literally, physically and mentally as the opportunity presents itself.

To be honest, at that time in September of 1975 when I was pulled out of my world, I don’t recall being told that I would need to become fully celebate in body and mind. I just knew this was expected though I wasn’t that versed in why. This is because I was not operating on my own power entirely. When I say, “I” I am speaking as the mind of the physical vehicle. Early on Ti and Do used the term “Mind” as equivilent to Soul. The Soul is actually the container or pocket that has it’s own set of programs. Mind is information, data, but not just dry, as it has it’s own associated power sort of the way data on a remote computer or cell phone signal is of one frequency while it’s transportation is provided on yet another higher carrier frequency, but when that Mind is from the Next Level it is in an entirely different league than it’s counterpart, human mind as it is what was termed in religious literature as “Holy” Mind. (The Greek word pneuma synonyms are spirit, soul, mind, breath, discarnate spirit/ghost, a ghost representing the container, either the human brain centered container the flesh wraps around or the Next Level “Soul” container that the flesh also wraps around).

So the additional power that was made available to my vehicle (and the soul it was given before that or right at that time) was the presense of another Soul, but one that had added to it’s initial makeup because it came from a vehicle that was in the same position I (and now you) were in, but during a previous time when a Next Level representative came and took over a human vehicle designed for Him, named Jesus, OR the origin of that Soul that was present with me then actually had it’s beginning, even before the Jesus experience, thus for instance during the Moses experience. So the Soul now can have had it’s origin prior to Jesus and even prior to Moses trimesters.

The way the task is setup is that each time a member of the Next Level comes and in this undercover way, not blatently who they are, which provides the existing vehicles the challenge of responding on their Mind’s lead as opposed to needing some physical proof before taking certain steps which would be the case for all those vehicles that didn’t have the same preparation beforehand, that includes the Next Level mind that becomes embedded in the genetic strain itself, having in it’s root system the real experience of a previous member from the Next Level that if they accept then and receive a Soul, as it is all going though the existing brain, it is saved in that vehicles genes and then passed on to future leaves (human being offspring, whether by human reproduction or by their telling of their experience that is then told again and again and again which becomes part of our subconscious mind).

Thus my vehicle and many vehicles to date are the product of all that’s come to their genetic strain throughout history. That’s why someone can hynotically regress someone and they will describe seeing someone in a distant time period and if for instance that distant time period was in Rome, they might describe Ceasar or Cleopatra, because in those genetically embedded memories they knew these were the leaders then and they could easily come away with thinking they were that personality in a past life. Ti and Do joked about this, saying they never could understand how there could be so many who claim to be Cleopatra, and ended up realizing the mechanics of the genes in this regard. And of course associated with the genes is the programming the genes were established by that left the more physcially dense vehicle when the vehicle died and became a moreorless floating program that sought to time share with whatever human living computer would host them. Thus in this way, the actual human Mind called Cleopatra could, if it was allowed by the Next Level, associate itself with the humans of it’s choice, but it’s not a conscious choice anymore, in the same way we think of consciousness. They are programmatically drawn to whatever human host can serve them by putting into motion their programming. Thus someone like Cleopatra’s Mind/spirit (that may or may not have been a Soul) would seek out a human vehicle that had the same equivilent social status as the Cleopatra program had become established from thus a Queen or President or high official or perhaps even an actor who is in their mind trying to become Cleopatra for a part, that the program Cleopatra could be drawn to as there is a type of address to a name, though its effectiveness in drawing a specific spirit named Cleopatra seems to also tie into what that name represents as well.

So the same thing is the case for all of us. We all in that way have had past lives, our ancestors lives, as recorded in the genes that were passed on one way or another.

Ti and Do called this the mechanism of how the Next Level prepares vehicles to receive Souls who are coming up in their grade in the Next Level’s school. However, the Luciferians come in immedieatly after each rep from the Next Level has left and seeks to distort what the Next Level provided. Thus we see the belief in reincarnation that generally says that we are each a spirit or soul and we decide which body to incarnate into and in this way, die and are reborn, die and are reborn and have to keep coming back until we have reached enlightenment.

What they don’t know is that yes, this is the general framework to where each time a new leaf is born off of a vine it’s a new human vehicle but the mind of that new vehicle is also new, though has it’s past leaf experiences in it’s gene bank as opposed to the spirit being an individual that seperate from the vehicle returns. In actuality, when we die if we hadn’t established a link with representatives from the Next Level, speaking to a time when such a rep is physically present, then we remain discarnate and don’t generally go anywhere, but stay around and seek to influence existing living humans to do the same things that now dead human always liked to do.

Thus whether Ti and Do spoke at that first meeting about the students need to become celebate or not, had little to do with my knowing I would have to be celebate. That knowing came from the prep of the genetic strain, by the Next Level during previous rep incarnations going back who knows how far but in general to Moses.

Now to the specifics of what Ti and Do shared to try to control the vehicle’s desire for sensuality.

As I’ve shared, we all started off with a big boost as there was more power associated with our vehicle upon meeting up with Ti and Do’s mind and a more experienced Soul that had accumlated some of that same Next Level mind though their prior experience in a vehicle under the teachership of then, Father and Son in whatever trimester(s).

For the first nine months I can’t say I had any desire at all to contend with though I had been in the habit of giving into my sensuality regularily, even daily or every other day before that, as my vehicle was just 24 so was still in it’s prime by human perspectives. Ti and Do partnered me with a young woman my age, whom I spent that entire time with but who in general my vehicle wasn’t attracted to, but I recall during that time with her feeling a little twinge of interest a couple times. However, knowing that was not in the program, I did not linger on those twinges.

Ti and Do did not give us direct guidelines toward remaining celebate until we’d been in the classroom for nearly a year, except by saying any sexuality was not permitted and that infractions were not tolerated. And there were infractions by some during that time, of which I didn’t know about until years later as I was not in any kind of overseer or helper task assignment that would have put me in touch with Ti and Do more until many years later in my participation.

They did have a time period in that first 6 months of the “classroom”, (what Ti Do called their student experience, though it was more like an experiential lab using normal life suporting tasks as the lab props and testing ground) period where those who were called “helpers” sat with each in member in the group they were Ti and Do’s helpers for. There were about 6 groups of 12 or so members and then a group of 4 or 6 that stayed in Ti and Do’s campsite area as at this time we lived in the Wyoming woods, in Veedavou Camping area in the Medicine Bow National Forest that’s just east of Laramie. When those who were assigned as Helpers of the group I was in sat with me individually (not in partnerships, as we were all with each partnership having their own tent), they didn’t get into talking about sensuality. They just seemed to be gathering information of what was on our minds. I don’t doubt that many situations arose from these talks among the groups as after these meetings Ti and Do called a meeting in which they said that some in the group had participated in sexuality and marijuna use and that niether was permitted to be in their classroom so those involved needed to leave or commit to ceasing such activities.

I later learned that the “helpers” assigned to my group were some of the ones that had had sex in the camp. Thus being assigned what seemed like a special task, as they did visit with Ti and Do in their camp so had more contact with them, was in no wise an indicator of someone more along in their “process” as Ti and Do called it – later known to be the same thing as the “overcoming”, Process. Ti and Do rarely used stock religious terminology, which is part of prophecy that they would speak in new tongues(language) which pertains to being different terminology/language that was both “plainer” to understand in a real way instead of having the more mystical or hidden meaning that the terms Jesus used were morphed or distored into. For instance, look how many people claim to be going to heaven when they die, yet have not “overcome the world”. Jesus said he “overcame” the world, which by the way in Greek equally means to have “conquered”. And of course overcoming isn’t just reserved for direct students of Jesus and/or Ti and Do. Many who are not in such a classroom experience are still in their own degree of classroom as the entire society stems from the past interactions with the Next Level reps that carry down to our laws, though mixed with the Luciferian distortions and inconsistancies and extremes and profiteering related to those laws. Ti and Do always said that being in their classroom, was simply an “accellerated process/program”. It is plain to see for those with eyes to see, willing to look at and/or having some common Next Level sense that Jesus wasn’t “doing it (overcoming) for us” but was overcoming to show us HOW. We had to do the serious WORK ourselves which is also evidenced in the first three chapters of the Book of Revelations…”to those who overcome, I will give…eternal life, etc.” If he did it for us then why this major inconsistancy. Then again, how do we define “overcoming”. The gospels are full of examples we must do to earn the wages, yet many Christians think if we TRY to hard, like attempting to be celebate suggests to them, then we are trying to earn our way to God when they then say is actually not accepting that God’s love is a gift and is therefore a type of insult to God. Wow, what a twist of reality as why would we get this huge reward simply for believing. Well, the fact is, that belief alone (in the current rep and all that they represented to us) is the initial criteria to get a soul “saved” but saved is at best only an entrance exam to the first trimester. It’s guaranteed to result in being born into the Kigndom of Heaven but not without having proved oneself worthy by many opportunities thereafter.

By the way, there is nothing holding someone back in their growth. No one is forced to stay at a certain grade level, so to speak. One can at any point learn all the lessons they can. But learning in terms of understanding and learning related to how well we control our suit of clothings (vehicle) are two different things and learning in how we do it all for our Older member as opposed to earning it for our own well being/reward are things that do take some time at the wheel to build our “muscles” from. Ti said, our constant diligent fight to control every thought and action of our vehicle is an exercising of what is equivilent to a genuine muscle, part of the Soul body. She said, that is actually who we are. WE are that muscle and she and Do called it the switch, the decider. We each decide what thoughts, behaviors and ways, words and actions we will embrace as our own by entertaining/exercising them. Ti and Do said that we are not responsible for the thoughts we have, good or evil, but we are responsible for the thoughts/actions we entertain/exhibit for those are what we become.

So what we are all in process of to the degree in which we enact it and entertaining of thoughts is an enactment that can have physical manifestations, though subtly still rather immedieately and more major ramifications by continuous entertainment thereof eventually, is building our MIND. We can build it from rock, the Next Level Mind or from any other material that will never stand up to the storms that will eventually rage on, that are given to us to experience so we can grow from them. When I say, given to us, I’m not saying the Lord specifically arranges for very difficult to handle things to happen to us in life. They know that difficult things will happen to all of us because the planet wasn’t designed to work as a perfect heavenly environment or else no one would ever be willing to outgrow it to learn that there is yet a next evolutionary strata to life that’s above human. Thus the so called naturally programmed mechanisms to include the allowance of the Luciferian advasaries (satans) are given to us so we can rise to dealing with them by asking the help of the Next Level in whatever terminology we grow up with understanding as the Next Level. Ti wrote this paper called, “The Power of Goodness”. I belive it’s on the heavensgate.com web site. (while I’m on it, did you ever leave an email message at heavensgate.com – and if so would you mind sharing the jist of the message. I know the person managing the site and knew that they did not often respond to emails, so this is just a curiosity if you did attempt communication there and if so in what way).

So perhaps in 1977 but probably early that year, Ti and Do brought us the lesson that said, “Not only do you need to maintain the celebacy of sensuality, but speaking primarily to sexuality, you also need to maintain celebacy in your thoughts, which I’ve already touched upon, but up until that point, it wasn’t as clear that this was a needed step to incorporate. At that time they gave us some techniques, one of which was called, “putting up a blank card”. When one received a thought and/or associated image that they new was of a sexual nature, you’d imagine a blank card going up in your mind. But a key to the success of this little technique is to move on in your mind and/or body to something else, which is in coordination with issuing a command to the “influence”, the discarnate spirit/entity/program that is often responsible for thoughts, (though we establish our own MIND’s habit in thinking as well, that becomes our programming) to get away, to get the hell away, to skat, to be gone and they didn’t say what we could or could not say or think or envision in the commanding it to go away. We could say, in the name of Ti and Do get out of here. (I don’t know if saying “in the name of Jesus get out of here” would have been appropriate). I only say that for two reasons. One is, if the same Soul and his Father are with you why would you drum up the last name/address used 2000 years ago. Isn’t that like thinking Ti and Do’s names are not equivilent. Now Ti and Do didn’t explain all this. This is from my mind. What I do know though is that a huge part of the overcoming process in physically being with Older Members, and this applies any time we are with Older Members which you, your soul will experience if you continue to seek it, though after the recycing has sufficiently annialiated the weeds and traces of their world, is to embrace only what the Older Members give us. However, they didn’t give us every thought we could use. It’s what proves useful to the task and the task is to get the influence out of one’s head. And it doesn’t really matter if it really is a discarnate as Do was also aware that the Luciferian space aliens have ways to project thoughts on people they want to influence/manipulate. And it’s not important, if it is a discarnate influnece to think that influence has occupied our body. They didn’t say how far that influence got into one’s space. All I do know is that it needs to be “nipped in the bud” in the words of Ti and Do and once one has issued that command and put up a blank card, it’s move on time, shift one’s eyes away from what may have physically stimulated the thought and put one’s eyes, ears and mind on the task at hand, whether that’s dancing or basketball or gymnastics or whatever. Then when it comes back as it will, do it again. Do it as many times as you need to.

When these influences came upon us continuously Ti called it “bombardment” and said if you feel worn out by it, then ask the Next Level for a rest from it. I don’t know if that will exactly apply the same way now, but in the classroom Ti and Do told us that each member was actually assigned an advasary and they called that advasary our personal “booger”, yes, sounding like the nose booger. Ti and Do did have their vehicle’s Texas humor from the era in which their vehicles grew up and it was often corny sounding to those of us with vehicles from other areas. By the way, they wouldn’t have chose what were considered “curse” words to dispell an influences presense. It’s not that they were prudes to such words, like the f word and others. It’s that these words are crude and meaningless and for whatever reason didn’t want us to use them, nor did we use slang. I’m not saying at this time in each of our human surroundings anyone who uses such words, even those who believe in Ti and Do are sinning by doing so. Sinning actually means missing the mark. So anything is a missing of the mark, in other words missing the intended goal set for us by the Next Level.

However, we can become glued to considering every procedure in the classroom a sin to not adhere to and I don’t know if that would be Ti and Do’s intention exactly. Perhaps it’s fine but what I think of when I see all the procedures Moses instigated as problems arose and He sought help from his Older Member and then brought the help he received to the people, as that information was written and retranslated, it became more of the focus than the main commandments given directly by the Lord, Moses Older Member. Thus if you don’t trim your beard by squaring it off, then you’d be sinning, which I think is ridiculus UNLESS you are one in that classroom. Then, as it’s essential to begin to look to our Older Member for virtually everything, even that tiny procedure that may have no seeming practicallity to it, but provided a certain degree of conformity to many whom hated conformity, thus because important, though at this time becomes a prop that announces to whoever might witness us, that “I am a disciple – treat me special” whether they think that consciously or subconsciously. Of course being seen as special for such a display would not be the case now in regards to Ti and Do. Any display of belief in them will be seen as a dangerous thing to do, but at the same time opens the door for some to seek what is meant by whatever way some choose to advertise or mark themselves as belonging to Ti and Do. I bring this up only because of one individual new believer I know who had a related to Ti and Do and/or Heaven’s gate tatooed on his hand and had a big patch put on his jacket saying Heaven’s Gate. I can’t say whether Ti and Do would approve of that, but it is not without precedent as Do and students did have patches prepared that they all wore that stated that they were an “away team”, which comes from the Star Trek “away team” television show that was regular viewing in the classroom during he 1990’s especially the 2nd Generation series.

Part of the point I’m attempting to make here is that when the next classroom starts, after the recycling period, an Older Member, presumably Do will return but it’s altogether possible Do may be playing the unseen Lord role and Do would have picked one of his new graduate student, younger members to play the role of say, Moses that may be worked up to by being the equivilent of Enoch and/or Abraham, but what we are referring to is the Soul taking charge of those vehicles to begin to relate to the human vehicles that to some degree may have a carry over of understanding about the Next Level, having come from this and previous trimester experiences. At that time, when any kind of group is formed around that incarnate Older Member (to us), a certain set of rules will be given and it will closely resemble the ten commandments as they have been called. Then as they exist together as a community when students have problems with one another and do things the Next Level feels they need to learn to change or do better, they will be given more rules, laws and what Ti and Do called “procedures” that can be anything from how to clean the toilet in detail to how to cook foods, what’s better to eat, who to form unions with. Now this is assuming it would follow a similar path to the last record we have but I could be altogether wrong about that. It could be setup in a completely different way that I can’t fathom at this time because it’s not my task.  However, I do believe it can help us to understand the “way” the garden is grown, at least from our historic record because that helps program our vehicles in what is possible or likley even, so that when our Souls are looking for a vehicle to come into with our Mind, one that has this info in their subconscious mind will be a better (TiDo word)”Match”. But in closing regarding our language some words I believe Ti and Do had said were simply “not becoming of a member of the Next Level”.

Back to sensuality overcoming…Ti and Do instigated females wearing short hair, no short dresses, no tight clothing, things that hide the shape of the vehicle and show little skin, all as attempts to not put males to the test more than they will otherwise be. Sounds like the Muslim Berka right. Well, Do did say that the humility and reverence for God(Allah) and their overall continuation of “modesty” puts them in better stead in relationship with the Next Level because that’s where that idea came from as did all things. Now one could say, it’s a way of telling others they are better because they are demonstrating that modesty, etc. But if most everyone is doing it, then that argument doesn’t hold water and anyway, that is a technique that can help others and also themselves, not the same in my mind, though I could be wrong as all those who tout themselves as religious or spiritual leaders that many flock to and believe regardless of whether or not they are actually sharing much of what Jesus said and did, often giving more credance to what Paul said and Paul was according to Do taken over by the Luciferians. Thus he was the first major manefestation of the beasts coming out of the bottomless pit, let loose after Jesus exited physically, which was then called AntiChrist. So all those Christians that claim that AntiChrist hasn’t yet come, are as the Jews were 2000 years ago, in the dark completely. In fact many of todays biggest leaders in Christianity may very well be the genetic descendants of the high priests and pharisees and Scribes that were the biggest proponents in the killing of Jesus and his disciples. Jesus said the just and the unjust would “stand up again”(resurrect) in the age to come. That use of the english word “Resurrection” was certainly not his saying the unjust would be in the harvest, what many Christians teach is the meaning of resurrection because they fear thinking of it as Souls coming back as that would sound too Hindu or Buddhist and Luciferians have many of them convinced that only they are the “chosen”, reminicent of the Jewish mindset 2000 yrs ago that prevails today not only with the religious Jews but with sects in all the religions. And from this latest arrival of the reps from the Next Level, we see those that are moreorless included in the category of “new age” who have embraced the idea that all religions are centered in truth so that each religions founder was an equivilent avatar or messiah or Christ or master or enlightened one or ascended master, assigning those titles to people who are simply the priests, monks, nuns, teachers of their cultures history, pastors, reverends, rabbi’s, yogi’s and the like as if they are the descendents of whoever marked their religion’s beginning and that by teaching this kind of meditation or that mantra saying or singing along with renunciation of certain human pursuits, even of family, they are on the path to the God head, christ consciousness, universal mind, making the premise that the planets were creatively designed by detail orientated crewminded scientist astronauts with physical bodies they power with their mind so no longer require food or sleep and operate 24/7 doing all sorts of real tasks, traveling, working in labs, in all sorts of departments of their choosing with comrades they think of as family, who all used to exist at the human equivilent level, more and more an obserd reality, because the Luciferians in times past to present has got them thinking of themselves as able to acheive the maximum consciousness and eternal life by perfecting their techniques and giving up materialism and even becoming a avid humanitarian.

Conviently a real many membered real Kingdom of God(s) (as Jesus said even the least in the Kingdom in the Heaven’s is greater than the greatest human) has been taken out of the Equasion. This point of view is what dominates the space aliens evident through at least three groups that have human contactees working on their behalf to garner human support and allegience from those human plants that are many times most in line to conceive of the reality of the Next Level and they each believe in Jesus and quote a few things Jesus said which by the way they misquote him on and take him out of context, the same way many Christain teachers do because they are pawns of the Luciferians and thus the false prophets in sheeps clothing.

And these have made sensual – sexuality one of their practices and techniques to awaken the Kundilini, the serpent force within and they are correct in that. It makes one a slave to giving away our force that in so doing reduces one’s ability to SEE more of reality, gluing one to the Earth which at best puts one in the spirit world without any lifeline thinking the spirit world around Earth, though may extend way past the firm surface is their pleasure to be free within, that is until the Next Level decides it’s time to lock them up again, but I believe to all the pre-existing Luciferians, they are sucked into the core of the planet to be consumed, turned into another element while a new batch of Luciferians are kept to be loosed at a future time to serve the Next Level’s upcoming garden soul plants. This new batch of Luciferians may be the minds of certain humans who at this moment are building underground bunder like cities to survive within and the current Luciferians know the time is short before what they think of as simply another alien race returns. They don’t think there are Above Human beings or if they do, don’t think one has to go through the program of this other group to become one. In other words they lost their ability to perceive what is most real, thus condemning themselves in the process.

When I meet people one on one and feel to say something to them that if they show interest may lead me to bring up Ti and Do, I rarely talk about the upcoming recycling. First off I don’t know how far in advance it will be underway. Actually I believe it will be gradual up until a point and then it will be increased many times over so we can’t even fear it and the Next Level may preserve some physical vehicles that can tell others what happened, at a time when many will be more accepting of the truth that now few care to embrace. I don’t know but this is what I feel has been indicated by the historic record with what little Ti and Do said about it.

But before I close this writing, a little more on controlling the vehicle’s sensuality. No matter what you decide to do, realize that you still may have a certain amount of sensual feelings to contend with. In the classroom, for me, it didn’t seem that hard to maintain celebacy. I began to feel a degree of pride in not giving into it. Various classmates would report in “slippage meetings” times when Ti and Do had us come together to express ways in which we “missed the mark” since the last slippage meeting. They called “sin” or missing the mark a “slip”. The format of a meeting, that Ti and Do never attended, but that Ti and Do received a report of, was that each classmate was assumed to have a slippage, as if they didn’t they did not have high enough standards for their behavior and ways as for students and even for Next Level members they know they can always grow to more like their Older Member who seeks to be more like their Older Member up to the Chief who Do said we would understand more about where he came from once we are members of the Next Level but that the human brain was not wired to comprehend that now. When it came to the subject of sexuality, as sensuality actually includes additional sensory responses. For instance an angry outburst is a sensory response. Even being awed by a sunset is a form of sensuality and it’s not like those forms are prohibited. It’s just that there are all sorts of things that will awe us throughout the universe those who graduate will begin to experience and feelings are a part of these but it will not be a feeling stimulated by a physical perception, but rather one stimulated by one’s Mind. It’s not like one can’t enjoy a sunset. It’s how dramatic an enjoyment it needs to be to FEEL and one can become addicted to strong feelings of the vehicle just as easily as one can become addicted to the feelings from the use of certain substances or foods or sex or power or religious fevor.

The Next Level works with us as long as we wish to look to and try to work with them by changing what we do to improve our control over our vehicle. Thus if one was in a situation that continuously tested someone in their desire to control their vehicles sensuality then they might need to change that situation. For instance if we were partnered with someone in the class we were attracted to, we could say something to Ti and Do and they might change the partnership or they might ask if it’s something we can handle, because sometimes for certain tasks a certain partnership did the best job together. But if one partner said they kept on falling short on the control they wished to have, then Ti and Do would probably change the partnership to give that person a breather so they could potentially return to that situation or the equivilent one without having so much to deal with. However, Ti and Do always said that we shouldn’t test ourselves. For instance, you don’t intentionally put yourself in a situation you know could be very difficult to see if you will pass or fail. Now, once you have a degree of control, you may find what used to attract you doesn’t anymore. Do said to him, seeing a female’s breast that used to attract him stimulates as much feeling as if he was looking at a grapefruit. For a long time we rarely were tested by things blatently sexual. Of course those with jobs in the world, as I often had, had more interactions with humans and at times that became challenging. I recall cooking at a country club and a young waitress hit on me a bit. I wanted nothing to do with her. She was actually cute to my vehicles eyes and later, I was challenged to think of having started something up with her but when I would sense that throught trying to manifest in my head I’d cut it off. It got to the point that I could cut off many thoughts part way into their expression in my head and then to a point that I could cut it off before it registered as a thought. I believe Ti called that “smelling the influence coming”. She never explained that term of “smelling an influence”. Actually, influences can pick up aroma’s in a room they are in and then come to you and bring that smell with them. They do have a physical nature as do all things as all things are molecularly interfaced to us, through us, and around us all the time. We exist in a sea of frequencies and molecules.

At the same time that we can grow to become keener to when any influence is approaching us, that sensitivity also means, if we slip and don’t nip a thought in the bud, even a tiny, tiny image can stimulate a significant hormonal response from our vehicle. One day while I was in a car on the way to that same country club cooking job, it was winter and I was a passenger and I looked out the window and saw a woman walking. She had a coat on but my vehicle felt an attraction to her and immedieatly I could feel a gland somewhere in my reproductive organs operate as if it was squirting out a hormone. I’m not saying my vehicle had an orgasim. When this kind of thing occurred, it meant it would be followed eventually with further temptation and could result in a nocternal emmission of fluids. We had procedure for dealing with nocternal emmissions. For one, it wasn’t considered a slippage. However, being permissive of thoughts, images that it seemed to me led up to the nocternal emmission certainly would have been considered to be a slippage. But what Do said about nocternal emmissions were not to feel guilty about having had one. Just treat it as a relief valve. You try to do your best to keep your mind free from the sexual influences in thoughts and/or images as well as not permitting yourself to touch yourself on your plumbing (as Do called it) in a sensual way that is, because we had no procedure for urination except to do so sitting down, which I don’t exactly know the reasons for though think one reason was to keep from splashing urine on the seat that people would sit on later. We also had a procdure when showering or sponge bathing each day to use a washcloth as opposed to using one’s hand to spread soap over one’s body. I never did know why this was a procedure but of late suspected it was yet another way to guard against having sensual feelings simulated, for as I’m sure you know, touch of any kind on self or another can become very erotic.

What many people don’t know is that celebacy, at least for myself and I believe others in a sense becomes harder and harder to maintain because the vehicle becomes more and more sensitive thus what would have been a small stimulus while very sexually active can trigger huge feelings very quickly.

When I fell by giving into sensuality with myself, I didn’t even touch myself and my vehicle had an orgasm. By the way, even talking like this was not procedure. For instance if someone did slip and masturbated, which occasionally did occur, as it was reported at first, but then Do discontinued reporting them because in the reporting some said they felt stimulated. So we had a procedure that if you slipped in a sensual way, that’s all you would say. The word sex was not procedure to express for that reason. Words stimulate thoughts and thoughts stimulate feelings and feelings build to their expression. For instance, one can feel sad but if they linger on that sadness, can become depressed and before long, have a short fuse or begin to weap at the strangest time that doesn’t seem like came from the sadness or depression.

I did always feel guilty when I had a nocternal emission but Ti nor Do ever gave me reason to feel that way, unless one wants to conclude having rules against sexuality of any kind as reason to feel guilty having given into it. Giving into sexuality was considered to be allowing the thought and/or feeling to linger with us. What would occur if it’s allowed to linger past it’s initial expression in our head, is it becomes harder to get rid of the longer we entertain it.

At one point, Ti and Do bought the males underwear that was of a jockey style/cut as they felt if the vehicles testicles were kept extra warm, as from being closer to the body, it would reduce one’s production of testosterone as opposed to allowing the testicles to hang free. So we got used to wearing tight underwear.

Even though we were guarded against sexuality in all shapes and forms, we did go to the movies once every week or two. Ti and Do always previewed a movie and if they liked the message, they’d schedule it for us. Sometimes there would be a sexual scene or some nudity, womans breast shown to which Ti would tell us ahead of time, there is a little nudity or a brief scene that if you feel challenged or bothered by, just turn your head away or close you eyes when you see the scene starting. I don’t think I did a good job in that. It was one of those times I listened to my vehicle and/or it’s influenes that said, “you can handle it” so I’d watch it and that image would plague me thereafter, but it gave me practice shutting it out. Looking back, I did a terrible job maintain celebacy of mind. Of body, up until I began to give in totally and repeatedly, I had never masturbated or touched myself with intent to stimulate self. I would often wake up with an errect penis and I did awaken at times with my hands in my pants but never had I consciously permitted that kind of physical stimulus. I did however permit mental stimulus. For instance when I had any opportunity to look down a females shirt, I have to admit I was hardpressed not to look. Sure, I’d look and then turn away and then look again and I at times got very permissive of that. In the class there were only rare occasions when I’d have that opportunity but at my job I had more opportunities and at times that was with female classmates who I worked on the job with. In the early days I also had a problem. Whenever a female would bend down with her butt facing me, my dog vehicle would look. I did get control over doing that but could have done better.

Ti and Do also examined what we ate keeping in mind that some foods seem to stimulate one’s libido. And at one point we had herbs that were known to help curb libido. Do would use himself as a guinea pig for these and depending on his response he’d either give it to a few or not.

At one point Do didn’t want to interfer with what may have been the main method to stimulate some building their mind muscle to keep out sensual thoughts. This was on his mind up until he decided to let some who had been pressing him to allow them to have themselves castrated (surgically removing the testicles that stops most testorterone production). The two who were pressing him were srrody and myself. Srrody and I ended up tossing a coin as to who would have the procedure first. I lost the toss so Srrody went first. It was an internal job. Lvvody was a registered nurse and she worked with a doctor that performed regular orchectomies, the removal of testicles due to testicular cancer. She was his assistant on the surgury. She had been an assistant to many surgeon’s. But as it turned out being an assistant is not quite the same as being in the drivers seat. Do had been considering having himself neutered/castrated for years before then and through Lvvody had gathered all the neccesary tools. They created a surgically sterile room and Do decided after years of talking about it primarily with three students, though he told everyone in the class when he was considering the operation for himself. And at that time he had had a nocternal emmission that he told all the males about. So because he was thinking of it for himself so he’d be free of the interference it caused as he had to maintain his celebacy just as we did, he presented it to the males as an option that if he did it, some of us could consider it. It was never a pressure. When he brought up the option to the males and asked if anyone had any reservations about having such a procedure, hvvody did have reservations. He wasn’t scheduling it and it never was required but being willing to do so, was part of willing to give one’s all. Hvvody was very upset by this consideration though we considered a lot of things we didn’t end up doing. In any case a few months later, Hvvody openly decided to leave the classroom. I said openly because some left in the middle of the night for whatever reason.

A few years later after Srrody had he operation and there was a complication as the testicle sack was not draining so it blew up like a small balloon, but we took him to a hospital and they easily corrected the problem but Do was feeling like he’d blundered by permitting the operation so cancelled mine though I was still willing to have it done. Right before srrody and I tossed the coin, which was the same hour that the operation was to begin, Do who was present asked me if I had any reservations. I told him that my vehicle was not looking forward to it, but I was overriding my vehicle.

Looking back on it, I think that I wasn’t fully committed to Do in the way Ti felt was most healthy. Ti was outside her vehicle then but we were approved to talk to Ti directly and this was after srrody was castrated which he was always elated with having done. I sort of yelled in my head to Ti that I wanted faster growth and that I wanted a task like Jesus or Do had.

From that moment on I had attacks of sensual influences and images like I’d never experienced over 18 years prior. Every situation I’d experienced was like right on the top of my mind when it came to something sensually stimulating. The time the waitress hit on me, a time when a classmate seemed to be making an advance, the image I’d seen of a topless woman in a movie, the feeling of looking down a woman’s dress to see a little cleavage. It was on my mind as if these circumstances were happening and I became intoxicated by it.

I am certain that Ti simply gave me a stronger booger to test me. I said I wanted faster growth and to do a task like Do so she gave me what I asked. I got to deal with a booger closer to what Do dealt with and I hardly stood a chance. To even ask Ti for such a thing showed my mind was more on what I might become, how special I would then be to be like a Jesus. Ti knew well I had this, “wanting to be seen as something special streak”. She told me that once when she was giving all the students her thoughts of what would keep us off the spacecraft. I had three things she wrote on the list. 1)Likes to be seen as something special 2) A little too pleased with self 3) sarcastic mostly with humans (which had to do with things I’d said to some whom I worked with on the job at the country club and elsewhere). Now I could have rose to the occasion but to be honest I didn’t even seem to have the strength to try.

So all that so called success was cancelled out by one swoop. This is why I said, there was a certain advantage to being in the classroom. Our boogers against us were regulated by the Next Level. I don’t know how that may work now. My personal stature was not raised by having been selected to host a Next Level saved soul’s next trimester experience taking over a human vehicle, though because of all the many opportunities I had where I worked with Do, one on one and as overseer and such I began to think quite a bit about myself, my stature in the class and it was a house of cards that needed to be brought down so I could get real.

Now I’m not so brave as I was then. I do have a certain amount of attachment to my daughter and partner. I could have had myself castrated but havn’t. I could lay down my life but havn’t. I have considered both and the later often but it seems at low points and I don’t want to act out of depression, though that can also become an excuse. When I asked around 2003 if I needed to prepare myself to lay down my vehicle as they did, he came to me in a dream as clear and real looking/feeling as when I was with him in person that very night after asking and said, “Give your life”. That’s just like a member of the Next Level to always leave it in my ballpark, not just tell anyone what to do. The classroom was a little different in that regard as by our presence we were asking to be told what to do, though even still, that was never taken for granted by Ti and Do. When they felt we as a group were not thirsty for the next step, personally &/or as a unit, they would come to us and tell us, they can’t get the next step because we either havn’t fully embraced the last step(s) that in so doing should leave us thirsty for the next step. Ti always compared the classroom to a “piano roll” or the song Old Macdonald’s farm where when one “note” or animal’s voice was completed, it was on to the next and that one would always continue to play all the previously played notes/voices, just adding one more, step by step.

So yes, I failed to graduate with my classroom. Do said, when I was exposing my repeated breakage of vows to be celebate and honest, exposed when we did slip, which I also broke by not revealing my sensuality slippages immedieatly,

I’m not judging myself. I’m just aware that though I have a great deal of information and am actually willing to give my life in belief and support and dissemination of Ti and Do’s information, it shouldn’t be about me. If it is then I still have to overcome this vehicle’s ego and the satisfaction it gets from having had all this Ti and Do experience. I am aware of this vehicle’s ego and I do beat it back when I see that head rising as it has no value to me. When I say, ego, that’s not a term I can recall Ti and Do using. I don’t think beating it back deflates one’s self confidence which has it’s value in the human kingdom while in application to the Next Level needs to be transferred to a type of self confidence that Knows what one doesn’t know and yet knows where to go to learn what one doesn’t know, which is always from one’s Older Member.

By the way, when a young member of the Next Level, there is always an Older Member at the helm of the department, though that doesn’t mean they are standing over you all the time, though one would have grown to not be threatened by that knowing that the Older Member only wants to see the tasks done to their Older Member’s standard. But we will also have other Older Members to work under, so to speak, however will always recognize the Older Member that parented us into the Next Level. And in the Next Level they don’t have to wear stripes to identify who is an Older Member or an Older Member’s Older Member. It simply becomes obvious, though I don’t know that Ti and Do ever said how.

Oh, I did want to mention what Ti and Do said about Fun in the Next Level to my recollection, as they were asked that question at an early public meeting to which they said, (paraphrased); “Yes, there is fun. Horses running in a field together are having fun. But a human observer may not feel that is as much fun for them. Next Level members also have fun. What’s fun is simply different.”

I think of it in the way that any team in any department of life can thrive on being part of something bigger than themselves and being a spoke in an amazing team effort. Next Level members have continuous challenges and experiences. Most want to perform tasks for their Older Members, tasks that do require them to exercise their judgement, trying to use the judgement they think their Older Member might have. Circumstances are forever changing. But Ti and Do said there are certainly times when you’d be looking out the window of a spacecraft and would be amazed at what you could see and times where you could hear the spheres in certain combonations actually making music. It’s far from sitting around on a cloud playing a harp for eternity. Next Level members would be bored by that.

And one more pointer to keeping any influences at bay is to put a label on them. It can be “influence of sensuality” for instance, “get out of here”. Influence of anger…,etc. And one doesn’t have to have an angry sounding response either. Ti said many influences that attacked her she saw and treated like mosquitos. She’s just swat them away with her mind and do so as often as needed to where it didn’t interfer with her task.

Ti and Do had all the influences each student had plus an entire array of influences that specifically went after them. Even at the human level humans who reach some kind of success and/or leadership in any department, and especially when the public is involved have both influences that help them and influences that want to bring them down often because that’s the kind of person they became while alive – highly competitive, envyous of another’s success/accomplishment, greedy for attention and to feel special. That’s why whether it’s in entertainment (sports included), big business, politics or religion, there’s always someone in the wings wanting to get on top and will at times do anything to get there.

Ti and Do had those influences and then all of our influences who hated that we were being convinced to stop the activities they had been and wanted to continue to use us for. And then there were influences that got on the cult bashing bandwagon and the influences against anything not conventional or traditional, or conservative or liberal, on and on. There are influnences that represent every human behavior in mind and body and of course while a human being there are influences that only want to help us. We can talk nice to them. Tell them, we know they mean well, but that they are not needed anymore, that is if we are engaged in overcoming all our humanness. Ti and Do said, while human we will never get rid of all our influences. There are some that even help us to learn to walk, I believe they once said. Influences tend to leave those vehicles that no longer serve them and when they do, those vehicles begin to loose skills and talents and abilities they once had. Many influences and especially Luciferian influences, Souls, whose last vehicle expired/died gravite to those human subjects that have the most influence over other humans and their agendas. Thus famous people and politicians attract an enterage of influences to where a more ordinary human, when they meet one with such an enterage can actually feel the power of the combined influnences that put them on a pedestal and help them be so charasmatic and magnetic. Some humans who attract lots of influences in this way, walk into a room and others can’t not notice them.

In closing, I believe the biggest lesson/opportunity for service at this time is still to share all that Ti and Do said with others and accept the ramifications as few will think what you are saying is a positive. I believe there are only 144 Souls looking for vehicles at this time or that number may encompass the classroom that just exited as well. I could be wrong about that number. But it’s not just as a task for the Next Level that we share all things Ti and Do, it’s because that’s how we prove to the Older Member we are serious about being on their crew. This doesn’t mean put a sign on your head necessarily or bringing up Ti and Do at every conversation. It’s to be treated on a case by case basis. Jesus addressed this more that Ti and Do because they came primarily to bring their previous students to graduation, though now the next class is being prepared, so I presume the same guidelines Jesus gave will apply. Jesus said not to cast pearls before swine. He said go into a town and ask the Father, in our case Do to be directed to anyone that might be receptive. Sometimes someone who is receptive starts off being very argumentative and even disrespectful and contrary, hateful in their language and ways in response to what we share. Those are their influences hating to hear it and of course the vehicle also becomes defensive and fearful of changes as even if someone seems to have a lousy life they can settle into a certain amount of contentment with the life they do have thus any hint of change feels threatening. We certainly don’t want to push ourselves into dangerous circumstances, though if our vehicles are harmed our Soul will certainly not be. Don’t be hesitant to ask Do for anything, help with a medical condition for instance. Income, food and shelter and the like are not needed to be asked for as the Next Level knows well your vehicles’s need for such things.

And finally, the Next Level members don’t need any of us, which is why they never seek to control us or manipulate us. The reason we need to learn to seek their Mind is for our benefit towards eventual graduation not because they like weilding their power as some atheists believe of God. And atheism is not any better or worse pathway than any others. Ti and Do even said that in a real sense atheists who became atheists because of seeing through religion were ahead in a potential progression to Next Level membership, but they had to also be willing to discard their insistance that there is no Above Human kingdom level who orchstrated, developed and down right created our entire reality, mental and physical, even the potential to bite the hand that really feeds us, today as represented by those called Ti and Do.